C172 to Gazelle ultralight
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C172 to Gazelle ultralight
Hi fellas,
Due to financial constraints I am having to transfer my flying to the Ultra light version (I'm upto 23 hours and past the point of no return!!).
Do any of you guys know whats involved in the change over and what is the difference in handling (particularly in landing) between flying a C172 and, say a Jabiru or Gazelle??
Any help would be appreciated
Regards
Mal
Due to financial constraints I am having to transfer my flying to the Ultra light version (I'm upto 23 hours and past the point of no return!!).
Do any of you guys know whats involved in the change over and what is the difference in handling (particularly in landing) between flying a C172 and, say a Jabiru or Gazelle??
Any help would be appreciated
Regards
Mal
G'day maldob
There isn't that much involved but it depends on you!
If you have GA theory exam credits (Pre solo, Area solo, BAK or PPL), they can be credited towards your AUF Pilot Certificate theory.
If you hold a GFPT with 10 hours PIC, you only need to complete 5 hours ultralight time to have a recreational pilot certificate with passenger carrying priveleges.
You can do 5 hours nav (syllabus minimum) to get your cross-country endorsement but I would recommend around 10+ hours of Nav training... the 5 hours in the AUF/RAA syllabus is just enough to ensure you get lost properly
More questions PM me. There are also some good websites for info - some of the best info about converting GA to AUF is on the Scone Aero Club website www.sconeaeroclub.com.au on their flight training page there is a .pdf document with a very thorough rundown.
Cheers
There isn't that much involved but it depends on you!
If you have GA theory exam credits (Pre solo, Area solo, BAK or PPL), they can be credited towards your AUF Pilot Certificate theory.
If you hold a GFPT with 10 hours PIC, you only need to complete 5 hours ultralight time to have a recreational pilot certificate with passenger carrying priveleges.
You can do 5 hours nav (syllabus minimum) to get your cross-country endorsement but I would recommend around 10+ hours of Nav training... the 5 hours in the AUF/RAA syllabus is just enough to ensure you get lost properly
More questions PM me. There are also some good websites for info - some of the best info about converting GA to AUF is on the Scone Aero Club website www.sconeaeroclub.com.au on their flight training page there is a .pdf document with a very thorough rundown.
Cheers
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 29th Jan 2005 at 01:02.
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i have made the change from Piper Archers and Arrows into Jabirus, sapphires and soon to be Cri cri's
The performance of a Jabiru is similar to a C152. cruises at about 95 Kts, endurance of about 4 hrs.
as for handling differences, first is the stick setup, centrally mounted. which after just a few mins sitting in feels quite natural, and the trottle is between your legs in front of the seat. again, apart from looking unusual, is easy to use
The climb performance of your average jabiru will be a ot better than most GA types, today, i flew with 1 pax, full fuel, 28 deg day, and still managed 1200 Ft/min climb up to 6000 ft at 85 kts.
another major difference is, the jabiru, and most other recreational aircraft is plenty of rudder is needed into and out of turns to keep happilly balanced. An archer or Arrow can be flown almost entirly without touching the rudder, whereas using aileron in a jabiru will simply cause roll and little turn rate.
As with most composite aircraft, there is a lot less parasite drag on the airframe, and with more advanced aerodynamic design, the jabiru is a little difficult to slow to approach speed. (as compared to a cessna or archer/warrior) especially from cruise descents at 110 Kts. on final good speed mangemnt will help a lot. if your too high with full flap, pulling power back will do little, and therfor either sideslipping or s turns are required to lose heigh without accelerating. pushing the nose down will rapidly get speed above the max flap extension speed of 70 kts.
as for flare and touchdown, the best config is full flap at 65 Kts with just a touch of power, and the flare and landing will be similar to most GA types, and with the main gear close to the COG, keeping the nosewheel up is almost automatic and it can be kept up as long as the ASI is reading.
with the trim set in full nose up, it it possible to get the jabiru to lift the nosewheel while stationary!! quite a shock for students and pilots alike who have forgotten to set trim to neutral before take off! (yes i have done it myself, lined up, got to about 80% power and suddenly found myself looking at the sky with the tail on the ground while sitting still) its no problem, just push the nose down, push the trim to neutral and continue the take off roll and hope no one saw you!
general handling of jabiru's and most ultralights are a lot more responsive in flight and require small movements to fly, as most control systems in UL's are pushrod types.
Crosswinds dont pose much of a prob either, last weejend in Syd, wind was 25 Kts at 45 deg across the strip at hoxton park, and made for a few hours of good crosswind flying, the jab handles both techniques well, either wing down to keep in track, or using rudder and kicking it straight at the flare. the max CW component is 15 kts.
hopefully in a few days, i will have a video of an hour in a jabiru i can upload to the web.
With the hours required, quoted above, these are legal minimums, again your instructor will decide when your ready,
Usual Cross country endorsment will ba about 10 to 15 hrs. usually about 3 navs of 3 hours or so. the reason this is a lot less is because using VOR, DME and other nav aids is not required, just the basic MAP, ground, speed technique. once you have mastered getting from A to B with nothing but a map, watch and compass, you will be issued with the endorsment.
The performance of a Jabiru is similar to a C152. cruises at about 95 Kts, endurance of about 4 hrs.
as for handling differences, first is the stick setup, centrally mounted. which after just a few mins sitting in feels quite natural, and the trottle is between your legs in front of the seat. again, apart from looking unusual, is easy to use
The climb performance of your average jabiru will be a ot better than most GA types, today, i flew with 1 pax, full fuel, 28 deg day, and still managed 1200 Ft/min climb up to 6000 ft at 85 kts.
another major difference is, the jabiru, and most other recreational aircraft is plenty of rudder is needed into and out of turns to keep happilly balanced. An archer or Arrow can be flown almost entirly without touching the rudder, whereas using aileron in a jabiru will simply cause roll and little turn rate.
As with most composite aircraft, there is a lot less parasite drag on the airframe, and with more advanced aerodynamic design, the jabiru is a little difficult to slow to approach speed. (as compared to a cessna or archer/warrior) especially from cruise descents at 110 Kts. on final good speed mangemnt will help a lot. if your too high with full flap, pulling power back will do little, and therfor either sideslipping or s turns are required to lose heigh without accelerating. pushing the nose down will rapidly get speed above the max flap extension speed of 70 kts.
as for flare and touchdown, the best config is full flap at 65 Kts with just a touch of power, and the flare and landing will be similar to most GA types, and with the main gear close to the COG, keeping the nosewheel up is almost automatic and it can be kept up as long as the ASI is reading.
with the trim set in full nose up, it it possible to get the jabiru to lift the nosewheel while stationary!! quite a shock for students and pilots alike who have forgotten to set trim to neutral before take off! (yes i have done it myself, lined up, got to about 80% power and suddenly found myself looking at the sky with the tail on the ground while sitting still) its no problem, just push the nose down, push the trim to neutral and continue the take off roll and hope no one saw you!
general handling of jabiru's and most ultralights are a lot more responsive in flight and require small movements to fly, as most control systems in UL's are pushrod types.
Crosswinds dont pose much of a prob either, last weejend in Syd, wind was 25 Kts at 45 deg across the strip at hoxton park, and made for a few hours of good crosswind flying, the jab handles both techniques well, either wing down to keep in track, or using rudder and kicking it straight at the flare. the max CW component is 15 kts.
hopefully in a few days, i will have a video of an hour in a jabiru i can upload to the web.
With the hours required, quoted above, these are legal minimums, again your instructor will decide when your ready,
Usual Cross country endorsment will ba about 10 to 15 hrs. usually about 3 navs of 3 hours or so. the reason this is a lot less is because using VOR, DME and other nav aids is not required, just the basic MAP, ground, speed technique. once you have mastered getting from A to B with nothing but a map, watch and compass, you will be issued with the endorsment.
Last edited by Ultralights; 29th Jan 2005 at 09:49.
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Thanks for the responses fellas, you have been alot of help. I'm going upto Airsports Flying Club at Sunbury Vic on Sunday to have a look round, have you heard anything about these guys??
I think because of the size of me (6"3 and 103kg) the instructor thinks I'd be best suited to a Gazelle or Stork, I would imagine the flying characteristics of these two will be similar to the Jab??
Finally, is there any websites that you know of who have forums like this one specifically for Ultras??
Thanks again
Mal
I think because of the size of me (6"3 and 103kg) the instructor thinks I'd be best suited to a Gazelle or Stork, I would imagine the flying characteristics of these two will be similar to the Jab??
Finally, is there any websites that you know of who have forums like this one specifically for Ultras??
Thanks again
Mal
Weight and balance
If you're in a Gazelle you'd better have a lightweight instructor!
BEW = 330kg
You= 103kg
Instructor=80kg
AUW=513kg.
Max TOW 520kg
Leaves you, oh, a lazy 7kg (about 9.7litres) for fuel!
Never flown a Gazelle but I have heard that below about 30 deg C it will perform well at up to 50kg overloaded.
Steer clear of the 2-strokes... too risky IMHO.
BEW = 330kg
You= 103kg
Instructor=80kg
AUW=513kg.
Max TOW 520kg
Leaves you, oh, a lazy 7kg (about 9.7litres) for fuel!
Never flown a Gazelle
but I have heard that below about 30 deg C it will perform well at up to 50kg overloaded.Steer clear of the 2-strokes... too risky IMHO.
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2 strokes to risky? hmmm maybe in the 80's! not now. A vast majority of engine failures in 2 strokes are caused by Cold seizure! pulling the power to quickly, causing the cylinder housing to contract due to cooling faster than the piston. bad engine management! try telling Rotax 2 strokes are risky!! 
i feel no different flying something powered by a 2 stroke than a jabiru or continental or lycombing
Stork ??? do you mean Storch? the storch is an Amazing aircraft! capable of controlled flight at 15 KTS!!!!!!! a strorch has NO crosswind maximum, if the wind exceeds 15 kts, land across the strip and stop in less than the aircraft own length!
i dont think a storch would be a good trainer. great for Stoll and Taildragger training but thats about it.
sadly there are no real active forums for Ultralights, ( i have tried to start some to no avail, most Ultralight owners and pilots are actually out flying) the best site to check out is www.raa.asn.au or yahoo groups.
if your in Syd, www.sydneyjabiru.com
the only RAA flight school in Sydney basin, and Cheap! give them a call.
i feel no different flying something powered by a 2 stroke than a jabiru or continental or lycombingStork ??? do you mean Storch? the storch is an Amazing aircraft! capable of controlled flight at 15 KTS!!!!!!! a strorch has NO crosswind maximum, if the wind exceeds 15 kts, land across the strip and stop in less than the aircraft own length!
i dont think a storch would be a good trainer. great for Stoll and Taildragger training but thats about it.
sadly there are no real active forums for Ultralights, ( i have tried to start some to no avail, most Ultralight owners and pilots are actually out flying) the best site to check out is www.raa.asn.au or yahoo groups.
if your in Syd, www.sydneyjabiru.com
the only RAA flight school in Sydney basin, and Cheap! give them a call.
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Hi Ultra,
I'm advised that it is a Storch but its not the one that resembles the German spotter plane. I have been advised that it is an Italian built steed with a trike undercarriage?? I've had a look on the web but can't find anything??
Regards
Mal
I'm advised that it is a Storch but its not the one that resembles the German spotter plane. I have been advised that it is an Italian built steed with a trike undercarriage?? I've had a look on the web but can't find anything??
Regards
Mal
