Private Owners
Thread Starter
Private Owners
A few days ago I received a phone call out of the blue from a pilot wanting to know whether one of my aircraft was available for private hire and if so whether we could come to some sort of arrangement as he is having problems with availability at his local flying school. Just how he came to get my details I don't know as they are registered under company names, but my initial reaction was to say no as I've never been comfortable with my aircraft being flown by people I don't know, however having considered it for a while I'm now thinking that if we can both benefit from it then perhaps it may be worthwhile as he has more or less guaranteed 10-15 hrs per month. I have lent my aircraft to a few people in the past but only those I know but I've never hired one to anyone, in fact they are not even on-line anywhere so this whole concept is new to me. I am wondering whether there are any other private owners here who might be help me with a few questions I have:
What sort of background or licence checks are available and how do I go about them?
How can I confirm his experience, flying ability and familiarity with the aircraft type?
Dry or wet hire?
What is a reasonable amount to charge for a medium to high performance single?
What arrangements need to be made to include him under my insurance policy?
What conditions or restrictions should I impose?
A
What sort of background or licence checks are available and how do I go about them?
How can I confirm his experience, flying ability and familiarity with the aircraft type?
Dry or wet hire?
What is a reasonable amount to charge for a medium to high performance single?
What arrangements need to be made to include him under my insurance policy?
What conditions or restrictions should I impose?
A
Join Date: Dec 2004
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G'Day, not sure if this helps but I crosshire my 172 out to the local aero club, all the checks are done by them, including a check flight either by someone at the club or myself. The insurance is covered by the club authorising the flight, and club members (unamed) are included on the insurance cover. I think that if an individual was to hire the plane I would have to notify the Insurer.
I also have an 100hour min time on type as it helps to reduce the premium, and also an exclusion from being used for training as that would also increase the premium. Contact your insurer and I'm sure they will be willing to help.
I also have an 100hour min time on type as it helps to reduce the premium, and also an exclusion from being used for training as that would also increase the premium. Contact your insurer and I'm sure they will be willing to help.
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For what my two bob's worth.......If you've got your own fuel carnets to go with the aircraft, I'd be inclined to go the wet hire. Dry hirers can sometimes be inclined to run the machine a little too lean in an effort to keep their fuel bill down!?!? I think the fuel-misers tend to be more of a concern with the higher performance/power pistons such as you've probably got. If you're supplying the fuel they'll quite possibly run it a tad richer than the book, and hey.........fuel is still cheaper than exhaust valves, exhausts, crankshafts etc.
Please note....I'm not suggesting that all private hirers would act in this manner........but I have heard of it happening on the odd occasion and it may be something for you to consider.
This is not to say you should exclude dry hires, especially if you wish to avoid excessive fuel charges if they take it outback. I dry hire a friends high-ish performance single and I'd never treat it other than as if it were my own for a second!!
Please note....I'm not suggesting that all private hirers would act in this manner........but I have heard of it happening on the odd occasion and it may be something for you to consider.
This is not to say you should exclude dry hires, especially if you wish to avoid excessive fuel charges if they take it outback. I dry hire a friends high-ish performance single and I'd never treat it other than as if it were my own for a second!!
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Call me overcautious but here are a few things to consider if you decide to hire out your aircraft.
1. Talk to your insurance company. Most will increase your premium especially if the hirer is low time.
2. Ensure that the hirer operates your aircraft the way YOU want it flown, (asuming you fly it correctly yourself, as per the POH).
3. Get a cash deposit from the hirer, if its good enough for Avis/Budget et al its good enough for you.
4. Put all conditions in writing - a contract.
5. Make it a condition of hire that the hirer is liable for all damage - INCLUDING insurance excess.
6. Wet hire, with a caveat that if the fuel price exceeds a certain limit, maybe $1.20/litre that the hirer pays the excess.
7. Check him/her out yourself with a log book inspection and test flight. Ask his instructor/flying school for recommendation - or not!
8. Make sure that the hirer is not going to do anything Illegal, you might become liable and/or an accessory.
Having said all that, make sure you REALLY want to go down this road. It might sound good but it could also be the biggest mistake you ever made - trust me - I know from experience, I hired my aircraft to an individual many years ago and it cost me a new engine when he failed to keep an eye on oil consumption and ran out of oil - BANG, new engine needed 1500 miles from home. Very expensive and a complete pain in the arse.
If the hirers initials are A.P., PM me.
BSB
1. Talk to your insurance company. Most will increase your premium especially if the hirer is low time.
2. Ensure that the hirer operates your aircraft the way YOU want it flown, (asuming you fly it correctly yourself, as per the POH).
3. Get a cash deposit from the hirer, if its good enough for Avis/Budget et al its good enough for you.
4. Put all conditions in writing - a contract.
5. Make it a condition of hire that the hirer is liable for all damage - INCLUDING insurance excess.
6. Wet hire, with a caveat that if the fuel price exceeds a certain limit, maybe $1.20/litre that the hirer pays the excess.
7. Check him/her out yourself with a log book inspection and test flight. Ask his instructor/flying school for recommendation - or not!
8. Make sure that the hirer is not going to do anything Illegal, you might become liable and/or an accessory.
Having said all that, make sure you REALLY want to go down this road. It might sound good but it could also be the biggest mistake you ever made - trust me - I know from experience, I hired my aircraft to an individual many years ago and it cost me a new engine when he failed to keep an eye on oil consumption and ran out of oil - BANG, new engine needed 1500 miles from home. Very expensive and a complete pain in the arse.
If the hirers initials are A.P., PM me.
BSB
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I suppose you have to be 'lucky' with your customers.
Some want to hire direct because they are refused hire from their local schools. Check their logbook for what aircraft they have flown recently and then check with those operators / owners. If you can, you do the check flight; you'll sleep better at night. Get them to use your checklist. Check with you insurance, it might say 'pilots approved by the insured' (you). Run your aircraft with an air switch as well as an Engine VDO. You can check whether they taxi too fast or do their checks on the run or not at all. There should be a difference of 0.3 if they do things correctly. Charge more than the average rate for your aircraft. That will keep the bargain hunters away. If they quibble about a dollar in your rate, they will cost you ten times in other shortcuts they do. I'd go for wet hire although it can cut both ways. If you go wet hire they get to places faster than you do and use more fuel. Flogging the engine is also expensive maintenance wise. If you hire it dry, as others have already explained, also can be expensive. You'll have to check on every flight what the fuel consumption was. Most aircraft can't be flown with full tanks and a full load. If you dry hire, you will find you get the aircraft back with less fuel in it than what it had when it left. That costs money. If you have a carnet, or if they use their own money, make an adjustment back to the rate you buy the fuel at. Have a think how you will feel flying your aircraft after someone else had a go at it. If something breaks in your aircraft, it might not be what you just did but might have started some time ago. Some one might have done a (what you think is) a heavy landing, but for them it's normal and they don't report it. I have come to airports and 'found' one of my aircraft parked beside the taxiway, with the doors open, no control locks in and no park brake or chocks. The aircraft got there 2 days earlier and obviously was left in that state then. Have a good think about it; it might cost you more than you gain.
Some want to hire direct because they are refused hire from their local schools. Check their logbook for what aircraft they have flown recently and then check with those operators / owners. If you can, you do the check flight; you'll sleep better at night. Get them to use your checklist. Check with you insurance, it might say 'pilots approved by the insured' (you). Run your aircraft with an air switch as well as an Engine VDO. You can check whether they taxi too fast or do their checks on the run or not at all. There should be a difference of 0.3 if they do things correctly. Charge more than the average rate for your aircraft. That will keep the bargain hunters away. If they quibble about a dollar in your rate, they will cost you ten times in other shortcuts they do. I'd go for wet hire although it can cut both ways. If you go wet hire they get to places faster than you do and use more fuel. Flogging the engine is also expensive maintenance wise. If you hire it dry, as others have already explained, also can be expensive. You'll have to check on every flight what the fuel consumption was. Most aircraft can't be flown with full tanks and a full load. If you dry hire, you will find you get the aircraft back with less fuel in it than what it had when it left. That costs money. If you have a carnet, or if they use their own money, make an adjustment back to the rate you buy the fuel at. Have a think how you will feel flying your aircraft after someone else had a go at it. If something breaks in your aircraft, it might not be what you just did but might have started some time ago. Some one might have done a (what you think is) a heavy landing, but for them it's normal and they don't report it. I have come to airports and 'found' one of my aircraft parked beside the taxiway, with the doors open, no control locks in and no park brake or chocks. The aircraft got there 2 days earlier and obviously was left in that state then. Have a good think about it; it might cost you more than you gain.
I have always thought hiring on tacho hours also looked after the engine. If it was me I would talk to my LAME to get the best idea on charging to instill the best practice. My old aeroclub regularly hired out at tacho hours. You didn't mind flying at 23/24 when it was logging you more hours than you pay for whilst still getting a reasonable TAS. Nowdays its all on hobbs as soon as its turning its burning your wallet. Gets the urge to get into the air in a hurry, incentive to taxi faster and also make the best avail taxiway exit to get you back to apron in a hurry...tacho removes all that
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QUOTE from I Fly
I have come to airports and 'found' one of my aircraft parked beside the taxiway, with the doors open, no control locks in and no park brake or chocks.
Mate
Are you serious. I can't understand why anyone would deliberatly treat another persons property like this. I hope you tracked the culprit down and gave him a swift kick up the arse.
I have come to airports and 'found' one of my aircraft parked beside the taxiway, with the doors open, no control locks in and no park brake or chocks.
Mate
Are you serious. I can't understand why anyone would deliberatly treat another persons property like this. I hope you tracked the culprit down and gave him a swift kick up the arse.
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dude65, yes I did and yes I did and no, I don't hire them my aircraft anymore. Unfortunately some pilot have 2 ways of flying. One while you are watching and another when they think you are far away. I don't want to say don't do it, just do it with your eyes open.
Thread Starter
Many thanks for the advice. The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to go with my initial reaction and say no, but I'll wait and see what my insurers have to say.
Thanks again
AS
Thanks again
AS
