Frozen NZ ATPL
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Frozen NZ ATPL
Can one do the ATPL theory after CPL completion and have frozen ATPL credits? How long are the credits valid (do they expire if the hours are not obtained within a certain time frame?)
No such thing as a 'Frozen ATPL' in NZ. Yes, you can do the exams. Not sure on their validity period. However....nothing magically turns into an ATPL after 'x' hours of flying. NZ requires a flight test for the issue of their ATPL.
To follow 'fATPL' logic, when you're a student pilot with PPL theory exam credits are you really a 'Frozen PPL'? Or if a PPL with CPL exams does that make you a 'Frozen CPL'?
To follow 'fATPL' logic, when you're a student pilot with PPL theory exam credits are you really a 'Frozen PPL'? Or if a PPL with CPL exams does that make you a 'Frozen CPL'?
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Of the 7 ATPL exams, Law is the only one with a limited time b4 you have to fork our more $$$ to ASL.
So do the 6 then wait till you're near a flight test and then cut out Law.
So do the 6 then wait till you're near a flight test and then cut out Law.
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hey CT7, what's up?
With regard to NZ ATPL subjects.
I don't think you can sit a higher category theory subject to fulfil the requirements for a lower license. I.e you can't sit ATPL subjects and use the credits towards a CPL issue. That was the case for a while when I was instructing many moons ago, but may have changed since then.
Had something to do with the CPL & ATPL subjects "assuming" you have acceptable knowledge of a particular topic of a lower license category and therefore didn't cover some sub-topics, to avoid doubling up of syllabus.
A new system on the drawing boards though is a time limit to be imposed on ALL theory subjects. Something along the lines of 2 years from first subject passed till issue of your PPL, 3 or 4 years from first CPL subject to issue of license, and 5 years for an ATPL.
Retrospective passes will be counted as being done on the first day the system is in place and then you 2,3,4 or 5 years to achieve your relevant license.
Not sure how advanced this system is to being introduced but it has been covered before on PPrune.
Cheers
S2K
With regard to NZ ATPL subjects.
I don't think you can sit a higher category theory subject to fulfil the requirements for a lower license. I.e you can't sit ATPL subjects and use the credits towards a CPL issue. That was the case for a while when I was instructing many moons ago, but may have changed since then.
Had something to do with the CPL & ATPL subjects "assuming" you have acceptable knowledge of a particular topic of a lower license category and therefore didn't cover some sub-topics, to avoid doubling up of syllabus.
A new system on the drawing boards though is a time limit to be imposed on ALL theory subjects. Something along the lines of 2 years from first subject passed till issue of your PPL, 3 or 4 years from first CPL subject to issue of license, and 5 years for an ATPL.
Retrospective passes will be counted as being done on the first day the system is in place and then you 2,3,4 or 5 years to achieve your relevant license.
Not sure how advanced this system is to being introduced but it has been covered before on PPrune.
Cheers
S2K
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S2K - about a year ago I checked on crediting ATPLs to CPLs - and you can do it - but only for Human Factors. Everything else is like you say - no use for a lower licence.
As for the original question - I am not aware of any expiry date for the ATPL exams - except law of course.
Dupre.
As for the original question - I am not aware of any expiry date for the ATPL exams - except law of course.
Dupre.
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Thanks folks, yes what I needed to know was if one can have the ATPL subjects passed and remain valid until such time the required hours are attained in order to do the flight test for the subsequent licence issue.
Happy landings!
Happy landings!
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Just to clarify, the concept of a Frozen ATPL comes from Europe, where there is no ATPL flight test. And yes, with the right hours its down to the caa for a licence swap. They very thoughtfully realised you sit your 'flight test', if you like, when you do your type rating on the relevant aircraft. Hence with us, NZ, being behind the times and $$ grabbing, the Frozen ATPL doesn't exist here.
It's not just the test that leads to that shorthand term. The logging rules in the UK mean that it's possible to qualify for the ATPL hours - including command time even when employed straight from training onto a multi-crew type.
Not the case in Oz, another place where there isn't an ATPL flight test. In Oz, if you were employed onto a multi-crew type straight from training you'd *never* qualify for an ATPL unless you somehow arranged to get command time outside work. Oz logging rules prevent the accrual of the required command time in the multi crew type. As a result it would be more correct for the supposed 'fATPL' to say s/he has a Frozen CPL ie that's the level at which their licence progression is 'stuck'.
Not the case in Oz, another place where there isn't an ATPL flight test. In Oz, if you were employed onto a multi-crew type straight from training you'd *never* qualify for an ATPL unless you somehow arranged to get command time outside work. Oz logging rules prevent the accrual of the required command time in the multi crew type. As a result it would be more correct for the supposed 'fATPL' to say s/he has a Frozen CPL ie that's the level at which their licence progression is 'stuck'.
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If youve got the cash...the time..and the right stamps in your passport........head off to Europe....do your time...head back to NZ..and hey presto!..ATPL....(they just issued mine..no flight test...just hand over your money..log book assessment etc...nice shiney new plastic case.....ahhhhh)
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'Frozen ATPL' is a term sometimes used in NZ to discribe CPL + ATPL theory. The fact that you have to sit a flight test is neither here nor there, it is just part of a command check done by what ever airline you are working for - it doesn't mean any extra work on the part of the pilot, or the airline. The ATPL flight test is simply to stop people aquiring the licence without any relevant airline experience.
As others have stated, I would recommend getting your ATPL credits ASAP after doing a CPL. I wouldn't worry about waiting to do Law unless you expect to be longer than 5 years getting a command.
As others have stated, I would recommend getting your ATPL credits ASAP after doing a CPL. I wouldn't worry about waiting to do Law unless you expect to be longer than 5 years getting a command.
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If you have the required hours for the ATPL issue DO NOT sit the NZATPL subjects. Instead come to Australia and do the subjects, and presto a valid ATPL is in your hand, no flight test required, saving you thousands. Then under the TTMRA transfer to the NZ equivalent.
The NZCAA makes it almost impossible for anyone to do an Atpl flight test if you are not in an airline environment in NZ. They are just trying to make life difficult for everyone. I know I have tried and failed
The NZCAA makes it almost impossible for anyone to do an Atpl flight test if you are not in an airline environment in NZ. They are just trying to make life difficult for everyone. I know I have tried and failed
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It is the only country in the western world that has a ATPL specific flt test requirement, it is there to prevent NZ pilots from being employed overseas and it has left many broke and destitute over the years. No other country on the face of the planet has so many 2000 hour plus pilots with ATPL subjects still stuck on a basic CPL that is worthless overseas if your trying to fly on contract. And every pilot forced back into packing shelves at the supermarket or pumping gas to make ends meet puts a huge smile on the faces of those at NZ CAA.
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Yep, sad aint it
stillalbatross, you are so right. If your out there flying Saabs, Beechs, ATRs, Jetstreams, or any other 2 crew turbo prop, have the exams and the min hours, then surely the ATPL should be issued to you. After all, you have already proved and completed all the ATPL test requirements to the airline during the type rating, and during all recurrent training. The only requirement not met is paying out the CAA fee of 1200. With the examiners fee and aircraft or sim rental, the unsuspecting punter is looking at a minimum of 5000 and upwards. 
Nosey
Nosey
WOW! This explains something to me. Some months back I went for an Eagle interview (but unsuccessful!). During the interview I handed over my logbook/licences/medical etc. etc. which happened to include my NZ ATPL obtained through the TTMRA as described by 2can. I have an Aus ATPL but have only flown AC up to C404 size. The interveiwers seemed perplexed as to how I could obtain an ATPL never having flown a two crew +5700 aircraft. They asked questions about what was required for an Aus ATPL. I replied that it was just a case of having the hours (1500TT/75IF...etc) and passing the exams (with no time limit). They seemed mildly surprised by this and gave the example of having the hours required and then not flying for say 10 years, then sitting the exams and being awarded an ATPL, to which I said that this was possible. I recommend to do as 2can advises before they decide to close the 'loophole'
Not correct. There isn't a loophole as you described. You have to have a current instrument rating for the issue of the Oz ATPL. That means a flight test will have been passed within the last year.
wrt. NZ being the only country with an ATPL flight test, again, not correct. The US mandates a flight test for the issue of their ATP. Admittedly it could be in a light twin but it's still a test that must be passed, including the ground grilling before getting near the a/c.
Similarly, Ireland (pre-JAR) required a test only this had to be in a >5700 kg type.
Not sure but doesn't JAR now require the same?
wrt. NZ being the only country with an ATPL flight test, again, not correct. The US mandates a flight test for the issue of their ATP. Admittedly it could be in a light twin but it's still a test that must be passed, including the ground grilling before getting near the a/c.
Similarly, Ireland (pre-JAR) required a test only this had to be in a >5700 kg type.
Not sure but doesn't JAR now require the same?
Where is the regulation stating that your instrument rating has to be current for ATPL issue(?).CASA checklist form for ATPL states "holds or has held". Proceedure would be to convert your NZ CPL/instrument rating to Australian equivalent through the TTMRA then sit ATPL exams. As long as you completed the exams before your Australian CIR expired (based on NZ one) your rating would still be current anyway. 
Perhaps I'm in error. I'm pretty sure holding a current CIR was a prerequisite when I got mine in the early '90s.
slightly later...
You're absolutely correct. Current regulations *do* specify '...or have held.'
That does open a can of worms about proof of skill!
slightly later...
You're absolutely correct. Current regulations *do* specify '...or have held.'
That does open a can of worms about proof of skill!
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Tinstaafl, big difference between doing an Ir flight test in a light twin at $300 an hour and shelling out for min 5 hours on type for the rating plus flight test time all at around $2000 to $3000 per hour for your ATPL. If you we going for your NZ flight test for ATPL I don't think you'd get much change out of $20-25000 and that, my friend, is a system that is totally f**ked. Tell me another qualification in NZ (or anywhere in the first world) where you complete 95% of whats required to be hit with a bill like that at the end. Law?, Commerce?, med school? don't think so.
And there is no way on god's earth you are going to scrape together that kind of money instructing. And you need an ATPL issued to work overseas, not a bunch of worthless exams. So when the industry goes quiet you don't have the travel option up your sleeve. Most unfair.
Your Multi IR endorsement should be more than adequate for the requirements of an ATPL issue.
Which has got me thinking, what would it take to change it? I am sure if you explained to a few govt ministers how completely backwards and third world NZ is with this ATPL issue thing maybe they could see merit in joining western civilisation.
And there is no way on god's earth you are going to scrape together that kind of money instructing. And you need an ATPL issued to work overseas, not a bunch of worthless exams. So when the industry goes quiet you don't have the travel option up your sleeve. Most unfair.
Your Multi IR endorsement should be more than adequate for the requirements of an ATPL issue.
Which has got me thinking, what would it take to change it? I am sure if you explained to a few govt ministers how completely backwards and third world NZ is with this ATPL issue thing maybe they could see merit in joining western civilisation.
Last edited by stillalbatross; 1st Jan 2005 at 04:25.
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Which has got me thinking, what would it take to change it? I am sure if you explained to a few govt ministers how completely backwards and third world NZ is with this ATPL issue thing maybe they could see merit in joining western civilisation.
Aunty Helen and her bunch of marxist hags listen to anyone who has some knowledge on aviation? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING
Aunty Helen and her bunch of marxist hags listen to anyone who has some knowledge on aviation? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING
Last edited by MeatHunter; 1st Jan 2005 at 05:56.