Runups on the runway?
Thread Starter
Runups on the runway?
Several times in the past week I have watched as a multi-engine IFR aircraft has entered and backtracked at a regional airport after a super-spreading aircraft has joined the circuit.
The pilot of the twin backtracks niiiiice and steady, then sits on the end of the runway as the turbine fletcher goes round, and round, and round... three go-rounds in one effort last week!
This is not an isolated incident but has happened three times in the last fortnight.
Surely there is ample time to do all your run-ups etc on the apron before the scheduled depature time....!?!
The pilot of the twin backtracks niiiiice and steady, then sits on the end of the runway as the turbine fletcher goes round, and round, and round... three go-rounds in one effort last week!
This is not an isolated incident but has happened three times in the last fortnight.
Surely there is ample time to do all your run-ups etc on the apron before the scheduled depature time....!?!
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Well sending another AC around is no good, but provided theres no other traffic at the time I don't see any problem with runups on the rwy. Used to do it at my last operator all the time in both singles and twins.
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runups on the rwy???
What about the basic tenets of airmanship and good manners? As a recently retired CP of a largish GA mob, any pilot doing runups on the rwy would have a big pls explain. That is what the runup bay is for. When you line up you are supposed to be ready, don't pass the holding point until you are. And as for causing other a/c to go round, it occurs to me that there is something in the AIP's about landing a/c having priority.That pilot would definitely be encouraged to keep flying - on the other side of oz.
Attitude is not restricted to an a/c.
PPRuNeaholic
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I don't see a problem in delaying the runups if taxying is prolonged. Of course, it's something else if it ends up causing an approaching aircraft to go around.
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if you have a long taxi, why not do the runups while taxiing? rather than while on the active runway? i was taught the only reason you should be on the active side of a holding point is to line up and take off, or on roll out after landing, and exit at the next available exit, unless cleared for a rollthrough.
I too use to be the chief pilot of a large all twin charter company up north until 2000 and if I found any of my pilots doing run ups with the park brake on I would send him down to the hangar afterwards with a file in hand to remove the nicks out of the props under the supervision of a LAME. Most aerodromes in Australia don’t have run up bays. That’s a trait of Primary airports, GAAP’s and larger regional aerodromes. Most have gravel or have very poor sealed surfaces with loose stones. Very few have full length taxiways either. Almost all have very small parking areas which leaves the pilot with very few options. Do the run ups in the parking bay and risk damaging the props from loose gravel or worse injuring someone nearby or doing them on the move. Brake pads are a small cost compared to props and the risk of injuring someone or damaging someone else’s property. It was just too high a risk hence the requirement to do run ups on the move with the exception of Cairns and Townsville where bays were provided. It is also worth mentioning that almost all POH that I have come across recommend run ups on the move if the airport is covered in loose gravel or clearing the area under the props to avoid chipping the props.
My experience with agricultural aircraft and their idea of a circuit is also greatly different. They regularly did very abbreviated circuits and on almost all occasions were operating no coms into and out of CTAFS. I lost count of the times I found myself backtracking Mareeba to find a duster turning a very close final at about 100 ft from a very close downwind. I had done all the required broadcasts and additional ones prior to entering the active. If they didn’t have radios surely they must have seen me backtracking the runway. I’m not saying this is what happened here but for the aircraft to have done three missed approaches before the twin departed seems excessive to say the least. Something here doesn’t add up.
My experience with agricultural aircraft and their idea of a circuit is also greatly different. They regularly did very abbreviated circuits and on almost all occasions were operating no coms into and out of CTAFS. I lost count of the times I found myself backtracking Mareeba to find a duster turning a very close final at about 100 ft from a very close downwind. I had done all the required broadcasts and additional ones prior to entering the active. If they didn’t have radios surely they must have seen me backtracking the runway. I’m not saying this is what happened here but for the aircraft to have done three missed approaches before the twin departed seems excessive to say the least. Something here doesn’t add up.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I was taught that if there is a run up bay on a good sealed surface then for the first flight of the day that is where you do run ups. If not available then they are done 'on the run'.
For the remaining flights of the day 'one the run' was SOP, and woe betide any pilot who did any runups stationary on a non sealed surface.
I remember the above being especially enforced when I was with DZ and Simbu in PNG.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
For the remaining flights of the day 'one the run' was SOP, and woe betide any pilot who did any runups stationary on a non sealed surface.
I remember the above being especially enforced when I was with DZ and Simbu in PNG.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Thread Starter
404,
just to remove the variables you raise from this particular argument
While there is no runup bay at this airport there is an adequate apron area free of loose stones. The points you raise about props etc are valid but in 10 years of operating at this airport - yes me too as Chief Pilot of a CHTR org - in twins and other types, some with wooden props, I have not had prop damage issues.
Similarly, the AG operator is very professional with radio procedures and while he doesn't fly 747 circuits he has on each occasion given more than enough time to backtrack, line up, maybe quickly check DI/HSI alignment and roll.
I just don't understand. Is this protracted procedure an operational requirement for an Aerocommander?
just to remove the variables you raise from this particular argument
While there is no runup bay at this airport there is an adequate apron area free of loose stones. The points you raise about props etc are valid but in 10 years of operating at this airport - yes me too as Chief Pilot of a CHTR org - in twins and other types, some with wooden props, I have not had prop damage issues.
Similarly, the AG operator is very professional with radio procedures and while he doesn't fly 747 circuits he has on each occasion given more than enough time to backtrack, line up, maybe quickly check DI/HSI alignment and roll.
I just don't understand. Is this protracted procedure an operational requirement for an Aerocommander?
In the 14 years I spent in GA I never saw brake temperatures being a problem from doing run ups on the move. If it was the manufacturers would prohibit it in their POH’s. They get no hotter than they would after land and having to apply them to stop. This isn’t to say you shouldn’t consider how long you are using them for. Pro-longed run ups on the move should be avoided at all cost, just as much as taxiing in long grass should be avoided after landing.
Horatio Leafblower
I have a photo around of two C404 props that were destroyed by loose stones on a sealed apron because the pilot elected to do his run ups at the holding point in complete violation of SOP’s. I have seen more damage done to aircraft in my time due to static run ups than anything else. Lateral thinking is needed here, not following something blindly because that is the way I was taught.
Horatio Leafblower
I have a photo around of two C404 props that were destroyed by loose stones on a sealed apron because the pilot elected to do his run ups at the holding point in complete violation of SOP’s. I have seen more damage done to aircraft in my time due to static run ups than anything else. Lateral thinking is needed here, not following something blindly because that is the way I was taught.
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So long as good airmanship is displayed, doing the run-ups on the go is and should be the norm.
In large twins such as the 404 etc the first flight of the day should be done prior to pax boarding and in a suitable location. After that on the run should be more than acceptable.
An old operator that I did some work for once upon a time told me that brake pads were cheaper than engine mounts and for that reason the bit single that he operated should be operated at a high (and smooth) idle during taxi, even if that means using the brakes to keep the speed under control. Same applies to run ups on the run.
There is no excuse for entering the runway when not ready and making someone go around.
In large twins such as the 404 etc the first flight of the day should be done prior to pax boarding and in a suitable location. After that on the run should be more than acceptable.
An old operator that I did some work for once upon a time told me that brake pads were cheaper than engine mounts and for that reason the bit single that he operated should be operated at a high (and smooth) idle during taxi, even if that means using the brakes to keep the speed under control. Same applies to run ups on the run.
There is no excuse for entering the runway when not ready and making someone go around.
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Well the best place for runups is on the takeoff roll, quick flick of the mags and props as you apply full power for the first flight of the day. Any noticeable problems just abort the takeoff! That was always the way I operated the 404.
I have a photo around of two C404 props that were destroyed by loose stones on a sealed apron because the pilot elected to do his run ups at the holding point in complete violation of SOP’s.
I believe our insurance company made a claim to the relevant council who owned the strip. I was surprised though that after forking out $50K + nothing was done about this strip.
I'matightbastard
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but provided theres no other traffic at the time I don't see any problem with runups on the rwy. Used to do it at my last operator all the time in both singles and twins
Not saying you're wrong, just that I don't like it.
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Is it standard procedure to do run-ups before every flight?
I used to fly of a light twin, six sectors a day, four days a week along side another twin/single (depending on the weather). Two of these sectors were very early in the morning and the other four were in the evening.
In the morning, it was common practice to backtrack on the runway and carry out the run-ups either on the backtrack (but only after the engines had been given sufficient time to warm up) or once we had lined up. For the second sector of the morning we would not do any run-ups just the pre-takeoffs and line-ups.
For the evening run, the run-ups were carried out prior to the loading of the pax and freight. We would then complete the remaining four sectors without any run-ups.
I logged some 1200 hours and 2 1/2 years on this operation and never once got told to do it differently. Was I doing it wrong the whole time?
I used to fly of a light twin, six sectors a day, four days a week along side another twin/single (depending on the weather). Two of these sectors were very early in the morning and the other four were in the evening.
In the morning, it was common practice to backtrack on the runway and carry out the run-ups either on the backtrack (but only after the engines had been given sufficient time to warm up) or once we had lined up. For the second sector of the morning we would not do any run-ups just the pre-takeoffs and line-ups.
For the evening run, the run-ups were carried out prior to the loading of the pax and freight. We would then complete the remaining four sectors without any run-ups.
I logged some 1200 hours and 2 1/2 years on this operation and never once got told to do it differently. Was I doing it wrong the whole time?
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It's not usually standard to run up an engine before every flight.
Up north, we used to complete runups before pax boarding on the first flight of the day stationary and on a sealed surface and we then did subsequent mag checks just after applying power on takeoff to ensure not fouled.
Just a couple of points, usually common sense prevails.
Where the surface is sealed, we used to do runups with the aircraft stationary, noting the clear area behind. We have never had any prop nick problems doing it this way. This allows 100% concentration on runups rather than the problem occuring of running off the runway or overrunning the end during a backtrack. With single engine a/c you can get away with runups on the run as there is no assymetric problems to worry about and the shorter time taken to complete.
Another thought, what happens to brake effectiveness as they heat up. I'm sure brake pads build up heat when trying to hold back 600 horses at 2200rpm (moving aircraft). What happens if a rejected takeoff be required?
On a non sealed aerodrome though, discression is of course necessary.
Up north, we used to complete runups before pax boarding on the first flight of the day stationary and on a sealed surface and we then did subsequent mag checks just after applying power on takeoff to ensure not fouled.
Just a couple of points, usually common sense prevails.
Where the surface is sealed, we used to do runups with the aircraft stationary, noting the clear area behind. We have never had any prop nick problems doing it this way. This allows 100% concentration on runups rather than the problem occuring of running off the runway or overrunning the end during a backtrack. With single engine a/c you can get away with runups on the run as there is no assymetric problems to worry about and the shorter time taken to complete.
Another thought, what happens to brake effectiveness as they heat up. I'm sure brake pads build up heat when trying to hold back 600 horses at 2200rpm (moving aircraft). What happens if a rejected takeoff be required?
On a non sealed aerodrome though, discression is of course necessary.
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I noticed a difference when I moved from 'down south' to the Top End.
In the Top End, run-ups for the first flight of the day is something you do before you loaded pax and freight.
Partly because it is bloody hot and their was only three piston engined charter planes in the whole top end that had airconditioners (!) and secondly, it removed the temptation to say 'ahh, bugger it' if you actually found something wrong during the run up with pax on board.
The big problem with the argument we are having here though, is not which is the best single way to do things.
The problem is that too many pilots are just doing what they were taught, shown by someone who was just doing what THEY were taught!
Most of the suggestions above are the best answer, in a certain situation.
F'rinstance, mates who did dingo baiting in C206's out at Halls Creek used to do their runups rolling up and down the strip first thing in the morning. There was no hardstand, no stone free area, just lots of red gravel. There were also no aggies, and very few no-radio itinerants arriving at 7am!
Transfer the situation to Ngukurr, a sealed strip with half a hectare of asphalt as a parking area, with Kingairs and C402s arriving at all times of the day and night -- there was no reason to do runups on the runway. Arrive there to find someone doing runups on the threshold in their Chieftain and you come to the conclusion that they are either too dumb to realise it isn't necessary or too lazy to sweep the area under their props on the hardstand. By the way, how the hell are ya, H.E?
A third situation might be a gravel parking area with a sealed runway. Well, provided it is not a busy area or time of day, the threshold is the one place that can be relied on to have had all the loose stones blown away. But why not put yourself on said threshold at an angle perhaps into wind (!) that allows you to keep an eye on downwind, base and final, just in case?
Use your head! Prioritize!
(1) don't put yourself in the path of a landing aircraft
(2) don't inconvenience an inbound aircraft, broadcast, listen, and vacate if necessary,
(3) then start thinking about taking care of your prop, etc.
In the Top End, run-ups for the first flight of the day is something you do before you loaded pax and freight.
Partly because it is bloody hot and their was only three piston engined charter planes in the whole top end that had airconditioners (!) and secondly, it removed the temptation to say 'ahh, bugger it' if you actually found something wrong during the run up with pax on board.
The big problem with the argument we are having here though, is not which is the best single way to do things.
The problem is that too many pilots are just doing what they were taught, shown by someone who was just doing what THEY were taught!
Most of the suggestions above are the best answer, in a certain situation.
F'rinstance, mates who did dingo baiting in C206's out at Halls Creek used to do their runups rolling up and down the strip first thing in the morning. There was no hardstand, no stone free area, just lots of red gravel. There were also no aggies, and very few no-radio itinerants arriving at 7am!
Transfer the situation to Ngukurr, a sealed strip with half a hectare of asphalt as a parking area, with Kingairs and C402s arriving at all times of the day and night -- there was no reason to do runups on the runway. Arrive there to find someone doing runups on the threshold in their Chieftain and you come to the conclusion that they are either too dumb to realise it isn't necessary or too lazy to sweep the area under their props on the hardstand. By the way, how the hell are ya, H.E?
A third situation might be a gravel parking area with a sealed runway. Well, provided it is not a busy area or time of day, the threshold is the one place that can be relied on to have had all the loose stones blown away. But why not put yourself on said threshold at an angle perhaps into wind (!) that allows you to keep an eye on downwind, base and final, just in case?
Use your head! Prioritize!
(1) don't put yourself in the path of a landing aircraft
(2) don't inconvenience an inbound aircraft, broadcast, listen, and vacate if necessary,
(3) then start thinking about taking care of your prop, etc.