Climbing to LSALT
Thread Starter
Climbing to LSALT
Here is the scenario
You are belting along VFR under a lowering cloud base. Being Instrument rated you decide to upgrade to IFR and climb "above it all". If you are flying at an altitude below IFR LSALT for that area is there any specific criteria you need to meet for reaching LSALT by a certain point or do you use your own "satisfaction" you will not hit anything while climbing in IMC.
Cheers
You are belting along VFR under a lowering cloud base. Being Instrument rated you decide to upgrade to IFR and climb "above it all". If you are flying at an altitude below IFR LSALT for that area is there any specific criteria you need to meet for reaching LSALT by a certain point or do you use your own "satisfaction" you will not hit anything while climbing in IMC.
Cheers
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Unless the rules have changed since I did my IR many moons ago:-
I'm not too sure what the rules are in OZ but, in NZ, you cannot go from VFR to IFR (only the other way round), unless you have submitted a flightplan stating your intentions to proceed IFR from a certain stage of the flight.
If you are not at MSA (Minimum Safe Altitude) you need to either be on a published departure, climbing in accordance with the DME steps (or VORSEC DME steps) or under radar monitoring.
In my opinion, I would never climb through cloud - below MSA unless I had radar monitoring, even if I knew the area, you never know what may be descending in the opposite direction (unless of course u have TCAS).
G.A.Youth
The silver lining in the cloud is usually another aircraft coming th other way.
Both Hills and Mountains have been know to hide out in clouds.
I'm not too sure what the rules are in OZ but, in NZ, you cannot go from VFR to IFR (only the other way round), unless you have submitted a flightplan stating your intentions to proceed IFR from a certain stage of the flight.
If you are not at MSA (Minimum Safe Altitude) you need to either be on a published departure, climbing in accordance with the DME steps (or VORSEC DME steps) or under radar monitoring.
In my opinion, I would never climb through cloud - below MSA unless I had radar monitoring, even if I knew the area, you never know what may be descending in the opposite direction (unless of course u have TCAS).
G.A.Youth
The silver lining in the cloud is usually another aircraft coming th other way.
Both Hills and Mountains have been know to hide out in clouds.
HEALY,
Technical answer is you cannot be below LSALT when IFR unless you meet the requirements of CAR 178
The practical way is to calculate a LSALT from you present position for the length of flight it takes you to get above route LSALT, to use grid LSALT, or to use a GPS derived LSALT, i.e. use a LSALT that can be justified, that takes into account the terrain for the period of the climb until the route LSALT is achieved.
If in doubt, remain VMC, consider altering heading, including 180 degree turn.
Technical answer is you cannot be below LSALT when IFR unless you meet the requirements of CAR 178
The practical way is to calculate a LSALT from you present position for the length of flight it takes you to get above route LSALT, to use grid LSALT, or to use a GPS derived LSALT, i.e. use a LSALT that can be justified, that takes into account the terrain for the period of the climb until the route LSALT is achieved.
If in doubt, remain VMC, consider altering heading, including 180 degree turn.
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Specific criteria to meet to climb to LSA in VFR is outside clouds maintaining vertical and horizontal distance and visibility requirements. I'm sure you already know that.
You can change to IFR from VFR but I dont think ATC will give you IFR clearance till you are above LSALT enroute ( I'll let the ATC people answer that ). But climbing through clouds to get to it under VFR since you cant get IFR yet is out of the question.
In lowering cloud base facing high terrain, I'd do a precautionary search for landing quickly or as SWH said, do a 180 or I'd go for the nearest aerodrome.
Phew, gives me sweaty palms and my adrenaline pumping just thinking about it.
D6
You can change to IFR from VFR but I dont think ATC will give you IFR clearance till you are above LSALT enroute ( I'll let the ATC people answer that ). But climbing through clouds to get to it under VFR since you cant get IFR yet is out of the question.
In lowering cloud base facing high terrain, I'd do a precautionary search for landing quickly or as SWH said, do a 180 or I'd go for the nearest aerodrome.
Phew, gives me sweaty palms and my adrenaline pumping just thinking about it.
D6
Thread Starter
Cheers for the replies, I fly IFR on CHTR just about all the time but saw this as being something I was unfirmiliar with. I see it as possible issue which may face alot of pilots who have , for example a PIFR and will use this method of upgrading.
As far as im aware with IFR upgrades there is times where a VFR departure from my GAAP AD is needed to prevent hour delays and then once clear upgrade to IFR. If you are in a radar area surely a radar controlled climb can be made without to many issues.
As far as im aware with IFR upgrades there is times where a VFR departure from my GAAP AD is needed to prevent hour delays and then once clear upgrade to IFR. If you are in a radar area surely a radar controlled climb can be made without to many issues.
AIP ENR para 4.9
Obstacle/terrain avoidance while below the LSALT/MSA is a pilot responsibility except when the pilot is being radar vectored and has not been assigned the responsibility for maintaining such clearance visually.
We will give you a clearance(if required), but it is your responsibility for terrain clearance til the LSALT/MSA. Some controllers will add on to the clearance "Visual til ....(the radar lsalt) so that you're not in any doubt as to who is responsible for terrain separation til then.
Obstacle/terrain avoidance while below the LSALT/MSA is a pilot responsibility except when the pilot is being radar vectored and has not been assigned the responsibility for maintaining such clearance visually.
We will give you a clearance(if required), but it is your responsibility for terrain clearance til the LSALT/MSA. Some controllers will add on to the clearance "Visual til ....(the radar lsalt) so that you're not in any doubt as to who is responsible for terrain separation til then.
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Stay visual is the key. If you can't then you should have climbed earlier or departed IFR. By this stage the options are all vfr , land in a paddock, another aerodrome, change heading til you can reach LSALT in VMC etc. Unless of course you ask for the IFR upgrade with radar terrain clearence on climb to blah blah blah and they can give it to you.
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So what we are all saying is that climb in IMC below your LSALT is never an option? So how do we do it on departure?
If we fly the area on a fairly regular basis and can see the top of the highest obstacle which is what is being used to calculate our LSALT for example would that preclude a IFR climb because we are below our LSALT? One would think that common sense would prevail and one, having positively established that they were clear of these objects could climb IFR?? Is this not the case?
Take the example of a VFR departure from Jandakott, you may have a cloud base less than 500' AGL over the scarp, but know that there is adequate terrain clearance for an IFR Climb. It is below radar LSALT but achievable safely.
I guess we need to look that one up in the regs.
If we fly the area on a fairly regular basis and can see the top of the highest obstacle which is what is being used to calculate our LSALT for example would that preclude a IFR climb because we are below our LSALT? One would think that common sense would prevail and one, having positively established that they were clear of these objects could climb IFR?? Is this not the case?
Take the example of a VFR departure from Jandakott, you may have a cloud base less than 500' AGL over the scarp, but know that there is adequate terrain clearance for an IFR Climb. It is below radar LSALT but achievable safely.
I guess we need to look that one up in the regs.
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Scrambler,
I know where you're coming from. You are referring to departures and that is in CAR 178. Climbing through it in IFR is fine because it is part of departures but the PIC still has the sole responsibility of terrain clearance until reaching LSA.
As you said, if you are sure that you know the area very well, and can clear the terrain then it's fine for you to climb in IMC.
But what I gather in Healys' question is if you are in an unfamiliar area not knowing if there is high terrain in the next 2 miles because clouds are blocking your vision, would you climb below LSA in IMC and risk it ?
I say no, climb to LSALT in VMC and then change category to IFR.
The other option is ( IF YOU MUST ) is do a 180 on the same track, ask Radar or Centre for traffic in your area, if clear, climb through IMC to get to LSA since your previous track is clear of obstruction at your level. Once LSA is reached, change back to original heading and change to IFR.
A bit unorthodox I know.
Deltasix
I know where you're coming from. You are referring to departures and that is in CAR 178. Climbing through it in IFR is fine because it is part of departures but the PIC still has the sole responsibility of terrain clearance until reaching LSA.
As you said, if you are sure that you know the area very well, and can clear the terrain then it's fine for you to climb in IMC.
But what I gather in Healys' question is if you are in an unfamiliar area not knowing if there is high terrain in the next 2 miles because clouds are blocking your vision, would you climb below LSA in IMC and risk it ?
I say no, climb to LSALT in VMC and then change category to IFR.
The other option is ( IF YOU MUST ) is do a 180 on the same track, ask Radar or Centre for traffic in your area, if clear, climb through IMC to get to LSA since your previous track is clear of obstruction at your level. Once LSA is reached, change back to original heading and change to IFR.
A bit unorthodox I know.
Deltasix
