Overweight aircraft
Overweight aircraft
Travelled Virgin Melbourne to Cairns on the direct flight (ETD 2130) a couple of nights ago.
We're all boarded and look ready to go on time. However, front door stays open like we are expecting a latecomer. 15 mins after departure time, FA announces we are overweight and they are looking for 5 volunteers to spend the night in Melbourne at Holiday Inn with a refund of their airfare and travel first thing next morning - they got their volunteers no problem.
About 10 mins later Captain comes on and says there was too much fuel on board - the options were offload pax or defuel plane - he said about 1.5 hours to do this. TAF for YBCS was virtually CAVOK.
All luggage was removed from hold and then put back minus that belonging to deplaned pax.
We eventually departed 1 hour late.
Surely Virgin would be aware of the TOW well before all the pax are on board and should be taking earlier steps to try and rectify the problem.
Anyway, that's my last flight on Virgin.
We're all boarded and look ready to go on time. However, front door stays open like we are expecting a latecomer. 15 mins after departure time, FA announces we are overweight and they are looking for 5 volunteers to spend the night in Melbourne at Holiday Inn with a refund of their airfare and travel first thing next morning - they got their volunteers no problem.
About 10 mins later Captain comes on and says there was too much fuel on board - the options were offload pax or defuel plane - he said about 1.5 hours to do this. TAF for YBCS was virtually CAVOK.
All luggage was removed from hold and then put back minus that belonging to deplaned pax.
We eventually departed 1 hour late.
Surely Virgin would be aware of the TOW well before all the pax are on board and should be taking earlier steps to try and rectify the problem.
Anyway, that's my last flight on Virgin.
It is not uncommon for the aircraft to be over-fuelled in error...
OR
Runway works in Melbourne requiring the shorter runway to be used...
OR
Last minute defect requiring a reduction in weight...
OR
OR
OR Etc. etc.
The possibilities are endless. Surfice to say, airlines don't remove passengers and pay for their accommodation without good reason!
OR
Runway works in Melbourne requiring the shorter runway to be used...
OR
Last minute defect requiring a reduction in weight...
OR
OR
OR Etc. etc.
The possibilities are endless. Surfice to say, airlines don't remove passengers and pay for their accommodation without good reason!
Bottums Up
Regular flights to SW of YBCS.
Plan CS-BIB-BIDAG ......
Cleared via BIB, planned route.
Never, EVER, flown over BIB, ALWAYS cleared "resume own navigation, track direct to BIDAG"
Surely ATC know I'm not really going near BIB, so why clear me that way?
Plan CS-BIB-BIDAG ......
Cleared via BIB, planned route.
Never, EVER, flown over BIB, ALWAYS cleared "resume own navigation, track direct to BIDAG"
Surely ATC know I'm not really going near BIB, so why clear me that way?
Even through your airline bashing stance , it sounds to me like it well handled...
1. Company does not fly overweight = good
2. Company tells pax reason = good
3. Company offer a suggestion that minimises everyone's delay = good
And the problems are....?
1. Company does not fly overweight = good
2. Company tells pax reason = good
3. Company offer a suggestion that minimises everyone's delay = good
And the problems are....?
As much as I agree with above said and the endless possibilties, I do see topdrops point. How often do people get asked to volunteer off the aeroplane?
Could you image doing that in 'GA' ha! You'd be shown the door if you offloaded pax OR fuel!!
Could you image doing that in 'GA' ha! You'd be shown the door if you offloaded pax OR fuel!!
Capt Fathom
The Captain's comments indicated overfuel was in error. We departed 16 - looked like full length avbl. I realise there can be many reasons for overweight, just surprised that they didn't do anything until all were on board. In the US, I've often been on flights that were overbooked and they solve the problem before boarding.
CS
I agree it's a good thing they don't operate overweight etc., but by not sorting it out earlier, it made a very long day for me even longer
Capt Claret
Your initial clearance is via planned route from a Tower controller. It wouldn't be too often that they give you anything different. The tracking direct BIDAG is an agreement between App and BN Center. The 146 nearly always tracks within a mile or two of BIB on this track anyway. If you don't want track shortening, just advise ATC - I'm sure they'll oblige you!!
The Captain's comments indicated overfuel was in error. We departed 16 - looked like full length avbl. I realise there can be many reasons for overweight, just surprised that they didn't do anything until all were on board. In the US, I've often been on flights that were overbooked and they solve the problem before boarding.
CS
I agree it's a good thing they don't operate overweight etc., but by not sorting it out earlier, it made a very long day for me even longer
Capt Claret
Your initial clearance is via planned route from a Tower controller. It wouldn't be too often that they give you anything different. The tracking direct BIDAG is an agreement between App and BN Center. The 146 nearly always tracks within a mile or two of BIB on this track anyway. If you don't want track shortening, just advise ATC - I'm sure they'll oblige you!!
Topdrop,
Let me explain further. I am only talking from experience, and can only go on the information you have supplied. Your profile states PPL + ATC, so you should get most of what I am saying.
+ Domestic turn-arounds are roughly 35 mins.
+ Therefore refuelling doesn't start until approx. 20mins before departure time.
+ For a flight from MEL to CNS, the normal fuel load would be high..(I don't fly 737's).
+ Refuelling isn't completed until up to 5 mins before departure.
+ Boarding starts around 20 mins before departure, ie before refuelling finishes.
If this was the case, then the TOW problem would not be known until very late.
The weights are not finalised until the passenger checkin closes, which can vary, (unless you fly Jet*), and the refuelling is complete.
The crew were no doubt sweating on the final passenger load when they became aware of the over-fuelling. Unfortunately, they were undermined by an amount equivalent to 5 passengers...500kgs.
I'm not sure about yor point re the CNS weather. Are you hinting that extra fuel would not be needed? CNS has a high Alternate minima. (Are you an ATC in CNS?). EG. At the moment, the CNS TTF states FEW020. Fine weather indeed. However, the forecast for later this evening is for TEMPO BKN012. That is below the ALTN Minima and would require the carriage of an additional 60 mins of fuel!
It is a rare event and one I have not witnessed, but could happen to any airline. Numerous forces were conspiring against your tired self that night!
Let me explain further. I am only talking from experience, and can only go on the information you have supplied. Your profile states PPL + ATC, so you should get most of what I am saying.
+ Domestic turn-arounds are roughly 35 mins.
+ Therefore refuelling doesn't start until approx. 20mins before departure time.
+ For a flight from MEL to CNS, the normal fuel load would be high..(I don't fly 737's).
+ Refuelling isn't completed until up to 5 mins before departure.
+ Boarding starts around 20 mins before departure, ie before refuelling finishes.
If this was the case, then the TOW problem would not be known until very late.
The weights are not finalised until the passenger checkin closes, which can vary, (unless you fly Jet*), and the refuelling is complete.
The crew were no doubt sweating on the final passenger load when they became aware of the over-fuelling. Unfortunately, they were undermined by an amount equivalent to 5 passengers...500kgs.
I'm not sure about yor point re the CNS weather. Are you hinting that extra fuel would not be needed? CNS has a high Alternate minima. (Are you an ATC in CNS?). EG. At the moment, the CNS TTF states FEW020. Fine weather indeed. However, the forecast for later this evening is for TEMPO BKN012. That is below the ALTN Minima and would require the carriage of an additional 60 mins of fuel!
It is a rare event and one I have not witnessed, but could happen to any airline. Numerous forces were conspiring against your tired self that night!
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Capt Claret,
Because ATC issue standard SIDs, STARs, and Route Clearances to follow in the event of radio failure, that's why.
And then when you don't suffer radio failure, which is the 99.999% case, revised track shortening becomes available.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Never, EVER, flown over BIB, ALWAYS cleared "resume own navigation, track direct to BIDAG
Surely ATC know I'm not really going near BIB, so why clear me that way?"
Surely ATC know I'm not really going near BIB, so why clear me that way?"
And then when you don't suffer radio failure, which is the 99.999% case, revised track shortening becomes available.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Topdrop
The fact that there was no wx requirements on CNS that night means little.
I have planned to Perth on many occasions with a taf that says cavok no sig and half way across the airport closes due fog. If we planned our fuel load on the basis of the taf we would be stuffed!
In many cases that "little voice" in your head (no not the one the medication fixes - where are my pills?) says that you need more that the bare minimum.
That all being said Capt Fathom has hit the nail pretty much on the head. The payloads vary significantly depending on the route - did you have more than one bag? If so - ITS YOUR FAULT! - seriously we plan on standard weights at the planning stage and if people turn up with more than the planned for bags the aeroplane is heavier - it doesn't take too much to make up 500kg a few extra people and a few extra bags.....
As for this being the last time you fly Virgin - fill your boots - but if being upfront and compliant is a problem for you I think that you need to have a bit of a think about what is important - they could have left the weight on, taken off and had a engine failure and spread the aeroplane over a 500m area - it really would have been your last flight on Virgin!
The fact that there was no wx requirements on CNS that night means little.
I have planned to Perth on many occasions with a taf that says cavok no sig and half way across the airport closes due fog. If we planned our fuel load on the basis of the taf we would be stuffed!
In many cases that "little voice" in your head (no not the one the medication fixes - where are my pills?) says that you need more that the bare minimum.
That all being said Capt Fathom has hit the nail pretty much on the head. The payloads vary significantly depending on the route - did you have more than one bag? If so - ITS YOUR FAULT! - seriously we plan on standard weights at the planning stage and if people turn up with more than the planned for bags the aeroplane is heavier - it doesn't take too much to make up 500kg a few extra people and a few extra bags.....
As for this being the last time you fly Virgin - fill your boots - but if being upfront and compliant is a problem for you I think that you need to have a bit of a think about what is important - they could have left the weight on, taken off and had a engine failure and spread the aeroplane over a 500m area - it really would have been your last flight on Virgin!
Bottums Up
Topdrop
I thought the in my original post might have been given more importance when read.
The permutations of aircraft loading are many and varied. Speaking for the operation with which I'm familiar, I get an EZFW at flight planning, just over an hour before departure.
I calculate what fuel I can carry, and if tankering, reduce this amount by 200kg to allow for a couple of walkup pax. More often than not I find that I could have taken more fuel than calculated.
Occasionally I'll get to the aircraft and things have changed and load control will be on the blower asking if the fuel load can be reduced, by anything up to a tonne.
Sometimes the request comes too late as the fuel is on.
Sometimes the fuel order gets read by a dyslexic and instead of 3700 kg one ends up with 7300kg. Sometimes the fuel system doesn't stop at the preset amount.
No one goes out of their way to make it more difficult than it needs to be, but we're in a very dynamic workplace.
I thought the
in my original post might have been given more importance when read.The permutations of aircraft loading are many and varied. Speaking for the operation with which I'm familiar, I get an EZFW at flight planning, just over an hour before departure.
I calculate what fuel I can carry, and if tankering, reduce this amount by 200kg to allow for a couple of walkup pax. More often than not I find that I could have taken more fuel than calculated.
Occasionally I'll get to the aircraft and things have changed and load control will be on the blower asking if the fuel load can be reduced, by anything up to a tonne.
Sometimes the request comes too late as the fuel is on.
Sometimes the fuel order gets read by a dyslexic and instead of 3700 kg one ends up with 7300kg. Sometimes the fuel system doesn't stop at the preset amount.
No one goes out of their way to make it more difficult than it needs to be, but we're in a very dynamic workplace.
Capt Claret,
My apologies - I must read all of the post, including smilies, next time.
By the way, sent one dirct BIDAG this arvo - missed BIB by 2.5NM, I'll have to try harder!
Dehavilland driver
I'm well aware of met's forecasting abilities.
I turned up with a carry on bag weighing 6.5KG - not too bad for 9 days away. I wasn't ever suggesting they takeoff overweight, I was just pissed off about the length of my day.
My apologies - I must read all of the post, including smilies, next time.
By the way, sent one dirct BIDAG this arvo - missed BIB by 2.5NM, I'll have to try harder!
Dehavilland driver
I'm well aware of met's forecasting abilities.
I turned up with a carry on bag weighing 6.5KG - not too bad for 9 days away. I wasn't ever suggesting they takeoff overweight, I was just pissed off about the length of my day.
Question to some one with 737 knowledge.
If a flight from MEL - CNS had max payload i.e. MZF would normal fuel on board + another couple of thousand KG put you close to max ramp weight, or MTOW for MEL.
Wondering what the limit would have been???
If a flight from MEL - CNS had max payload i.e. MZF would normal fuel on board + another couple of thousand KG put you close to max ramp weight, or MTOW for MEL.
Wondering what the limit would have been???
Last edited by RENURPP; 26th Mar 2005 at 23:05.
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Yeah. Don't know which model 737 was involved but you could easily have a problemo with max landing weight.
The -800 with max zero fuel weight would allow slightly less than 4 tonne at destination. Depending on the weather this may not be enough. You then look at lowering zero fuel weight to take extra gas.
Not saying this is what happened but it is a real problem with high zero fuel weights and crook weather at destination with the -800 .
The -800 with max zero fuel weight would allow slightly less than 4 tonne at destination. Depending on the weather this may not be enough. You then look at lowering zero fuel weight to take extra gas.
Not saying this is what happened but it is a real problem with high zero fuel weights and crook weather at destination with the -800 .
Indications above indicate weather to be fine.
Surely max landing weight would not require off loading passengers, just increase the fuel burn enroute to achieve max landing weight??
Surely max landing weight would not require off loading passengers, just increase the fuel burn enroute to achieve max landing weight??
Props are for boats!
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Well guys look at this one. This happened to me about 3 weeks ago on Brisbane-LAX flight.
Read the following time line of events:
930am- arrived at airport to notice flight delayed until 1415hrs from1210original time
1030am- flight delayed further for tech reasons now to 1615( recieved light refreshment voucher which could only be used at one restaurant with log line)
1040am-flight now delayed until 1650hrs
1330 - whilst waiting for flight at gate told to leave gate area for security check but could re-enter but not leavep not feasable because there were no amenities in the gate area
1700- flinally boarded the aircraft
1730- pushed back form gate only to be told by the Captain that they are returning to gate to pick up one more passenger
1800- finally push back again this time one of the doors didnt arm so taxied back in to gate AGAIN!
1820 techs enter aircraft to fix door
1835- push back
1850- airborne
We arrived in LAX at 1215 midday after customs had to wait in a long line to be served to get rescheduled flights. Many people missed there connections some because they were waiting in this line. It was not handled very well at all.
1445- I finally got to the counter and was scheduled on a NWA 308 to XXXXXxxx
Arrived in xxxxxxxxxxx at 2140
I have just rang the FF Program number in the states here to be advised that after all that inconvenience I will not be awarded any points for the American flights I was scheduled to fly on.
Despite getting my flight to xxxxxxx on time. It would be nice to still get those points I missed out on.
Sheep
Read the following time line of events:
930am- arrived at airport to notice flight delayed until 1415hrs from1210original time
1030am- flight delayed further for tech reasons now to 1615( recieved light refreshment voucher which could only be used at one restaurant with log line)
1040am-flight now delayed until 1650hrs
1330 - whilst waiting for flight at gate told to leave gate area for security check but could re-enter but not leavep not feasable because there were no amenities in the gate area
1700- flinally boarded the aircraft
1730- pushed back form gate only to be told by the Captain that they are returning to gate to pick up one more passenger
1800- finally push back again this time one of the doors didnt arm so taxied back in to gate AGAIN!
1820 techs enter aircraft to fix door
1835- push back
1850- airborne
We arrived in LAX at 1215 midday after customs had to wait in a long line to be served to get rescheduled flights. Many people missed there connections some because they were waiting in this line. It was not handled very well at all.
1445- I finally got to the counter and was scheduled on a NWA 308 to XXXXXxxx
Arrived in xxxxxxxxxxx at 2140
I have just rang the FF Program number in the states here to be advised that after all that inconvenience I will not be awarded any points for the American flights I was scheduled to fly on.
Despite getting my flight to xxxxxxx on time. It would be nice to still get those points I missed out on.
Sheep
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I rekon thats incredible sheep guts.
Aviation never fails to amaze me. You managed to travel to the other side of the world in less than six weeks without freezing half to death or getting scurvy, I bet you were stoked that there was no risk of pirates or that you didnt have to share a hammock with low-brows for six weeks. And all of that for about two weeks pay! Awesome story, cant wait to tell great grandad Cecil....he wont believe it.
Everything's relative. Perspective is everything.
Aviation never fails to amaze me. You managed to travel to the other side of the world in less than six weeks without freezing half to death or getting scurvy, I bet you were stoked that there was no risk of pirates or that you didnt have to share a hammock with low-brows for six weeks. And all of that for about two weeks pay! Awesome story, cant wait to tell great grandad Cecil....he wont believe it.
Everything's relative. Perspective is everything.
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Sounds like bollocks to me. The fuel figure for the loadsheet is given by the crew prior to the refueling being completed and does not change. (not on short haul anyway). This is the TOW calculated fuel.
The total fuel figure on EICAS is often different to that by sometimes up to 400kg but that doesn't mean you are over weight and people have to be offloaded. 5 people at 80kg is only 400kg.
I am now convinced that you lot who contribute the rubbish on these forums are all 152 check and training at best and am surprised you would ever be able to see thru all the red tape enough to get an aircraft started at all let alone airborne.
Dear oh dear.............
The total fuel figure on EICAS is often different to that by sometimes up to 400kg but that doesn't mean you are over weight and people have to be offloaded. 5 people at 80kg is only 400kg.
I am now convinced that you lot who contribute the rubbish on these forums are all 152 check and training at best and am surprised you would ever be able to see thru all the red tape enough to get an aircraft started at all let alone airborne.
Dear oh dear.............
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Because ATC issue standard SIDs, STARs, and Route Clearances to follow in the event of radio failure, that's why.
And then when you don't suffer radio failure, which is the 99.999% case, revised track shortening becomes available.
Great to see ATC are working efficiently on the 00.001% case. At what point after track shortening becomes available, can't you have a radio failure? Bloody amateurs! Only made more repulsive by excusing their lazy ineptitude with ridiculous assertions on safety.
