Death of US girl by AVGAS near Alice?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: S/E Australia
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Death of US girl by AVGAS near Alice?
Anybody know the details of what happened to that girl from the U.S. who died from the Avgas spill/splash??? whichever it was - near Alice Springs on that property?
Stormy
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia, and I love it!!
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this what you are referring to?
ABC
Questions over Cynthia Ching's death
Friday, 1 April 2005
Presenter: Barry Nicholls
The tragic death of a Canadian tourist, at Kings Creek station 300 kilometres west of Alice Springs in April last year has left many people asking questions about her death.
29-year-old Cynthia Ching died 6 weeks after being badly burned in an accident where she was set alight after avgas fuel, which was being used as a lantern by the local helicopter pilots, was inadvertently thrown in her direction.
Although the incident took place almost a year ago ABC Lateline journalist, Norman Hermont, first unearthed the story on Tuesday March 29.
Barry Nicholls spoke to Craig Paterson Cynthia Ching's father's lawyer and asked him what he'd been told about the police investigation into Cynthia Ching's death.
"I've been told virtually nothing.
"It would be easier for me to explain what I have not been told, I've been told that they've done an investigation," says Paterson.
However, Paterson is critical of the information he is getting about the investigation into Cynthia Ching's death.
"They don't say how thorough it was, they don't say how many people were involved in the investigation, they don't say how many people were talked to, they don't say how many statements were taken under oath- or in writing. They don't say whether they took photographs or whether they seized physical evidence- the police claim...that's their normal procedure," says Paterson.
Almost a year after Cynthia's death, her family want to know why the severely burned Ms Ching, who was suffering third degree burns to 50 percent of her body, wasn't taken directly to the Royal Adelaide Hospital rather than the Alice Springs hospital.
"Why (wasn't) Ms Ching taken immediately to the Royal Adelaide Hospital burns' unit?...the young woman was obviously burned to most of her body...any casual observer without medical training would know, suffering those injuries should go immediately to a burn unit," says Paterson.
Not only does Mr Paterson question the delay of transporting Ms Ching to appropriate medical care, but also questions why the helicopter pilots were even using the aviation fuel as a illuminating device at night.
"How long had that been going on? why had it been going on?" says Paterson.
Craig Paterson is also concerned that they Northern Territory police weren't informed about the incident until Ms Ching died.
"Why weren't they told the night that it happened by the station owner? and why weren't they told by the Royal Flying Doctor Service that it happened that night why didn't a nurse or a doctor phone the police? why didn't the Alice Springs Hospital phone the police?"
But the question most people are left wondering is, why are we hearing about this almost a year since her death?
Friday, 1 April 2005
Presenter: Barry Nicholls
The tragic death of a Canadian tourist, at Kings Creek station 300 kilometres west of Alice Springs in April last year has left many people asking questions about her death.
29-year-old Cynthia Ching died 6 weeks after being badly burned in an accident where she was set alight after avgas fuel, which was being used as a lantern by the local helicopter pilots, was inadvertently thrown in her direction.
Although the incident took place almost a year ago ABC Lateline journalist, Norman Hermont, first unearthed the story on Tuesday March 29.
Barry Nicholls spoke to Craig Paterson Cynthia Ching's father's lawyer and asked him what he'd been told about the police investigation into Cynthia Ching's death.
"I've been told virtually nothing.
"It would be easier for me to explain what I have not been told, I've been told that they've done an investigation," says Paterson.
However, Paterson is critical of the information he is getting about the investigation into Cynthia Ching's death.
"They don't say how thorough it was, they don't say how many people were involved in the investigation, they don't say how many people were talked to, they don't say how many statements were taken under oath- or in writing. They don't say whether they took photographs or whether they seized physical evidence- the police claim...that's their normal procedure," says Paterson.
Almost a year after Cynthia's death, her family want to know why the severely burned Ms Ching, who was suffering third degree burns to 50 percent of her body, wasn't taken directly to the Royal Adelaide Hospital rather than the Alice Springs hospital.
"Why (wasn't) Ms Ching taken immediately to the Royal Adelaide Hospital burns' unit?...the young woman was obviously burned to most of her body...any casual observer without medical training would know, suffering those injuries should go immediately to a burn unit," says Paterson.
Not only does Mr Paterson question the delay of transporting Ms Ching to appropriate medical care, but also questions why the helicopter pilots were even using the aviation fuel as a illuminating device at night.
"How long had that been going on? why had it been going on?" says Paterson.
Craig Paterson is also concerned that they Northern Territory police weren't informed about the incident until Ms Ching died.
"Why weren't they told the night that it happened by the station owner? and why weren't they told by the Royal Flying Doctor Service that it happened that night why didn't a nurse or a doctor phone the police? why didn't the Alice Springs Hospital phone the police?"
But the question most people are left wondering is, why are we hearing about this almost a year since her death?
Join Date: Jan 1998
Location: somewhere in the nth of Oz, where it isn't really cold
Posts: 884
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before this thread degenerates completely :
quite simply, in urban areas if an 'incident' like this occurs, NTPol (Darwin) are advised by virtue of the communications system in place, ie if ambo's are required immediately, the police communications system is alerted by the ambo communications system. There is a switching system within the equipment that automatically alerts police firies and ambo's IF they are all required. In Alice, Katherine and other areas, the systems in place are not quite as sophisticated.
Seeing as how this was in a remote area, no such connectivity exists between the two systems. Given that it was seemingly an accident and not a deliberate action, police would not have any need/reason to make any enquiries/conduct an investigation at that time.
Police are advised by the hospital of deaths (of a suspicious nature) when unexpected or unexplained, AND when something requires a coronial investigation, but again as it was apparently an accident, they would have not been told.
these questions are answered by the explanation above.
It is indeed a very sad situation, but remember, half the story is just that, and you can NOT make decisions on half a story.
also concerned that the Northern Territory police weren't informed about the incident until Ms Ching died.
Seeing as how this was in a remote area, no such connectivity exists between the two systems. Given that it was seemingly an accident and not a deliberate action, police would not have any need/reason to make any enquiries/conduct an investigation at that time.
Police are advised by the hospital of deaths (of a suspicious nature) when unexpected or unexplained, AND when something requires a coronial investigation, but again as it was apparently an accident, they would have not been told.
Why weren't they told the night that it happened by the station owner? and why weren't they told by the Royal Flying Doctor Service that it happened that night why didn't a nurse or a doctor phone the police? why didn't the Alice Springs Hospital phone the police
It is indeed a very sad situation, but remember, half the story is just that, and you can NOT make decisions on half a story.
Last edited by The Voice; 10th Apr 2005 at 23:30.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: WX at our destination is 32 deg with some bkn cld, but we'll try to have them fixed before we arrive
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread is becoming hardly aviation related. However, Media Watch last Monday had a piece on it. The transcript can be found here
I appreciate the need for those at the Station to not "make admissions" but to say Mr Ching and his lawyer were treated in a disgustingly abhorrent manner by those on behalf of the Station is an understatement.
I appreciate the need for those at the Station to not "make admissions" but to say Mr Ching and his lawyer were treated in a disgustingly abhorrent manner by those on behalf of the Station is an understatement.
Before those of you who feel you have to make comments regarding what you think you've seen or heard in relation to this case, spare a thought for those who live so far away from medical help. It is quite different to the city, even with the RFDS etc.
You cannot sit there and say that she should have been moved straight to Adelaide, when her condition was such that she needed to get to a hospital NOW, not in three hours.
It is easy to be an armchair expert after the fact but face it, none of you were there, and believe me the father in this scenario isn't as blameless and such a nice guy as he is making out to be.
Despite being invited to, he categorically would not come onto the station without his team of lawyers and TV newscrew along. That disagreement has been going on since she died. Then they head onto the property and ambush the owner. You tell me? I know that the father wants answers, but to make it a condition of speaking to him that he be able to bring the press and lawyers first up?
Phoning the police as soon as it happened is about as helpful for saving the girls life as blowing up a blue balloon.
Many backpackers do not give any form of next of kin advice, and the girls sister followed the burnt sister from the station that night, not leaving a next of kin info.
I certainly wasn't there, but do know a few of those concerned as I used to live and work on the ajoining station to the south.
OpsN
You cannot sit there and say that she should have been moved straight to Adelaide, when her condition was such that she needed to get to a hospital NOW, not in three hours.
It is easy to be an armchair expert after the fact but face it, none of you were there, and believe me the father in this scenario isn't as blameless and such a nice guy as he is making out to be.
but to say Mr Ching and his lawyer were treated in a disgustingly abhorrent manner by those on behalf of the Station is an understatement.
Phoning the police as soon as it happened is about as helpful for saving the girls life as blowing up a blue balloon.
Many backpackers do not give any form of next of kin advice, and the girls sister followed the burnt sister from the station that night, not leaving a next of kin info.
I certainly wasn't there, but do know a few of those concerned as I used to live and work on the ajoining station to the south.
OpsN
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: WX at our destination is 32 deg with some bkn cld, but we'll try to have them fixed before we arrive
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without pre-empting the findings of any investigation - if there will be one - it certainly appears very little anything could have been done to save her life in the circumstances (those circumstances identified by The Voice and OpsNormal).
What I do have a problem with is how the matter is being handled now (not necessarily aiming this one solely at the Station owners - look at the government response, or lack thereof).
If one of my kids got killed in the same circumstances I would want some answers. It appears to me that Mr Ching has been forced to take the action he has undertaken for the purposes of getting the answers he is entitled to. By using the media, he is bringing the matter to our (the public's) attention and, effectively, seeking to bring to account the NT government's actions in the matter.
What I do have a problem with is how the matter is being handled now (not necessarily aiming this one solely at the Station owners - look at the government response, or lack thereof).
If one of my kids got killed in the same circumstances I would want some answers. It appears to me that Mr Ching has been forced to take the action he has undertaken for the purposes of getting the answers he is entitled to. By using the media, he is bringing the matter to our (the public's) attention and, effectively, seeking to bring to account the NT government's actions in the matter.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: WX at our destination is 32 deg with some bkn cld, but we'll try to have them fixed before we arrive
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A fair question Cooda.
When I say "the government" I'm referring to the Coroner's Office and the police within the Department of Justice and the conduct of an inquest - although having read the most recent articles I understand that Ms Ching died in Adelaide, which gives the SA Coroner jurisdiction, any delay would appear to be attributable to that.
I understand that the NT police did not commence investigations until 6 weeks after the incident (when she died) - quite unusual given the severity of her injuries, regardless of whether she lived or not.
When I say "the government" I'm referring to the Coroner's Office and the police within the Department of Justice and the conduct of an inquest - although having read the most recent articles I understand that Ms Ching died in Adelaide, which gives the SA Coroner jurisdiction, any delay would appear to be attributable to that.
I understand that the NT police did not commence investigations until 6 weeks after the incident (when she died) - quite unusual given the severity of her injuries, regardless of whether she lived or not.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am very saddened to hear that this occurred to a young lady, as I would be saddened to hear that it happened to anyone,but please consider the following.
If the Canadian tourist, Ms Ching, had a comprehensive travel insurance policy it would have included an emergency reverse charge phone number or an in-country 1800 number that could be contacted 24 hours a day to medivac to a hospital with suitable facilities for the degree of injury, even if that required the charter of a Lear or similar.
What I am thinking is maybe no insurance was held, and no guarantee was obtainable that the bills would be paid.
If that is the case, short of the immediate evac to ASP, it was a case of what happens all the time in the US with people expiring in ambulances while their crews desperately try to find one to take them in at all as they are uninsured.
This of course does not in any way mitigate any mistreatment that may have occurred, but it would be scary to think that we might be moving in that direction.
I generally tell my pasengers that if they can't afford the insurance, which is not that much in the overall scheme of things, they can't afford the trip.
If Ms Ching was insured,the insurance company should be actionable as they did not assess the capability of the hospital she was in and/or the actual degree of injury.
I tend to think the non-insured model more likely, as worldwide operations like Omega and Mondial, like their clients, live and die on reputation and performance.
Best all
EWL
If the Canadian tourist, Ms Ching, had a comprehensive travel insurance policy it would have included an emergency reverse charge phone number or an in-country 1800 number that could be contacted 24 hours a day to medivac to a hospital with suitable facilities for the degree of injury, even if that required the charter of a Lear or similar.
What I am thinking is maybe no insurance was held, and no guarantee was obtainable that the bills would be paid.
If that is the case, short of the immediate evac to ASP, it was a case of what happens all the time in the US with people expiring in ambulances while their crews desperately try to find one to take them in at all as they are uninsured.
This of course does not in any way mitigate any mistreatment that may have occurred, but it would be scary to think that we might be moving in that direction.
I generally tell my pasengers that if they can't afford the insurance, which is not that much in the overall scheme of things, they can't afford the trip.
If Ms Ching was insured,the insurance company should be actionable as they did not assess the capability of the hospital she was in and/or the actual degree of injury.
I tend to think the non-insured model more likely, as worldwide operations like Omega and Mondial, like their clients, live and die on reputation and performance.
Best all
EWL
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: S37.54 E145.11
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What the?
Am I missing something here?
What is CASA doing about this incident? Even though the guy in question was not actually flying a helicopter at the time, he is a licensed pilot and should be aware of the volatility of avgas. As a licensed pilot, he is also required by the regulations to practice safe fuel management. Assuming the alleged incident occurred as reported in Lateline, if I was CASA, I would be having a serious look at this guy's (and his mates) continued suitability to hold a pilot licence full stop!!
"They used cut-out beer cans with aviation gas as candles. Pilot refilled a can, tipped it over - exploded. The fuel ignited the pilot's arm and he panicked and threw the fuel towards where the others were sitting and the ignited fuel landed on Cynthia."
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we can all see this is getting a bit emotional and as a consequence, irrational.
QSK, what on earth has this got to do with CASA? They regulate aviation not fireside goings on in the middle of the donga. There can be no line drawn in any of this to a regulatory or otherwise function. Not even the OLC is that clever or perverted.
tipsy
QSK, what on earth has this got to do with CASA? They regulate aviation not fireside goings on in the middle of the donga. There can be no line drawn in any of this to a regulatory or otherwise function. Not even the OLC is that clever or perverted.
tipsy
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: S37.54 E145.11
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're Right!
Yeah tipsy, you're absolutely correct but, for the life of me I still can't understand how the hell any pilot would be stupid enough to be using avgas in this manner. Surely, this alleged act of sheer irresponsibility must call into question the person's suitability to hold a CPL (H) licence in the first place, or to continue to hold a CPL licence?
Fellas, I think you are over the top just like CASA over regulate.
Q. What does this have to do with CASA
A. Nil
The pilot was using the AVGAS in his own time to provide lighting around his hut as the station owner refused to install lights.
Just because AVGAS was used does not mean that CASA has to storm is.
The lantern had been burning for at least an hour and flamed out. The individual went to top it up, when it ignited and as a split second reaction to the flash of fire he through the container away from himself, unfortunately in the path of the tourist.
The more important question the should be raised is a to the overall management of the situation at the property. Sources suggest family members who are also management at the property were in attendance prior to the incident. Why did the not stop this earlier ?
They really have a duty of care to their employees/contractors to provide a safe working environment.
Nev
BTW: a thread is running on Rotorheads
Rotorheads
Q. What does this have to do with CASA
A. Nil
The pilot was using the AVGAS in his own time to provide lighting around his hut as the station owner refused to install lights.
Just because AVGAS was used does not mean that CASA has to storm is.
The lantern had been burning for at least an hour and flamed out. The individual went to top it up, when it ignited and as a split second reaction to the flash of fire he through the container away from himself, unfortunately in the path of the tourist.
The more important question the should be raised is a to the overall management of the situation at the property. Sources suggest family members who are also management at the property were in attendance prior to the incident. Why did the not stop this earlier ?
They really have a duty of care to their employees/contractors to provide a safe working environment.
Nev
BTW: a thread is running on Rotorheads
Rotorheads
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot won't return over tourist's death
Just reported on the ABC website:
Come back and face up to your actions like a man!
A New Zealand helicopter pilot says he does not intend to return to Australia to face criminal charges related to the death of a Canadian tourist in central Australia two years ago.
Cynthia Ching, 29, died after she was splashed with ignited aviation fuel at a party at Kings Creek Station south-west of Alice Springs in April 2004.
Edward Lee was facing a criminal charge in relation to the incident but the Northern Territory Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has dropped the charge because he cannot be extradited to Australia.
The DPP says it will reinstate the charge if Mr Lee comes to Australia but the pilot says he has no plans to return.
"The charges have been dropped, so at the moment the question's sort of irrelevant," he said.
"You've got to cross each bridge as you come to it and the charges have been dropped, so from my point of view there's no need to."
Ms Ching's father, Ralph, had said Mr Lee should act responsibly and come to Australia to face criminal proceedings.
"I think Ned Lee should actually face up to the music," Mr Ching said.
"I think he's a young man and he's going to give up a lot of freedom by not showing up. He's going to be a wanted man in Australia. He can't travel.
"It's not worth it. It happened but you've just got to face the music."
The Ching family's lawyer, Craig Paterson, says he does not understand why Northern Territory authorities have dropped the charges.
"There might be some peculiarity of the Australian legal system or the Northern Territory legal system that explains it but the other thing is that no written explanation has been given or no explanation of any kind to the Ching family," he said.
"We all heard it over here through the media."
Mr Lee says he first learnt about the charge through the media and says he was never asked to come to Australia to face court by Northern Territory police.
"Australian police had my home phone number and then I read in an article that they couldn't extradite me and they couldn't get hold of me, and as I say I found that out in a New Zealand newspaper," he said.
Northern Territory officials say Mr Lee cannot be summoned over the dangerous act causing death charge because New Zealand does not have an equivalent charge. Without the summons, extradition cannot go ahead.
The Northern Territory Government has since changed the law, replacing doing a dangerous act causing death with manslaughter.
Cynthia Ching, 29, died after she was splashed with ignited aviation fuel at a party at Kings Creek Station south-west of Alice Springs in April 2004.
Edward Lee was facing a criminal charge in relation to the incident but the Northern Territory Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has dropped the charge because he cannot be extradited to Australia.
The DPP says it will reinstate the charge if Mr Lee comes to Australia but the pilot says he has no plans to return.
"The charges have been dropped, so at the moment the question's sort of irrelevant," he said.
"You've got to cross each bridge as you come to it and the charges have been dropped, so from my point of view there's no need to."
Ms Ching's father, Ralph, had said Mr Lee should act responsibly and come to Australia to face criminal proceedings.
"I think Ned Lee should actually face up to the music," Mr Ching said.
"I think he's a young man and he's going to give up a lot of freedom by not showing up. He's going to be a wanted man in Australia. He can't travel.
"It's not worth it. It happened but you've just got to face the music."
The Ching family's lawyer, Craig Paterson, says he does not understand why Northern Territory authorities have dropped the charges.
"There might be some peculiarity of the Australian legal system or the Northern Territory legal system that explains it but the other thing is that no written explanation has been given or no explanation of any kind to the Ching family," he said.
"We all heard it over here through the media."
Mr Lee says he first learnt about the charge through the media and says he was never asked to come to Australia to face court by Northern Territory police.
"Australian police had my home phone number and then I read in an article that they couldn't extradite me and they couldn't get hold of me, and as I say I found that out in a New Zealand newspaper," he said.
Northern Territory officials say Mr Lee cannot be summoned over the dangerous act causing death charge because New Zealand does not have an equivalent charge. Without the summons, extradition cannot go ahead.
The Northern Territory Government has since changed the law, replacing doing a dangerous act causing death with manslaughter.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Are they saying we don't have an extradition treaty with New Zealand?
If true, that's ludicrous and the TTMA should be revoked immediately.
If true, that's ludicrous and the TTMA should be revoked immediately.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HH
There has to be an equivalent charge in NZ for him to be arrested.
Not enough that the charge exists in Oz otherwise the time in custody in NZ prior to the hearing and granting of any extradition order would be false imprisonment.
Clear as mud ain't it.
There has to be an equivalent charge in NZ for him to be arrested.
Not enough that the charge exists in Oz otherwise the time in custody in NZ prior to the hearing and granting of any extradition order would be false imprisonment.
Clear as mud ain't it.
So he could come over here and possibly face Manslaughter Charges. Which if he is found guilty would probably negate his CPL (H). Which would mean not only would he spend X years in Prison, but when he got out wouldn't have a job to go to. Thus him wasting $60k or so on his lic.
Im sure he feels bad about what happend, but returning to Aus wouldn't look to appealing.
But thats the way things go.
Im sure he feels bad about what happend, but returning to Aus wouldn't look to appealing.
But thats the way things go.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But his actions directly resulted in the death of this person. It is an utter joke that he can't be extradited, what is the difference between this and drink driving resulting in death? It is hard to believe the system can be so backwards in NZ that a killer can walk free, if there is no such charge in NZ does that mean he could repeatedly do the same thing in NZ and never be charged?
What a bad joke, imagine how her family must feel abouit the two countries now.
What a bad joke, imagine how her family must feel abouit the two countries now.