Air disaster prog - Avicana 707 crash
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Air disaster prog - Avianca 707 crash
Did anyone see this on Wed (20/04). I was quite amazed at the end to see blame heaped on ATC! (by pax and pax Lawyer though) The crew who never bothered to get updated weather through the entire flight and just continued on even though there were clearly massive delays at JFK. No real Mayday declared until it was too late (Go around). I am sure Avianca must have had a fuel divert policy which was totally ignored. Language problems compounded the issue but basically to my mind the crew got themselves into a corner that they coudn't get out of. The FE must have known that they only had enough fuel for one shot at the approach (?) well beforehand. 
Last edited by slice; 21st Apr 2005 at 09:53.
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Hi slice,
Your right there. It is the flight crew's command responsibility to get the weather update to make decisions wether to divert to Boston which was their alternate if it had better weather conditions and not to eat into their reserves as well. I was watching it and I was shaking my head in disbelief.
Holding at JFK is unbelievable I have to say. That happened to me when I went there a couple of years ago for X-mas break and we were put in a holding pattern over the ocean for at least 45 minutes. I think the waypoint that Avianca used was the same one that we were in "waypoint Cameron ".
Of course the pax lawyers would blame ATC, who else would they sue. They wouldn't sue their own pilots.
I would've gone to the alternate which was Boston in their case if the weather was a bit better if my fuel was down to just enough for the trip to the alternate with reserves intact.
They must have had a fuel planning policy in the company and maybe it was ignored. By all 3 ?
Factors were aggravated because the autopilot was u/s for the 4 hour trip to JFK and therefore have impaired the captains decision making capabilities because he was tired, then his english was poor so the F/O did all the comms work ( not that anything is wrong with that ).
The only thing which I can compare to our controllers here is when I had my right seat door open mid-flight on me (due to a hinge coming off) Sydney Radar asked me "Are you declaring an emergency ?" which JFK controllers never asked with the F/O when he said we are running out of fuel. Of course the show was only re-enacting the ATC's response but it seems there was already an urgency from ATC anway. The thing is they were being vectored too far away for another shot of the ILS if the F/O said "we were running out of fuel" if they thought it was an emergency. Maybe that's their procedure I dont know.
The thing is one of the controllers which was told they are low on fuel did not pass on their situation to the next one. I think that was JFK approach.
And yes the FE knew they only had one shot at it. But the thing is by the time they got to the DA, they couldn't see the runway.
2 or 3 aircraft before them had already done a mis-approach during the night.
I would've been on the radio declaring Mayday as loud as I can.
I dont care if I would fill up a mountain of papers after that.
Everything was stacked against them that night.
D6
Your right there. It is the flight crew's command responsibility to get the weather update to make decisions wether to divert to Boston which was their alternate if it had better weather conditions and not to eat into their reserves as well. I was watching it and I was shaking my head in disbelief.
Holding at JFK is unbelievable I have to say. That happened to me when I went there a couple of years ago for X-mas break and we were put in a holding pattern over the ocean for at least 45 minutes. I think the waypoint that Avianca used was the same one that we were in "waypoint Cameron ".
Of course the pax lawyers would blame ATC, who else would they sue. They wouldn't sue their own pilots.
I would've gone to the alternate which was Boston in their case if the weather was a bit better if my fuel was down to just enough for the trip to the alternate with reserves intact.
They must have had a fuel planning policy in the company and maybe it was ignored. By all 3 ?
Factors were aggravated because the autopilot was u/s for the 4 hour trip to JFK and therefore have impaired the captains decision making capabilities because he was tired, then his english was poor so the F/O did all the comms work ( not that anything is wrong with that ).
The only thing which I can compare to our controllers here is when I had my right seat door open mid-flight on me (due to a hinge coming off) Sydney Radar asked me "Are you declaring an emergency ?" which JFK controllers never asked with the F/O when he said we are running out of fuel. Of course the show was only re-enacting the ATC's response but it seems there was already an urgency from ATC anway. The thing is they were being vectored too far away for another shot of the ILS if the F/O said "we were running out of fuel" if they thought it was an emergency. Maybe that's their procedure I dont know.
The thing is one of the controllers which was told they are low on fuel did not pass on their situation to the next one. I think that was JFK approach.
And yes the FE knew they only had one shot at it. But the thing is by the time they got to the DA, they couldn't see the runway.
2 or 3 aircraft before them had already done a mis-approach during the night.
I would've been on the radio declaring Mayday as loud as I can.
I dont care if I would fill up a mountain of papers after that.
Everything was stacked against them that night.
D6
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The impression i had from the re-enactment, was that by telling ATC on a few occasions that they were low on fuel and also asking for priority they thought they had declared the equivalent of an emergency and thought that they were getting appropriate treatment, clearly this was lost in the way it was communicated.
The Captain did tell the F/O to declare an emergency on several occasions, only the F/Os version of declaring an emergency had been to ask for priority and advise that they were low on fuel.
Whilst ATC cant be blamed for Avianca not keeping an eye on the weather, and not demanding vectors to commence an approach, they certainly should have realised that if a jet has told them on numerous occasions that they are low on fuel, and about to run out of fuel, something cleary is wrong............... instead they vectored them up the creek.
The Captain did tell the F/O to declare an emergency on several occasions, only the F/Os version of declaring an emergency had been to ask for priority and advise that they were low on fuel.
Whilst ATC cant be blamed for Avianca not keeping an eye on the weather, and not demanding vectors to commence an approach, they certainly should have realised that if a jet has told them on numerous occasions that they are low on fuel, and about to run out of fuel, something cleary is wrong............... instead they vectored them up the creek.
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The crew who never bothered to get updated weather through the entire flight
No real Mayday declared
D6
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I only watched up to the time of the crash then had to go to bed on Wednesday night. So I can`t speak intelligently on the conclusions drawn by the tv program. However when I was doing my ATPL`s a few years ago I watched another documentary on this exact incident. It focused on the ATSB investigation and more from the controllers point of view. This accident did change procedures over there.
When other contollers listened to the tape(the actual ATC radio tape) they all agreed it was apparent the aircraft was in fuel trouble. But the serverity was not highlighted. They also said had the aircraft used the word EMERGENCY,(which the crew never did) they would have handled the situation differently as it would have set off specific procedure to land the plane immediately.
I agreed with what the contollers said, from the ATC radio tape which they played on the program I saw, the pilots were not very assertive of specific enough about the dire situation they were in. And with the apparent work load the contollers were under that night, I sure that AVianca would not have beenthe only plane which was low on fuel that night. So how would they know who to prioritise
When other contollers listened to the tape(the actual ATC radio tape) they all agreed it was apparent the aircraft was in fuel trouble. But the serverity was not highlighted. They also said had the aircraft used the word EMERGENCY,(which the crew never did) they would have handled the situation differently as it would have set off specific procedure to land the plane immediately.
I agreed with what the contollers said, from the ATC radio tape which they played on the program I saw, the pilots were not very assertive of specific enough about the dire situation they were in. And with the apparent work load the contollers were under that night, I sure that AVianca would not have beenthe only plane which was low on fuel that night. So how would they know who to prioritise
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The word EMERGENCY would've made a huge difference if the crew used it.
And you're right, ATC did not know who to prioritize that night that's why the 707 fell out of the sky. Maybe a few more aircraft were reporting low on fuel that night as well. So, I guess it all comes back to their training and company procedures on deciding who to prioritise and if the word "emergency" was still necessary for them to hear or at least confirm.
In comparison, Sydney Radar did ask me if I was declaring an emergency when I requested a 180 back to BK when I told them my right door have come loose and partly open ( maybe it was part of their training to ascertain ). Maybe JFK should've tried the same thing, and include it in their training.
Onya Syd Radar
D6
And you're right, ATC did not know who to prioritize that night that's why the 707 fell out of the sky. Maybe a few more aircraft were reporting low on fuel that night as well. So, I guess it all comes back to their training and company procedures on deciding who to prioritise and if the word "emergency" was still necessary for them to hear or at least confirm.
In comparison, Sydney Radar did ask me if I was declaring an emergency when I requested a 180 back to BK when I told them my right door have come loose and partly open ( maybe it was part of their training to ascertain ). Maybe JFK should've tried the same thing, and include it in their training.
Onya Syd Radar
D6
