RAAF Pilot - Is it really better being a civvy?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: WA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Military Flying - Is it really better being a civvy?
So, if there are any ex RAAF pilots out there. Is is much better flying for the companies?
Sure in the military we have less days off per month, 25 bulls**t secondary duties, write countless reports on subordinates, move state every 2-3 yrs and get sh^t on by senior (Navigator) officers, but hey I get paid $90,000 to fly over the ocean at 100ft?
Basically I can get out very soon, and with all this talk about paying for endorsements and earning $45,000 a year, I'm not sure if it's worth it??
In or out?
Sure in the military we have less days off per month, 25 bulls**t secondary duties, write countless reports on subordinates, move state every 2-3 yrs and get sh^t on by senior (Navigator) officers, but hey I get paid $90,000 to fly over the ocean at 100ft?
Basically I can get out very soon, and with all this talk about paying for endorsements and earning $45,000 a year, I'm not sure if it's worth it??
In or out?
Last edited by Soopster; 11th Apr 2005 at 15:59.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm......
100ft over the water / Navigator as a boss / Flyies a bomber
Why would you want to leave the tranquil humm of those 4 T-56's spinning around while eating pies and drinking coffee at the same time!
Say it loud and proud..... FISH HEAD!
100ft over the water / Navigator as a boss / Flyies a bomber
Why would you want to leave the tranquil humm of those 4 T-56's spinning around while eating pies and drinking coffee at the same time!
Say it loud and proud..... FISH HEAD!
Let me see.... a pilot at 92WG who's ROSO is about up -- that should narrow it down a bit!
I think it comes down to what you want long term. Look 5 to 10 plus years ahead and see where you think you'll be in the RAAF. If you like what you see then you have a good case for staying. If, however, you are like me and all you could see are project jobs and FLTCDR duties, then you should consider leaving, assuming that you'd enjoy the flying and lifestyle of the airlines.
I miss flying at 100', Gateways out of Butterworth with the crew and asking my TACCO "have you thought about BARRA?", but when I left (only last year - so that should narrow it down for you!) I was smart enough to realise that the things that I'll miss are the things that I'll never get again anyway, in or out of the RAAF. Long term thinking is the key.
PM me if you want some more info.
ruprecht.
I think it comes down to what you want long term. Look 5 to 10 plus years ahead and see where you think you'll be in the RAAF. If you like what you see then you have a good case for staying. If, however, you are like me and all you could see are project jobs and FLTCDR duties, then you should consider leaving, assuming that you'd enjoy the flying and lifestyle of the airlines.
I miss flying at 100', Gateways out of Butterworth with the crew and asking my TACCO "have you thought about BARRA?", but when I left (only last year - so that should narrow it down for you!) I was smart enough to realise that the things that I'll miss are the things that I'll never get again anyway, in or out of the RAAF. Long term thinking is the key.
PM me if you want some more info.
ruprecht.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere around 27degrees
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or...........
You could try hiring a Ferrari for a day and driving it as hard as you dare, then PM me and I'll lend you my 20-year old car so you can drive it for a week with a glass of water on the dashboard that you aren't allowed to spill!!!
That might cast a slightly different light on the issue.
That might cast a slightly different light on the issue.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: WA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ruprecht, I PM'd you, but I can't guess who you are.
Oh and reversefloweryaddayadda, I'm lost??????? But I don't think a P-3 is any sort of ferrari
Oh and reversefloweryaddayadda, I'm lost??????? But I don't think a P-3 is any sort of ferrari
Last edited by Soopster; 11th Apr 2005 at 15:54.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G'day soopster
When you really start thinking about leaving you have actually made up your mind but not admitted it because it is such a big change. I was/am lucky. Firstly I have my wife (and kids) and though my life was changing she was the one constant before and after. Kids are just mindblowingly great and we have loads. Heaps of cats and a dog with no brain. Straight up, no brain at all. All of them, they all keep yuh focussed, you love them and they love you straight back.
You have RAAF flashbacks for a while but one lovely day doubts and worries vanish forever and they stop.
Keep family and work as far apart as is possible is my advice. Your family want you and not the job. Fly planes or sell Hill's Hoists but home is where you make others happy and really your wife and kids don't care where you work so why should you.
The other lucky thing for me was that it was much easier then to get a job. Now 4-engine turboprops. So flying? The job as it is, is pretty dreadful and as Douglas Adams might nearly have said "anyone who wants to be an airline pilot should immediately be disqualified on the grounds of unsuitability!" There are some deeply troubled whingeing basket cases in this industry and collectively we are the architects of much of our own misfortune not helped by oversupply and the understandable willingness of some who will do for$5 what should be done for $10.
If I were leaving now I'd be inclined to make a pitch for Airbus in Oz as a techie or marketing, they can only expand. If that's a no then make a clean break. High quality low volume tourist/leisure activities would suit me because those are the holidays I enjoy... sailing, climbing, Larapinta trail. Done the Chilkoot? Try it. You might like to pursue a career on those lines.
Mrs E has always said to me "Never go back" and "A book has more than one chapter". The RAAF will always be a chapter but never the whole book. Better that a future colleague look at you in surprise to say "I never knew you were in the RAAF" than groan when for the umpteenth time he hears "When I was in the RAAF...."
Been there. It hurts. Not for long.
Best rgds
enicalyth
When you really start thinking about leaving you have actually made up your mind but not admitted it because it is such a big change. I was/am lucky. Firstly I have my wife (and kids) and though my life was changing she was the one constant before and after. Kids are just mindblowingly great and we have loads. Heaps of cats and a dog with no brain. Straight up, no brain at all. All of them, they all keep yuh focussed, you love them and they love you straight back.
You have RAAF flashbacks for a while but one lovely day doubts and worries vanish forever and they stop.
Keep family and work as far apart as is possible is my advice. Your family want you and not the job. Fly planes or sell Hill's Hoists but home is where you make others happy and really your wife and kids don't care where you work so why should you.
The other lucky thing for me was that it was much easier then to get a job. Now 4-engine turboprops. So flying? The job as it is, is pretty dreadful and as Douglas Adams might nearly have said "anyone who wants to be an airline pilot should immediately be disqualified on the grounds of unsuitability!" There are some deeply troubled whingeing basket cases in this industry and collectively we are the architects of much of our own misfortune not helped by oversupply and the understandable willingness of some who will do for$5 what should be done for $10.
If I were leaving now I'd be inclined to make a pitch for Airbus in Oz as a techie or marketing, they can only expand. If that's a no then make a clean break. High quality low volume tourist/leisure activities would suit me because those are the holidays I enjoy... sailing, climbing, Larapinta trail. Done the Chilkoot? Try it. You might like to pursue a career on those lines.
Mrs E has always said to me "Never go back" and "A book has more than one chapter". The RAAF will always be a chapter but never the whole book. Better that a future colleague look at you in surprise to say "I never knew you were in the RAAF" than groan when for the umpteenth time he hears "When I was in the RAAF...."
Been there. It hurts. Not for long.
Best rgds
enicalyth
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soopster, I think you've answered your own question :
"sitting in the right seat for the next 10yrs transiting from Syd to LAX to Heathrow and back. Is that really flying......"
What of the 10 years after that..............?
sitting in the LEFT seat for the next 10yrs transiting from Syd to LAX to Heathrow and back. Is that really flying.......
Is there a significant lifestyle difference sitting a metre to the left? It's the same kind of flying which apparently doesn't appeal to you.
"sitting in the right seat for the next 10yrs transiting from Syd to LAX to Heathrow and back. Is that really flying......"
What of the 10 years after that..............?
sitting in the LEFT seat for the next 10yrs transiting from Syd to LAX to Heathrow and back. Is that really flying.......
Is there a significant lifestyle difference sitting a metre to the left? It's the same kind of flying which apparently doesn't appeal to you.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: WA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Hobo, that's kind of the gist of this whole thread. Does sitting in either seat really appeal to to anyone as "flying"?
I hear you enicalyth (interesting name), I also try to keep family separate to work, and that does sound easier to do when your in the airlines.
So thanks all for your inputs, you all sound happy with the change! (except for Reverseflowkeroburna)
I hear you enicalyth (interesting name), I also try to keep family separate to work, and that does sound easier to do when your in the airlines.
So thanks all for your inputs, you all sound happy with the change! (except for Reverseflowkeroburna)
Last edited by Soopster; 11th Apr 2005 at 15:44.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OZ
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soopster - Do they still have "Spec Aircrew"? Why don't you apply for that.
If not. You are in the situation many before have faced - coming to turns with the fact your Military flying career is over! And they wonder why folks are leaving in their droves. Wake up Canberra!
It is a decision only you can make I am afraid.
Option 1:Stay in the RAAF and look forward to Staff College maybe Command of a Squadron, and then lots of desk duties.
Option 2: Apply to the Airlines. An easy decision for me. No it is not the most exciting flying cf. what you have done in the military, but a desk without a view it is not. There are still challenges with the job, and beers to be drunk overseas. Also plenty of options and choices in the long term eg. Long Haul/Short Haul.
Option 3; Career change.
BTW some friendly advice, you would not feel too welcome in an airline rocking up with an attitude of "is this just sitting here stuff really flying," in fact you probably wouldn't get past the interview stage. The Airlines do in fact want motivated individuals who want to be there.
Good Luck with your decisions.
If not. You are in the situation many before have faced - coming to turns with the fact your Military flying career is over! And they wonder why folks are leaving in their droves. Wake up Canberra!
It is a decision only you can make I am afraid.
Option 1:Stay in the RAAF and look forward to Staff College maybe Command of a Squadron, and then lots of desk duties.
Option 2: Apply to the Airlines. An easy decision for me. No it is not the most exciting flying cf. what you have done in the military, but a desk without a view it is not. There are still challenges with the job, and beers to be drunk overseas. Also plenty of options and choices in the long term eg. Long Haul/Short Haul.
Option 3; Career change.
BTW some friendly advice, you would not feel too welcome in an airline rocking up with an attitude of "is this just sitting here stuff really flying," in fact you probably wouldn't get past the interview stage. The Airlines do in fact want motivated individuals who want to be there.
Good Luck with your decisions.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The outflow of pilots is not about to get better either
I know only a couple of pilots in my squadron that arent counting down the months to the end of their ROSO.
Flying over the ocean at 100' is pretty cool........i guess, for a while, but how many F/A-18 pilots do you see hanging around in the RAAF. The answer is not many and let me tell you, 100ft at 600kts is VERY cool.
I dont really think its the pay, because most guys crack 6 figures by the end of their ROSO which is nothing to turn your nose up at. Its just the mountains of bull****e that will turn me away.
At the end of the day, theres no point in wingeing or being bitter about it. Its all way above my pay scale. So I for one will be making sure I am all ATPLed up for when my ROSO is out in 18 months time.
I know only a couple of pilots in my squadron that arent counting down the months to the end of their ROSO.
Flying over the ocean at 100' is pretty cool........i guess, for a while, but how many F/A-18 pilots do you see hanging around in the RAAF. The answer is not many and let me tell you, 100ft at 600kts is VERY cool.
I dont really think its the pay, because most guys crack 6 figures by the end of their ROSO which is nothing to turn your nose up at. Its just the mountains of bull****e that will turn me away.
At the end of the day, theres no point in wingeing or being bitter about it. Its all way above my pay scale. So I for one will be making sure I am all ATPLed up for when my ROSO is out in 18 months time.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SE Aus
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soopster -
Hope those navigators don't keep too keen an eye on pprune...
I'm with Hobo - sounds to me like you'd best avoid the airlines and give the motivated amongst us a better crack at it.
VI
Hope those navigators don't keep too keen an eye on pprune...
I'm with Hobo - sounds to me like you'd best avoid the airlines and give the motivated amongst us a better crack at it.
VI
Last edited by Victor India; 11th Apr 2005 at 21:56.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: WA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VI,
No idea what you talking about! Certain in my time my whole c.o.c was navs, most good, some not. Just a general dig at navs really.
I am motivated to move on, I was just being pessimistic ("is that really flying") to see what the response would be. Obviously you all seem pretty keen to leave, or have left.
No idea what you talking about! Certain in my time my whole c.o.c was navs, most good, some not. Just a general dig at navs really.
I am motivated to move on, I was just being pessimistic ("is that really flying") to see what the response would be. Obviously you all seem pretty keen to leave, or have left.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: In the pollution
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I left 9 years ago.
I don't look back too often and "pine for the fjords".
I enjoy the mateship of RPT ops but the flying isn't the same.
Having said that, I have experienced VERY challenging days but they are not as frequent as the RAAF.
I knew that would be the case back then so it isn't a drama.
I get paid better than the RAAF.
I am in my second airline!
Gliderboy
I don't look back too often and "pine for the fjords".
I enjoy the mateship of RPT ops but the flying isn't the same.
Having said that, I have experienced VERY challenging days but they are not as frequent as the RAAF.
I knew that would be the case back then so it isn't a drama.
I get paid better than the RAAF.
I am in my second airline!
Gliderboy
Join Date: May 2002
Location: the fatigue curve
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If your thinking of a career change have a good look at the financial package on offer before you set your heart on it. Whilst an airline may not be the most exciting (nor is the military - I would say) at times. You might find depending on your qualifications that you can't get a salary package anywhere close to that of the airline or RAAF (unless your prepared to really start working ***** hard with lots of night shift, night shift in the airline still pays more), I wouldn't get out for a 45,000 salary but I'd suggest your not looking far enough afield. If you think the RAAF are going to leave you flying for the rest of your career until retirement - your dreaming. And that leads to the final point you need to think about the next 30? years not just the next 10. If you are going to go to an airline do it early not late or you won't have a chance
Think outside the square a bit too, as the saying goes.
You want good pay and fulfilling work; depending what you end up doing, maybe you can't have both from the one job, but depending how you organise your life, you might branch out into something different as a sideline to your airline work (or whatever's paying the bills at that stage) that keeps you happy.
Teach aeros in a Pitts or something, or do something completely different.
The eternal decision seems to be to stay in and enjoy the flying while you can, or get out to the airlines, but there are other alternatives once you figure out what's important to you.
You want good pay and fulfilling work; depending what you end up doing, maybe you can't have both from the one job, but depending how you organise your life, you might branch out into something different as a sideline to your airline work (or whatever's paying the bills at that stage) that keeps you happy.
Teach aeros in a Pitts or something, or do something completely different.
The eternal decision seems to be to stay in and enjoy the flying while you can, or get out to the airlines, but there are other alternatives once you figure out what's important to you.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Know the feeling of indecision even 36 years after I left the RAAF where I was fortunate enough to have got 18 years of continuous flying posts from Mustangs and Lincolns to Convairs and Viscounts. The inevitable desk job loomed and regretfully it was time to leave before I joined the tea lady for biscuits and tea at Dept of Air.
As Enicalyth or someone said, if you really love flying then opt for an airline - preferably Dragonair or Cathay where the destinations are interesting and the money is good. Money means long term security in the end.
Avoid like a plague being forced into the GA side of flying in Australia unless you have no other choice. To survive in GA means dropping your RAAF standards of integrity to the level of the mob. Not all GA is crooked of course, but you have to close your eyes and pretend not to notice the cutting of corners and the cowboys who are the owners and operators. It's a shoe string industry and you are far better off behind a desk in Defence than flogging a dodgy Chieftain over mountains.
The RAAF for me is one long happy memory of flying lots of well maintained aeroplanes and having so many good mates. I was never happier - but in the end my decision was the right one and I still fly. Pity I didn't stay long enough to pick up a Service pension, though.
As Enicalyth or someone said, if you really love flying then opt for an airline - preferably Dragonair or Cathay where the destinations are interesting and the money is good. Money means long term security in the end.
Avoid like a plague being forced into the GA side of flying in Australia unless you have no other choice. To survive in GA means dropping your RAAF standards of integrity to the level of the mob. Not all GA is crooked of course, but you have to close your eyes and pretend not to notice the cutting of corners and the cowboys who are the owners and operators. It's a shoe string industry and you are far better off behind a desk in Defence than flogging a dodgy Chieftain over mountains.
The RAAF for me is one long happy memory of flying lots of well maintained aeroplanes and having so many good mates. I was never happier - but in the end my decision was the right one and I still fly. Pity I didn't stay long enough to pick up a Service pension, though.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: to the left and down
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soop,
from a non-CPL background (though ex-RNZAF as of '94, so I fully understand 'extra duties' $h!te. . ) I could offer a point or two purely on the "personal contentment" quotient.
Heard this not that long ago, germaine to my present sitrep and gave me pause to consider my motivations:
If you're unhappy in your job then your career won't be good.
If you apply yourself to your job, work not hard but smart, and work to improve both yourself and the working environment, then the career takes care of itself.
Ingenuous? Possibly. Wherever we are, professionally, the salient point is to like what you're doing. Otherwise get out. Obviously you're halfway to some decision.
To succeed in anything requires 5 simple things:
The 'vehicle' or 'business', i.e. what gives you enough pay.
Skills, which you obviously have.
Knowledge.
Like-minded group who want the same and into which you can tap for support.
Courage to act. The pain's not in the new career path, it's in the decision.
My penn'rth. FWIW.
from a non-CPL background (though ex-RNZAF as of '94, so I fully understand 'extra duties' $h!te. . ) I could offer a point or two purely on the "personal contentment" quotient.
Heard this not that long ago, germaine to my present sitrep and gave me pause to consider my motivations:
If you're unhappy in your job then your career won't be good.
If you apply yourself to your job, work not hard but smart, and work to improve both yourself and the working environment, then the career takes care of itself.
Ingenuous? Possibly. Wherever we are, professionally, the salient point is to like what you're doing. Otherwise get out. Obviously you're halfway to some decision.
To succeed in anything requires 5 simple things:
The 'vehicle' or 'business', i.e. what gives you enough pay.
Skills, which you obviously have.
Knowledge.
Like-minded group who want the same and into which you can tap for support.
Courage to act. The pain's not in the new career path, it's in the decision.
My penn'rth. FWIW.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Townsville Australia
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My view? It's not worth much, but...
Soopster,
I'm an Army Chinook pilot who got sick and tired of being put in command/staff positions ("you're too valuable to keep flying. We need you to do this and let the other guys get experience") I got sick of being shat on when the reality was I was a specialist pilot; supposed to be employed only in that role; would never make Major unless I changed career paths; and always ended up doing OPSO/XO roles at the cost of flying hours.
So, when I was the CO's (OC in RAAFspeak) staff officer, I had enough and put in my transfer to the reserves. Now, as an ARES Captain, I am working at all the SLJs and still not doing much flying. But I am also a professional artist and HUET instructor and freelance pilot (blah, blah, blah) so I'm not too pissed off. I can sleep in if I want or put on the green bunny suit and go into work for some extra cash to meet the mortgage payments.
My advice? (Actually it's Dennis Lillee's advice) As soon as you come to work and wish you were somewhere else... then it's time for a change.
But I DO miss the good times of military flying... but now I have the time to do the other things I always wanted.
If you get out, things won't be better or worse... just different, and as interesting as YOU make it.
Good Luck!
I'm an Army Chinook pilot who got sick and tired of being put in command/staff positions ("you're too valuable to keep flying. We need you to do this and let the other guys get experience") I got sick of being shat on when the reality was I was a specialist pilot; supposed to be employed only in that role; would never make Major unless I changed career paths; and always ended up doing OPSO/XO roles at the cost of flying hours.
So, when I was the CO's (OC in RAAFspeak) staff officer, I had enough and put in my transfer to the reserves. Now, as an ARES Captain, I am working at all the SLJs and still not doing much flying. But I am also a professional artist and HUET instructor and freelance pilot (blah, blah, blah) so I'm not too pissed off. I can sleep in if I want or put on the green bunny suit and go into work for some extra cash to meet the mortgage payments.
My advice? (Actually it's Dennis Lillee's advice) As soon as you come to work and wish you were somewhere else... then it's time for a change.
But I DO miss the good times of military flying... but now I have the time to do the other things I always wanted.
If you get out, things won't be better or worse... just different, and as interesting as YOU make it.
Good Luck!