The Fools in the sky
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The Fools in the sky
Position 2.8 miles north of Essendon walking the mutt and watching a Cessna 210/206? type at 1500 ft on long final for EN 17. Very peaceful area until the the pilot goes pitch full fine and many startled eyes turn upwards to see the fool in the sky.
The high pitched howl of a Cessna 210 at full fine is a well known noise around Essendon airport and yet this character goes full fine while still on long final knowing the C210 is a noisy aircraft. The only reason to select full fine pitch for landing is in case of a low level go-around and therefore it is perfectly safe to select full fine at 200 ft for landing. Even that is not necessary until an actual go-around is started.
Perhaps the experts on this forum can tell me if flying downhill in full fine and partial power for two or three minutes in a Cessna 210 is necessary from the engine handling point of view?
One thing for sure, and that is this idiot is one of the reasons why the local vocal minority are anxious to see the airport closed.
The high pitched howl of a Cessna 210 at full fine is a well known noise around Essendon airport and yet this character goes full fine while still on long final knowing the C210 is a noisy aircraft. The only reason to select full fine pitch for landing is in case of a low level go-around and therefore it is perfectly safe to select full fine at 200 ft for landing. Even that is not necessary until an actual go-around is started.
Perhaps the experts on this forum can tell me if flying downhill in full fine and partial power for two or three minutes in a Cessna 210 is necessary from the engine handling point of view?
One thing for sure, and that is this idiot is one of the reasons why the local vocal minority are anxious to see the airport closed.
Grandpa Aerotart
No it's not necesary Centaurus...it's just a pilot doing what he was taught by the, probably, very inexperienced pilot who taught him....my Bonanza has the same engine and prop (3 bladed Black Mac) that most 210s are fitted with and that NEVER happens when I come in to land....for one very good reason...at approach power and low enough speed (i.e. full flap and < 90kts) the prop will be on the fine pitch stops anyway...when you put the control in full fine you hear nothing because you have changed nothing.
On the other hand doing a PUFF check by rote as soon as you turn finals will almost certainly cause the howl you experienced...particularly if, as is common with many pilots, they are a little fast....which the extra drag from the prop in full fine at too high a power setting/ speed will help fix.
It's just brain dead and thoughtless.
But you already knew all that old fella
On the other hand doing a PUFF check by rote as soon as you turn finals will almost certainly cause the howl you experienced...particularly if, as is common with many pilots, they are a little fast....which the extra drag from the prop in full fine at too high a power setting/ speed will help fix.
It's just brain dead and thoughtless.
But you already knew all that old fella
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Not brain-dead OR thoughtless... just a pilot exercising his own comfort level of Airmanship (remember that word???)
I select Prop Full Increase nice and early. I also leave it in full power for ages after take-off. Why? Because I love the rasping sound of those Hartzell tips going transonic and so do folks on the ground. You can tell because they always look up in awe.
If you don't like the noise, why'd you move so close to the airport? here we go again...
Remember whan people loved the simple joys of flying? Now they love to whinge and snipe.
I select Prop Full Increase nice and early. I also leave it in full power for ages after take-off. Why? Because I love the rasping sound of those Hartzell tips going transonic and so do folks on the ground. You can tell because they always look up in awe.
If you don't like the noise, why'd you move so close to the airport? here we go again...
Remember whan people loved the simple joys of flying? Now they love to whinge and snipe.
Grandpa Aerotart
Yes I remember that word.
Like it or not many people who chose to live near an airfield do so because the council re-zoned land from swamp/garbage tip/waste land to residential...because councils are nearly all stacked to the ceiling with land developers/house builders....and the land is relatively cheap.
Like it or not the average citizen hears a howling prop overhead and looks up fearfully expecting to see an aircraft plunging out of the sky like some stupid war movie.
Personally I look up and just shake my head sadly.
Now do you think it would be good airmanship to operate in such a way that the average citizen has little to no idea you are there...or would good airmanship dictate exposing them to as much unnecesary aeroplane noise as possible? Given you are not exposing yourself to unreasonable extra risk by operating in such a sensitive manner.
On take off I too leave everything balls to the wall...to do otherwise is not simpathetic to the machinery and may, indeed probably will, reduce engine life and increase the risk of a failure at some point in the future...except when I am taking off over a noise sensitive area...like RWY 25 at Redcliffe....then as soon as possible I reduce RPM to 2500...leaving MP where it is...that does drive up the CHTs and probably increases wear on my engine...but so little that it is a fair tradeoff to reduce the ear splitting howl of my prop down a little bit...I also do an early right turn over the water staying as much as possible away from the houses.
It called being thoughtful and neighbourly...and is good AIRMANSHIP.
Like it or not many people who chose to live near an airfield do so because the council re-zoned land from swamp/garbage tip/waste land to residential...because councils are nearly all stacked to the ceiling with land developers/house builders....and the land is relatively cheap.
Like it or not the average citizen hears a howling prop overhead and looks up fearfully expecting to see an aircraft plunging out of the sky like some stupid war movie.
Personally I look up and just shake my head sadly.
Now do you think it would be good airmanship to operate in such a way that the average citizen has little to no idea you are there...or would good airmanship dictate exposing them to as much unnecesary aeroplane noise as possible? Given you are not exposing yourself to unreasonable extra risk by operating in such a sensitive manner.
On take off I too leave everything balls to the wall...to do otherwise is not simpathetic to the machinery and may, indeed probably will, reduce engine life and increase the risk of a failure at some point in the future...except when I am taking off over a noise sensitive area...like RWY 25 at Redcliffe....then as soon as possible I reduce RPM to 2500...leaving MP where it is...that does drive up the CHTs and probably increases wear on my engine...but so little that it is a fair tradeoff to reduce the ear splitting howl of my prop down a little bit...I also do an early right turn over the water staying as much as possible away from the houses.
It called being thoughtful and neighbourly...and is good AIRMANSHIP.
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Well said CC.
As we are a minority in the scheme of things it makes sense not to P#ss off others on the ground unnecessarily as we will be the big losers at the end of the day.
I know as many people who don’t like flying as who love it (I think mainly due to Media Sensationalism) and unfortunately whinging seems to be a national sport. SO WHY GIVE EM MORE AMMO???
Besides, why do the same thing for every circuit / approach??
Why not mix it up a bit and fly to the conditions / location?? Sure makes it more interesting, and that way everyone stays happy!!
As we are a minority in the scheme of things it makes sense not to P#ss off others on the ground unnecessarily as we will be the big losers at the end of the day.
Remember when people loved the simple joys of flying? Now they love to whinge and snipe.
Besides, why do the same thing for every circuit / approach??
Why not mix it up a bit and fly to the conditions / location?? Sure makes it more interesting, and that way everyone stays happy!!
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Don't confuse Airmanship with noise issues. My theory is that bloke just might've selected PFI for handling reasons. The extra noise is a consequence.
Personally I like the roar. I don't think it's bad Airmanship to do so because Airmanship (when Ronny taught me) was defined as:
"The safe and efficient handling of the aircraft both in the air and on the ground." Or something like that. No mention of consideration for the ground-stricken!!!!
They do??? Says who? Chicken Little??????
People need to be reminded flying is not like getting in a car. One way to do this and boost respect and admiration for flyers is to make a lot of loud, unpredictable, seemingly dangerous noise whenever possible.
Personally I like the roar. I don't think it's bad Airmanship to do so because Airmanship (when Ronny taught me) was defined as:
"The safe and efficient handling of the aircraft both in the air and on the ground." Or something like that. No mention of consideration for the ground-stricken!!!!
the average citizen hears a howling prop overhead and looks up fearfully expecting to see an aircraft plunging out of the sky
People need to be reminded flying is not like getting in a car. One way to do this and boost respect and admiration for flyers is to make a lot of loud, unpredictable, seemingly dangerous noise whenever possible.
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Bet you anything this poor fool slams his cowl flaps open at the same time.
Just plain poor airmanship.
Any fool knows not to go full fine on approach till about or less than 15" MAP.
Probably likes to lock up the brakes a couple of times during roll out too.
Would not employ such a character. Could not afford the maintenance.
Just plain poor airmanship.
Any fool knows not to go full fine on approach till about or less than 15" MAP.
Probably likes to lock up the brakes a couple of times during roll out too.
Would not employ such a character. Could not afford the maintenance.
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I'm sorry?
Hopefully I didn't miss something?
I have been told (by many) that I'm pretty dim, but unless I'm flying over a Fly Neighbourly area, or adhering to a noise abatement procedure, the last thing in my mind when I'm on final is whether I offend SOMEONE WALKING THEIR DOG if I go Pitch fully fine.
I seem to remember that it is:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
and NOT
Wonder about what a member of the public feels about the noise
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate!
Okay, the C210 pilot in question MAY have put Pitch fully fine a bit early, but hardly deserving of some of the comments here (Shame Currawong - some amazing leaps of logic there. Not sure if I'd like to work for you).
Since I'm guessing that none of you were in the cockpit (as I was not, nor do I know who was) can any of you confirm that:
1. There were conditions that the pilot was experiencing that THE PILOT FELT warranted PUFF checks at this time?
2. The pilot had more than a few hours on type?
3. The pilot had more than 200 hours?
4. The pilot may not have had a very experienced instructor, and was told that this was a good way to reduce speed.
CC, not everyone has had the benefit of your years, experience or expertise. Please forgive those of us who've got less hours and experience.
Besides, I'm sure that most people who live under a flight path are used to changes in engine pitch.
DIVOSH
I have been told (by many) that I'm pretty dim, but unless I'm flying over a Fly Neighbourly area, or adhering to a noise abatement procedure, the last thing in my mind when I'm on final is whether I offend SOMEONE WALKING THEIR DOG if I go Pitch fully fine.
I seem to remember that it is:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
and NOT
Wonder about what a member of the public feels about the noise
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate!
Okay, the C210 pilot in question MAY have put Pitch fully fine a bit early, but hardly deserving of some of the comments here (Shame Currawong - some amazing leaps of logic there. Not sure if I'd like to work for you).
Since I'm guessing that none of you were in the cockpit (as I was not, nor do I know who was) can any of you confirm that:
1. There were conditions that the pilot was experiencing that THE PILOT FELT warranted PUFF checks at this time?
2. The pilot had more than a few hours on type?
3. The pilot had more than 200 hours?
4. The pilot may not have had a very experienced instructor, and was told that this was a good way to reduce speed.
CC, not everyone has had the benefit of your years, experience or expertise. Please forgive those of us who've got less hours and experience.
Besides, I'm sure that most people who live under a flight path are used to changes in engine pitch.
DIVOSH
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1. I could not give a rats about noise abatement.
2. Getting ready for a go around at 1500' ? No one is that far behind an aircraft.
3. Slowing down? C206 with BETA mode maybe
4. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - my point exactly. Not much aviating here.
5. Do not care how many hours/experienced the instructor was. Imaterial. It is not the correct way to operate the machine.
6. Shame? Ha! Bite me.
2. Getting ready for a go around at 1500' ? No one is that far behind an aircraft.
3. Slowing down? C206 with BETA mode maybe
4. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - my point exactly. Not much aviating here.
5. Do not care how many hours/experienced the instructor was. Imaterial. It is not the correct way to operate the machine.
6. Shame? Ha! Bite me.
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I think the point that Centaurus was making was the doubtful practice of going into full fine on long final when it is not only unnecessary from the engine handling aspect, but the by-product is the unnecessary noise level generated by this practice over a highly populated area. After all, if normally sane people object to open exhaust hoons speeding around the suburbs, why should they not object to the same type of hoon in a 210 in pitch full fine and lots of manifold pressure on final.
Some may blame the instructor who checked the fool out, forgetting that the pilot himself has the responsibility to extend his aeronautical knowledge well beyond what his grade 3 instructor might have taught him.
The POH of some aircraft -the Chieftain comes to mind - recommends that the pitch control levers are selected to full fine after landing because in a normal GA there is sufficient time to slip into full fine during the GA procedure.
The noisy C210 is a well known operator at Essendon. And I don't know about these days, but another operator at Essendon in years past operated a well maintained Harvard. He used to take off on runway 17 from a position several hundred metres displaced down the runway which resulted in the characteristic Harvard howl at full power right over the built up area of Niddrie at 2-300 ft. His excuse was that it saved him the cost of brake usage from outside his hangar and taxying up to the northern end of runway 17 for take off from the threshold.
When one day he asked for an intersection take off in his Harvard and was queried by ATC why he would not accept a full length, he replied it was an "operational requirement!". What utter crap...
Some may blame the instructor who checked the fool out, forgetting that the pilot himself has the responsibility to extend his aeronautical knowledge well beyond what his grade 3 instructor might have taught him.
The POH of some aircraft -the Chieftain comes to mind - recommends that the pitch control levers are selected to full fine after landing because in a normal GA there is sufficient time to slip into full fine during the GA procedure.
The noisy C210 is a well known operator at Essendon. And I don't know about these days, but another operator at Essendon in years past operated a well maintained Harvard. He used to take off on runway 17 from a position several hundred metres displaced down the runway which resulted in the characteristic Harvard howl at full power right over the built up area of Niddrie at 2-300 ft. His excuse was that it saved him the cost of brake usage from outside his hangar and taxying up to the northern end of runway 17 for take off from the threshold.
When one day he asked for an intersection take off in his Harvard and was queried by ATC why he would not accept a full length, he replied it was an "operational requirement!". What utter crap...
Grandpa Aerotart
Nothing to forgive Di Vosh. Please don't read a tone of voice into my writings that I hope wasn't there
It is a point of airmanship...not just because of the noise issue...it's equally a point of polish and shows the pilot has some understanding of the systems...in this case the prop.
It was a point of airmanship driven home to me during my C/S and retractable undercarriage endorsement on the C182rg...23 odd years ago...when I had way less than 200hrs.
If you have to put the prop up so early you have clearly misjudged your approach...if it is being done because of rote learning from an Instructor who only has a few hrs on type himself, and that is very typical of what goes on, then that is sad but not the pilots fault.
This is just one example of the finer points of airmanship which has been lost in the last 20yrs...to often.
I often grab one of the instructors, particularly the younger ones at Redcliffe Aeroclub and throw them in the left seat of my Bonanza if I'm going for a short fly...like to pick up my daughter from Maroochy when she used to visit her mother there...or a test flight...or just a jolly. Basics like not riding the brakes when taxiing and using full rudder/nose wheel stearing to turn on taxiways BEFORE a dab of brake if needed (and therefore taxiing at a speed slow enough so brake is not needed) and minimum break away power used to commence taxiing, and proper checklist management, and scans backed up by checks to accomplish configuration changes...and the right time to select full fine pitch so the prop is already on it's fine pitch stop...and on, etc, etc. All the above are recurring themes with young instructors...some with well over 1000hrs.
After a little while their whole operation becomes much smoother and controlled...they engage brain. I don't get to do it as often as I used to because I'm based overseas now...but the ones who listen and were accordingly considerate of MY aeroplane are the ones who get a phone call saying..."Hey the Bonanza needs to be flown here for radio work or there for whatever...wanna do it for me?"
On the other hand if I was anywhere near YRED and looked up at the wail of a prop and saw it was my Bonanza the CFI would get a call and the pilot a talking at.
It is a point of airmanship...not just because of the noise issue...it's equally a point of polish and shows the pilot has some understanding of the systems...in this case the prop.
It was a point of airmanship driven home to me during my C/S and retractable undercarriage endorsement on the C182rg...23 odd years ago...when I had way less than 200hrs.
If you have to put the prop up so early you have clearly misjudged your approach...if it is being done because of rote learning from an Instructor who only has a few hrs on type himself, and that is very typical of what goes on, then that is sad but not the pilots fault.
This is just one example of the finer points of airmanship which has been lost in the last 20yrs...to often.
I often grab one of the instructors, particularly the younger ones at Redcliffe Aeroclub and throw them in the left seat of my Bonanza if I'm going for a short fly...like to pick up my daughter from Maroochy when she used to visit her mother there...or a test flight...or just a jolly. Basics like not riding the brakes when taxiing and using full rudder/nose wheel stearing to turn on taxiways BEFORE a dab of brake if needed (and therefore taxiing at a speed slow enough so brake is not needed) and minimum break away power used to commence taxiing, and proper checklist management, and scans backed up by checks to accomplish configuration changes...and the right time to select full fine pitch so the prop is already on it's fine pitch stop...and on, etc, etc. All the above are recurring themes with young instructors...some with well over 1000hrs.
After a little while their whole operation becomes much smoother and controlled...they engage brain. I don't get to do it as often as I used to because I'm based overseas now...but the ones who listen and were accordingly considerate of MY aeroplane are the ones who get a phone call saying..."Hey the Bonanza needs to be flown here for radio work or there for whatever...wanna do it for me?"
On the other hand if I was anywhere near YRED and looked up at the wail of a prop and saw it was my Bonanza the CFI would get a call and the pilot a talking at.
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I must say that this post has made me feel sad that some posters have labled the 210 pilot a "fool" based on no other knowledge of the situation other than the posting of Centaurus walking his dog.
Perhaps the Essendon Chronicle, or whatever it is called, should cotact Centaurus for its airport media grab, and if that happened perhaps you would slag Cent..
May I suggest Centaurus that it would have been more constructive to have taken an intructional approach to this matter rather than just "slagging off" and jumping on a dubious bandwagon.
Perhaps the Essendon Chronicle, or whatever it is called, should cotact Centaurus for its airport media grab, and if that happened perhaps you would slag Cent..
May I suggest Centaurus that it would have been more constructive to have taken an intructional approach to this matter rather than just "slagging off" and jumping on a dubious bandwagon.
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It's very sad to see such comments !!! Centaurus, with all due respect Mr The Pilot, I think you're the fool in the whole picture.
Instead of bitching so much about that other fellow, maybe you should think of other ways of starting new posts. I'm very sure there're other interesting things to talk about.
Maybe he was taught this way....so what? As long as he does it nice and easy I don't see any problem. A much better alternative would have been to talk to him...pass on that great knowledge and experience you have...
And by the way, I love aircraft noise too....bring it on !!! You're not happy...well...cover yr ears...
Regards,
FLM.
Instead of bitching so much about that other fellow, maybe you should think of other ways of starting new posts. I'm very sure there're other interesting things to talk about.
Maybe he was taught this way....so what? As long as he does it nice and easy I don't see any problem. A much better alternative would have been to talk to him...pass on that great knowledge and experience you have...
And by the way, I love aircraft noise too....bring it on !!! You're not happy...well...cover yr ears...
Regards,
FLM.
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Well I guess the posts here, prove that in some cases, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him enjoy the view.
If PPRuNe were to have an official policy on this issue (we dont') and we have sat through hours of discussion on it and other issues it would be on the side of Centaurus/Chimbu Chuckles et al insofar as the operational aspects are concerned.
You may argue the effectiveness of the Thread title, and it did get your attention, but the lessons remain nonetheless.
What you do about it, as always remains up to the individual.
If PPRuNe were to have an official policy on this issue (we dont') and we have sat through hours of discussion on it and other issues it would be on the side of Centaurus/Chimbu Chuckles et al insofar as the operational aspects are concerned.
You may argue the effectiveness of the Thread title, and it did get your attention, but the lessons remain nonetheless.
What you do about it, as always remains up to the individual.
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Good for you Chimbu chuckles.
Being able to cadge a ride with an expert should not be under - rated. I was fortunate to be able to do this on a few occasions, it paid off later on.
Some folks here do not agree with what some of us have to say, fair enough.
Then again, some of us have difficulty jumping to the defence of incompetence.
Each to their own.
Being able to cadge a ride with an expert should not be under - rated. I was fortunate to be able to do this on a few occasions, it paid off later on.
Some folks here do not agree with what some of us have to say, fair enough.
Then again, some of us have difficulty jumping to the defence of incompetence.
Each to their own.
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there is a lovely old chap who regularly flies into YHOX in his beautifull harvard! (the green and light grey camo) every time he departs he draws everyone from the hangers, just to listen to the crack of that huge prop going supersonic! an awesome noise, and sight! then sure enough, all the complaints come in.
yet all the surrounding suburbs have thses huge yellow signs saying " This area is within the area of Hoxton Park airport and subject to aircraft noise! please take this into consideration if deciding to purchase a property in this area"
even so, the airfeild will be closed in 4 yrs due to noise and development pressures. very sad.
yet all the surrounding suburbs have thses huge yellow signs saying " This area is within the area of Hoxton Park airport and subject to aircraft noise! please take this into consideration if deciding to purchase a property in this area"
even so, the airfeild will be closed in 4 yrs due to noise and development pressures. very sad.
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cornholeyo
If that is what you believe 'airmanship' to be... you have a lot to learn.
Sure we should consider the people on the ground etc., but we should also look after our aeroplane. This practice as outlined at the start does neither and is poor airmanship from wherever you stand (dog or no dog)....!
Personally I like the roar. I don't think it's bad Airmanship to do so because Airmanship (when Ronny taught me) was defined as:
"The safe and efficient handling of the aircraft both in the air and on the ground." Or something like that. No mention of consideration for the ground-stricken!!!!
"The safe and efficient handling of the aircraft both in the air and on the ground." Or something like that. No mention of consideration for the ground-stricken!!!!
If that is what you believe 'airmanship' to be... you have a lot to learn.
Sure we should consider the people on the ground etc., but we should also look after our aeroplane. This practice as outlined at the start does neither and is poor airmanship from wherever you stand (dog or no dog)....!
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Sense of proportion?
I feel that this Pilot is being harshly treated here.
I've made plenty of mistakes during my training and in my flying, but OBVIOUSLY some of the posters here have NEVER done something so heinous as going Pitch full fine early!
I'd hesitate to label someone incompetent on the basis of one single hearsay incident of this nature.
If you want this pilot (and others who may be about to start their CSU endorsement) to take notice; a more constructive approach with your advice is generally more effective.
As for considering the people on the ground, where does that stop? People who live near airports or under flight paths really shouldn't complain too much about noise. In Melbourne at least, they were ALL there before the housing was there.
Drive to Point Cook and look at some of the signs by the roadside, if you want some warm fuzzy neighbourly feeling. Signs like "NO CIRCUITS" or "YES MUSEUM. NO AIRCRAFT", etc. (I'm not sure if it's there still, but there was a rooftop sign that said "F**K OFF AIRCRAFT"). All from properties that are less than three years old, regarding flying at an airport that has been there for 90 years.
DIVOSH!
P.S. Thanks Chimbu. Nothing extra read in your post.
I've made plenty of mistakes during my training and in my flying, but OBVIOUSLY some of the posters here have NEVER done something so heinous as going Pitch full fine early!
I'd hesitate to label someone incompetent on the basis of one single hearsay incident of this nature.
If you want this pilot (and others who may be about to start their CSU endorsement) to take notice; a more constructive approach with your advice is generally more effective.
As for considering the people on the ground, where does that stop? People who live near airports or under flight paths really shouldn't complain too much about noise. In Melbourne at least, they were ALL there before the housing was there.
Drive to Point Cook and look at some of the signs by the roadside, if you want some warm fuzzy neighbourly feeling. Signs like "NO CIRCUITS" or "YES MUSEUM. NO AIRCRAFT", etc. (I'm not sure if it's there still, but there was a rooftop sign that said "F**K OFF AIRCRAFT"). All from properties that are less than three years old, regarding flying at an airport that has been there for 90 years.
DIVOSH!
P.S. Thanks Chimbu. Nothing extra read in your post.
Thread Starter
Hey chaps - steady the Buffs. The introduction to the original post was me walking my mutt. Like all of you who replied and thanks for that, I love the wonderful sound of an aeroplane at full throttle. The crackling roar of a Canberra bomber, the Avro Vulcan, Super Sabre, the McDonnell Voodoo (saw one at Townsville doing a low level afterburner beat up for the troops just on twilight - what a breathtaking sight and sound), and of course who can forget the noise at the Avalon airshows of the F16 and Super Hornets. The old Mustang at Point Cook with its lovely Rolls Royce Merlin isn't bad either.
But full fine at partial throttle at 1200 ft on final in a Cessna 210 is not a wonderful heart warming noise - it is a bloody awful harsh whining noise (like the writer some of you will think) that stinks of poor airmanship. And it does make people look suddenly skywards because it is not a nice noise. And that was the point of the original post - it is not necessary in terms of engine handling (airmanship). Woomera, thanks.
Anyway, I think the subject has been done to death by now, don't you.
But full fine at partial throttle at 1200 ft on final in a Cessna 210 is not a wonderful heart warming noise - it is a bloody awful harsh whining noise (like the writer some of you will think) that stinks of poor airmanship. And it does make people look suddenly skywards because it is not a nice noise. And that was the point of the original post - it is not necessary in terms of engine handling (airmanship). Woomera, thanks.
Anyway, I think the subject has been done to death by now, don't you.