private IFR.... should i?
Thread Starter
private IFR.... should i?
Howdy folks..
I'm interested in starting the PIFR to give me some margin of safety in dodgy VMC. my question is, do you all think it's worth it? i dont ever plan to fly for a living, so the recency requirements of a CIR would be an issue. has anyone got any stories to tell?
Thanks
Fixa
I'm interested in starting the PIFR to give me some margin of safety in dodgy VMC. my question is, do you all think it's worth it? i dont ever plan to fly for a living, so the recency requirements of a CIR would be an issue. has anyone got any stories to tell?
Thanks
Fixa
PIFR for fun and profit
I would say go for it. Anything is better than nothing, but I would [B]strongly strongly[B] suggest you stick to the currency and recency requirements of the CIR. Remember there is a CAAP which recommends the same. You have, as PIC, a duty of care to abide by these recommendations.
If you cannot do this, dont bother getting a PIFR. It will be a sure way to digging a big hole somewhere otherwise.
Bevan..
If you cannot do this, dont bother getting a PIFR. It will be a sure way to digging a big hole somewhere otherwise.
Bevan..
Absolutely go for it - anything is better than nothing.
My advice is - never ever think of an instrument rating, private or otherwise, as a back up, fall back, fail safe, get out of jail free card, or anything of the sort.
If the flight will with 100% certainty be conducted in good VMC the entire way, by all means flyy VFR. If there is the slightest doubt, through cloud, weather, or even because you'll be flying 400 miles that day, conduct the entire flight IFR. Most of the time you'll wonder why you bothered, but that sure beats flying into the soup and thinking 'yikes.. whats my LSALT' while trying to transition to instruments.
My advice is - never ever think of an instrument rating, private or otherwise, as a back up, fall back, fail safe, get out of jail free card, or anything of the sort.
If the flight will with 100% certainty be conducted in good VMC the entire way, by all means flyy VFR. If there is the slightest doubt, through cloud, weather, or even because you'll be flying 400 miles that day, conduct the entire flight IFR. Most of the time you'll wonder why you bothered, but that sure beats flying into the soup and thinking 'yikes.. whats my LSALT' while trying to transition to instruments.
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I'm not quite so sure. It depends on the individual I think. I had over 1000hrs charter when I started flying IFR and although it didn't pose any problems and I picked it up at the normal rate I didn't feel like I had it down pat until I had been doing it five days a week for a few months. i think as a PIFR pilot you would have to be pretty dedicated to keepiing up with changes in the rules ,and currency, and especially proficiency. I couldn't do it to a level I was happy about if I was working another full time job.
Fixa24....what sort of hours do you have and how often do you fly (if you don't mind me asking).
I've just had a thought.....is a PIFR just for in the cruise or is it for approaches as well? If it is just to cruise when the base is well above MSA then it's a different story....mind you, if the base is that high why go IFR ? Does it give you the same priviledges as a CPL IFR rating with respect to minimas etc?
Fixa24....what sort of hours do you have and how often do you fly (if you don't mind me asking).
I've just had a thought.....is a PIFR just for in the cruise or is it for approaches as well? If it is just to cruise when the base is well above MSA then it's a different story....mind you, if the base is that high why go IFR ? Does it give you the same priviledges as a CPL IFR rating with respect to minimas etc?
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I say do it.. If only to improve your flying.
The PIFR has quite a few components, the core one is en-route IFR with some form of radio navigation. Things like STAR departures, and approaches (NDB/VOR/GPS/ILS) are add-ons.
You'll need about 20 hours of instruction, and a lot of that is navigation and can be done in a sim, but I'd recommend doing as much actual IFR as possible during that phase (with an instructor).
Then there's the ground-based classes.
The PIFR has quite a few components, the core one is en-route IFR with some form of radio navigation. Things like STAR departures, and approaches (NDB/VOR/GPS/ILS) are add-ons.
You'll need about 20 hours of instruction, and a lot of that is navigation and can be done in a sim, but I'd recommend doing as much actual IFR as possible during that phase (with an instructor).
Then there's the ground-based classes.
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I would recommend reconsidering the CIR instead of PIR.
Recency is more difficult with the CIR yes but with the PIR you are not allowed to descend below the LSALT unless you are Visual.
So basically what that means is you will still be very restricted on when you can fly, as I am sure most people will be able to vouch for if you can get below LSALT visually then 9 times out of 10 you would have been able to fly the whole flight visual. The only bonus would probably be for extra long flights, being able to avoid diversions due cloud and I believe the ability to then go VFR on top and use instruments as a primary means of navigation.
Just my two cents but I would look into both options especially considering the cost to get each rating probably wont be too much different in the grand scheme of things.
Zepth
Recency is more difficult with the CIR yes but with the PIR you are not allowed to descend below the LSALT unless you are Visual.
So basically what that means is you will still be very restricted on when you can fly, as I am sure most people will be able to vouch for if you can get below LSALT visually then 9 times out of 10 you would have been able to fly the whole flight visual. The only bonus would probably be for extra long flights, being able to avoid diversions due cloud and I believe the ability to then go VFR on top and use instruments as a primary means of navigation.
Just my two cents but I would look into both options especially considering the cost to get each rating probably wont be too much different in the grand scheme of things.
Zepth
Recency is more difficult with the CIR yes but with the PIR you are not allowed to descend below the LSALT unless you are Visual.
(ie, start with an NDB approach and add others over time)
Bevan..
Thread Starter
Thanks guys...
CASA's literature states that a PIFR with all the FPA's (flight procedure authorisations) is equivelant to a CIR. except for the recency requirements.....
do you think some time every few weeks in the sim running approaches would be good? i dont plan to get all the FPA's, just the IMC departure, DME/GPS arrival, and probably NDB and maybe VOR approaches...
how often, realistically, would i need to run an approach (sim or in flight) to stay relatively safe?
thanks for your time
Fixa 
CASA's literature states that a PIFR with all the FPA's (flight procedure authorisations) is equivelant to a CIR. except for the recency requirements.....
do you think some time every few weeks in the sim running approaches would be good? i dont plan to get all the FPA's, just the IMC departure, DME/GPS arrival, and probably NDB and maybe VOR approaches...
how often, realistically, would i need to run an approach (sim or in flight) to stay relatively safe?
thanks for your time
Fixa
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I am interested to hear the answers to this last question. I would say every couple of weeks if you want to be proficient at handling the approaches with emergencies in poor weather. That is asuming a certain level of competance to begin with. cheers.
Recency...
I have only ever held CIR, and after my last renewal, I was told that holding a CIR also gives the privelliges of a PIFR. Is this true? My point being that for FIXA24, and the original question, if recency will be an issue, and you're only going to be flying privately, the CIR is probably the way to go, for these reasons (and maybe others too):
1) More complete training WRT IFR flight
2) Ability to fly commercially if req'd (subject to licence and recency)
3) Privelliges of PIFR if req'd.
But what is the go with renewals and PIFR? Are they not required? If not, then that's a bit different. After a year, you effectively only have PIFR anyway, or go spend $$$ on a renewal...
I must confess to not being fully up on PIFR (never needed to be).
PLEASE NOTE!! WRT to #3 above, I can only agree with those who have spoken above, if you are proposing an IFR flight, at night or in less than VFR, and you have the SLIGHTEST DOUBT about it, go another day. Or find a friend / aeroclub with a sim and get current.
From an IFR apprentice...
CR.
1) More complete training WRT IFR flight
2) Ability to fly commercially if req'd (subject to licence and recency)
3) Privelliges of PIFR if req'd.
But what is the go with renewals and PIFR? Are they not required? If not, then that's a bit different. After a year, you effectively only have PIFR anyway, or go spend $$$ on a renewal...
I must confess to not being fully up on PIFR (never needed to be).
PLEASE NOTE!! WRT to #3 above, I can only agree with those who have spoken above, if you are proposing an IFR flight, at night or in less than VFR, and you have the SLIGHTEST DOUBT about it, go another day. Or find a friend / aeroclub with a sim and get current.
From an IFR apprentice...
CR.
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I understand that having a CIR is exactly that - the PIFR needs to be issued seperately in order to exercise its privileges.
IF you have a CIR, you can be issued with a PIFR automatically but it must be entered into your logbook. Very, very useful for maintaining currency. ILS out of date ? its OK, do one on an PVT leg and then hey presto - its 35 days for your CIR.
I used to believe that the PIFR was dangerous but I've come to the conclusion that its all a matter of curency. By itself its great and the skills you pick up getting it are invaluable but like any complex skill, you need to practice.
When you need it most (in IMC to minima) and you are not confident and current, you are at great risk of coming unstuck and hurting yourself and others.
My only advice, IMHO, is an enroute PIFR is a recipe for disaster . You need to be able to get down at the other end. The cloud will always be lower than you hoped
IF you have a CIR, you can be issued with a PIFR automatically but it must be entered into your logbook. Very, very useful for maintaining currency. ILS out of date ? its OK, do one on an PVT leg and then hey presto - its 35 days for your CIR.
I used to believe that the PIFR was dangerous but I've come to the conclusion that its all a matter of curency. By itself its great and the skills you pick up getting it are invaluable but like any complex skill, you need to practice.
When you need it most (in IMC to minima) and you are not confident and current, you are at great risk of coming unstuck and hurting yourself and others.
My only advice, IMHO, is an enroute PIFR is a recipe for disaster . You need to be able to get down at the other end. The cloud will always be lower than you hoped
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All this talk about "equivalent" ratings bothers me much. They are not; that is why the two ratings have separate CAOs. See CAO 40.2.1 and compare it with 40.2.3. They are very separate ratings, and each for a different purpose, although you may apply for a PIFR on the basis of your CIR, but its privileges do not automatically flow.
Your PIFR with "all the endorsements" - flight procedure authorisations - has one problem - its associated flight review. You can satisfy the flight review requirement either by (1) passing the CIR test; or (2) completing a flight review IAW para 8.3 of CAO 40.2.3. If you have a PIFR with ILS, VOR, NDB, DME, GPS, SIDs, STARs, Night, Holding, ... etc - then your flight review under (2) is going to take a very long time - I'd suggest a day and evening or more. And that is assuming you have retained competence in all those procedures. I only know about the CASA office at Bankstown - but they have made their views about PIFR flight reviews very clear - and they expect that 40.2.3 8.3 (b) (ii) "the relevant flight procedures" means ALL the flight procedures on your PIFR.
If your night experience was gained solely in training for your PIFR (and has not included Night VFR experience or CIR) then it is commonly held that your PIFR (with night FPA) does not entitle you to fly VFR at night. Many would consider this an advantage(!); but this also means you can't fly a few circuits or your 3 take offs and landings even just after dark on your own.
Recall from CAO 40.2.1 paras 4.1 and 4.2 that your CIR, with ILS, VOR, and NDB endorsements can be renewed by flying an ILS and NDB and that your GPS/DME Arrival endorsemement does not need renewal while you hold the CIR. Your CIR might be valid for night operations, yet you do not need to fly at night to pass a CIR renewal, although your ability to use it at night is another matter.
If you have a CIR and renew it, then you will have also satisfied the requirement for a PIFR flight review.
So - by all means study for the PIFR. It will teach you a lot and make you a better pilot and you can do it gradually and gain experience. But if you want "all the endorsements" and expect to be able to use them more than 2 years hence, then depending on your circumstances, it may be easier to obtain the CIR to begin with.
Finally, take great care if you are qualified for the PIFR enoute IFR only. It is all too easy to launch into good weather, strike some cloud enroute and find yourself needing a GPS/DME arrival or an instrument approach at the destination. You need to decide if you will have the discipline in these circumstances to divert, probably in IMC, locate somewhere with VMC above LSALT and sort out the resulting logistical issues. My observations are that many don't. We have encountered more than one such chap who's been forced to dangerously scud-run at the end of the trip as any hope of a normal visual approach passed, a control area was looming, and an instrument approach (or even radar vectors below LSALT) was not an option.
I have found it useful to hold both the CIR and PIFR. The PIFR brings flexibility for private-only ops but the CIR is the best way to hold "all the endorsements" even if all your flying is private. A number of private pilots renew their CIR at 2-year or less intervals and fly on the PIFR during the times that the CIR is not valid.
Instument flying is a very different business to most private VFR operations. I would encourage you to ask around at the airport and get reliable advice before deciding how you want to approach it.
Your PIFR with "all the endorsements" - flight procedure authorisations - has one problem - its associated flight review. You can satisfy the flight review requirement either by (1) passing the CIR test; or (2) completing a flight review IAW para 8.3 of CAO 40.2.3. If you have a PIFR with ILS, VOR, NDB, DME, GPS, SIDs, STARs, Night, Holding, ... etc - then your flight review under (2) is going to take a very long time - I'd suggest a day and evening or more. And that is assuming you have retained competence in all those procedures. I only know about the CASA office at Bankstown - but they have made their views about PIFR flight reviews very clear - and they expect that 40.2.3 8.3 (b) (ii) "the relevant flight procedures" means ALL the flight procedures on your PIFR.
If your night experience was gained solely in training for your PIFR (and has not included Night VFR experience or CIR) then it is commonly held that your PIFR (with night FPA) does not entitle you to fly VFR at night. Many would consider this an advantage(!); but this also means you can't fly a few circuits or your 3 take offs and landings even just after dark on your own.
Recall from CAO 40.2.1 paras 4.1 and 4.2 that your CIR, with ILS, VOR, and NDB endorsements can be renewed by flying an ILS and NDB and that your GPS/DME Arrival endorsemement does not need renewal while you hold the CIR. Your CIR might be valid for night operations, yet you do not need to fly at night to pass a CIR renewal, although your ability to use it at night is another matter.
If you have a CIR and renew it, then you will have also satisfied the requirement for a PIFR flight review.
So - by all means study for the PIFR. It will teach you a lot and make you a better pilot and you can do it gradually and gain experience. But if you want "all the endorsements" and expect to be able to use them more than 2 years hence, then depending on your circumstances, it may be easier to obtain the CIR to begin with.
Finally, take great care if you are qualified for the PIFR enoute IFR only. It is all too easy to launch into good weather, strike some cloud enroute and find yourself needing a GPS/DME arrival or an instrument approach at the destination. You need to decide if you will have the discipline in these circumstances to divert, probably in IMC, locate somewhere with VMC above LSALT and sort out the resulting logistical issues. My observations are that many don't. We have encountered more than one such chap who's been forced to dangerously scud-run at the end of the trip as any hope of a normal visual approach passed, a control area was looming, and an instrument approach (or even radar vectors below LSALT) was not an option.
I have found it useful to hold both the CIR and PIFR. The PIFR brings flexibility for private-only ops but the CIR is the best way to hold "all the endorsements" even if all your flying is private. A number of private pilots renew their CIR at 2-year or less intervals and fly on the PIFR during the times that the CIR is not valid.
Instument flying is a very different business to most private VFR operations. I would encourage you to ask around at the airport and get reliable advice before deciding how you want to approach it.
