Old Aircraft - How much longer can they fly?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Aircraft - How much longer can they fly?
In light of the C210 that went down in the Kimberley this morning. It raises the question, how much longer will CASA let these sh*t boxes fly for.
If it was a 30 year old car they would have been scraped long ago. How much longer do we use the excuse that the industry has no money to upgrade the fleets and rely on the exceptional skill of pilots like the fella this morning to keep them in the air.
Will we still be flying these in 50 years, 60 years, 70 years....where do we draw the line.
Interested in your comments.
If it was a 30 year old car they would have been scraped long ago. How much longer do we use the excuse that the industry has no money to upgrade the fleets and rely on the exceptional skill of pilots like the fella this morning to keep them in the air.
Will we still be flying these in 50 years, 60 years, 70 years....where do we draw the line.
Interested in your comments.
Permit me to suggest that if the design is still in use after 30 years, then it is obviously successful. Provided the aircraft is properly maintained it should last a very long time indeed.
How many Cirrus (Cirri?) are going to be around in 30 years time? Plastic(FRP) is rather hard to repair and still maintain original strength.
How many Cirrus (Cirri?) are going to be around in 30 years time? Plastic(FRP) is rather hard to repair and still maintain original strength.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If aircraft are well maintained and preventive engineering carried out to ensure safe operating conditions then age is not a concern.
Consider those vintage aircraft from the two World Wars that still grace the skys
Consider those vintage aircraft from the two World Wars that still grace the skys
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Im not suggesting for a second that the design is inadequate, in fact Cessna designed great aircraft. However like any mechanical thing it wears out. Even the best maintained old machines wear out and at sometime its just time to put them to bed for good. The other trouble is (and not for a second suggesting this is the cause of todays accident) when you have an old machine inadequately maintained, flying around. We all know operators doing this, just no one says anything in case we rock the boat. But back to the point, how long do we fly these old aircraft before they finally suffer fatigue, structural or engine failure. How many times can we rebore that old engine.....
Grandpa Aerotart
Rebore that old engine?
Dude they are still building those engines....it's not a R985 for god sake?
The only part of these 'old aeroplanes' that is original in the basic airframe...if you keep that corrosion free they can not only fly on for another 30 years but look as good as new while they do so.
Dude they are still building those engines....it's not a R985 for god sake?
The only part of these 'old aeroplanes' that is original in the basic airframe...if you keep that corrosion free they can not only fly on for another 30 years but look as good as new while they do so.
As suggested above, it's purely a function of maintenence. As long as the aircraft is maintained as it should be, the aircraft can be flown indefinately. The 172 I currently operate has recently had a rather large sum of money spent on it. It got the ham, cheese and tomatoe. Paint, intereior, engine, the works. It looks better now than it did when it first rolled out the factory door in 1978.
I would still expect it to be operating satisfactoraly in 20 years time, when it will nearly be 50 years old.
The maintenence organisation is the key. Some a very ordinary, most are satisfactory (no better or worse than anyone else) and a very few are exceptional. These are the operators that one must seek out and identify. Happy hunting.
And what will we be flying in 20 to 30 years time?
I reckon the bulk of the GA fleet will be made up of the same Cessna's and Piper's we are flying today. There's nothing on the horizon to replace them.
I would still expect it to be operating satisfactoraly in 20 years time, when it will nearly be 50 years old.
The maintenence organisation is the key. Some a very ordinary, most are satisfactory (no better or worse than anyone else) and a very few are exceptional. These are the operators that one must seek out and identify. Happy hunting.
And what will we be flying in 20 to 30 years time?
I reckon the bulk of the GA fleet will be made up of the same Cessna's and Piper's we are flying today. There's nothing on the horizon to replace them.
Last edited by gassed budgie; 15th Jul 2005 at 14:15.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under the Equator
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish:
There are heaps of old gliders and boats out there made of old style fibreglass still in service.
Composite or Metal, as long as it is looked after, it will last.
The only hard bit about repairing composites as I understand is that there are not enough LAMEs out there qualified on the repairs and that the repair materials have a limited shelf life vs Alclad that can be stored for longer periods.
Go the old 210! - New engine and avionics technology may be the 11:59 savior for a lot of these G.A. veterans.
300hp benz turbo diesel & glass cockpit conversions would still be cheaper than a new C206 or re-born C210.
New 'glass' C206 is about AUD$650,000 vs clapped out C210 with full re-furb (40k), engine conversion (100k-150k) and avionics upgrade (50k-100k)
There is still lots of life in the old girls.
There are heaps of old gliders and boats out there made of old style fibreglass still in service.
Composite or Metal, as long as it is looked after, it will last.
The only hard bit about repairing composites as I understand is that there are not enough LAMEs out there qualified on the repairs and that the repair materials have a limited shelf life vs Alclad that can be stored for longer periods.
Go the old 210! - New engine and avionics technology may be the 11:59 savior for a lot of these G.A. veterans.
300hp benz turbo diesel & glass cockpit conversions would still be cheaper than a new C206 or re-born C210.
New 'glass' C206 is about AUD$650,000 vs clapped out C210 with full re-furb (40k), engine conversion (100k-150k) and avionics upgrade (50k-100k)
There is still lots of life in the old girls.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich-Fine-Green is absolutely right, why would you pay all that money for a new aircraft that does the same job as the old one, especially when it costs half the amount to refurb the old one.
I believe Australias "unique" and remote population distribution would make it had to justify the cost of upgrading to new aircraft. As many have already said if the maintenance of these old girls are kept up to scratch then there should be no problem. On the other hand there are operators out there whose maintenance practices are a little suspect.
I believe Australias "unique" and remote population distribution would make it had to justify the cost of upgrading to new aircraft. As many have already said if the maintenance of these old girls are kept up to scratch then there should be no problem. On the other hand there are operators out there whose maintenance practices are a little suspect.
These old aircraft will continue to fly for a long time as long as :
- dodgy operators still use them
- dodgy operators expect/pressure pilots to fly them with defects
- dodgy pilots fly them with defects and don't write up defects
- dodgy LAME's don't maintain them properly using the excuse "it's a 30 year old plane..."
- dodgy operators still use them
- dodgy operators expect/pressure pilots to fly them with defects
- dodgy pilots fly them with defects and don't write up defects
- dodgy LAME's don't maintain them properly using the excuse "it's a 30 year old plane..."
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's nothing on the horizon to replace them.
Just have a look at the RAA fleet, many of they types there can be registered VH! but who wants all that extra cost!
the 4 seat jabiru series, cruises at 120Kts, 4 seats..... the Cirrus line.....
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under the Equator
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it goes back to the circular problem of not charging enough for the aircraft.
Enough of a reserve needs to be there for either full refurb or replacement over a 10 year period.
(not enough is charged to pay or keep good Pilots either but that's another story).
Enough of a reserve needs to be there for either full refurb or replacement over a 10 year period.
(not enough is charged to pay or keep good Pilots either but that's another story).
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
the 4 seat jabiru series, cruises at 120Kts, 4 seats..... the Cirrus line.....
Cheers, HH.
PS: I do realise these aircraft cost less than $200k, but of the new generation aircraft, nothing with this sort of capacity cost less than 1/2 mil.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PH 298/7.4DME
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lots of life left...!
Yep, for sure!
Even if the insurance company write it off, be sure that Phil T will buy the wreck back and rebuild it in his hangar and send it straight back in to commercial service until its next bingle...just like what happened with the last one.
So, yes, there's plenty of life left in these girls.
520.
Even if the insurance company write it off, be sure that Phil T will buy the wreck back and rebuild it in his hangar and send it straight back in to commercial service until its next bingle...just like what happened with the last one.
So, yes, there's plenty of life left in these girls.
520.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Forgive the slight change of topic but did someone refurbish the Shrikes that were sitting against the fence years ago in Darwhine?
I believe the corrosion from over water flying may have been to much ??
What a bloody superb little plane they are.
And who got the Duke?
I believe the corrosion from over water flying may have been to much ??
What a bloody superb little plane they are.
And who got the Duke?
Just a quick Q. How well do the new “Plastic Planes” handle the dirt and gravel strips? I’m not having having a go at the Cirrus or any other plane (in fact I would love to be flying one) just curious as to the damage caused by the rocks and other bush strip related problems on the lighter airframes and mostly lower wing designs. As I am assuming we are talking about the bush fleet.
Im not lost, Im just not found.
Im not lost, Im just not found.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,980
Received 108 Likes
on
61 Posts
Are'nt there a few B52s still flying with the USAF or NASA or whatever that are pushing 40 years old and still going? Seem to remember an article in some Aviation Journal to that effect.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.