Frozen NZ ATPL
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Sofa
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Expensive ATPL
Albatross where on Earth are you doing a NZ ATPL that costs $20-25000? Someone's having you on surely.
Which A/C did you hire for $3000/hr - sounds like the space shuttle? (they're going a little cheaper these days
)
I think a C421 or similar would suffice and you'd probably get one for just under $1000/hr + flight test fee ($1000?), so maybe change out of $10000?
As you say you're still not going to save that instructing but that's a darn sight cheaper than going overseas (if that's what you want) and starting over from scratch (eg UK JAA). Failing that get a command here then shoot through.
Tinstaafl will probably have the wood on this but I understand the ATPL flight test is coming for the Aussies and the "loophole" WILL be closed/tightened/insert appropriate metaphor here.
Which A/C did you hire for $3000/hr - sounds like the space shuttle? (they're going a little cheaper these days
)I think a C421 or similar would suffice and you'd probably get one for just under $1000/hr + flight test fee ($1000?), so maybe change out of $10000?
As you say you're still not going to save that instructing but that's a darn sight cheaper than going overseas (if that's what you want) and starting over from scratch (eg UK JAA). Failing that get a command here then shoot through.
Tinstaafl will probably have the wood on this but I understand the ATPL flight test is coming for the Aussies and the "loophole" WILL be closed/tightened/insert appropriate metaphor here.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From memory it was at the discretion of CAA as too what aircraft under 5700KG they deemed sufficent to test your new found abilities as a potential ATPL holder. The Chieftan on RPT was ok for a while as were a few other things but the Mojave (pressurised Chieftan) seemed to be all that they would comfortably accept these days. So we are talking rating (legal req 5 hours) plus flt test 2-3 hours plus examiner fee $1200. The a/c is not available for under $1500, in fact, since piston motors don't like assymetric work most owners of ATPL applicabe light twins won't let you use the aircraft at all.
The $20-25000 is based upon what three people I know have done it recently on. The aircraft operator stipulated miniimum 10 hours on type (you have no say in when you feel comfortable enough in the A/C) so with the 2-3 hours flt test you are up to 12 or 13 hours at least. Even at $1500 per hour for a POS like the C421 at AFS there is no way on god's earth you will get through with change from $10000.
And if you happen to be flying something EFIS up over 200 tons it is going to take a lot longer to get back into small planes and analogue instruments.
If anything Australia is leaning towards JAA so I doubt they will head back 50 years, introduce an ATPL flt test and join their cousins over the ditch. There isn't a single safety issue that the current NZ system addresses, it exists in it's current state because when it was drawn up in the late 1940's the CPL was all that was required to work overseas and CAA have never bothered to change the regs based on what the rest of the world is now doing.
What saddens me most is those who have been asked to give up holidays, or work free for six months or perform tasks on their employer so that the employer will allow them to sit the ATPL flt test using the company aircraft.
There has been some pretty horrendous stuff going on, it's demeaning and disgusting and the blame can only rest with the NZ CAA.
The $20-25000 is based upon what three people I know have done it recently on. The aircraft operator stipulated miniimum 10 hours on type (you have no say in when you feel comfortable enough in the A/C) so with the 2-3 hours flt test you are up to 12 or 13 hours at least. Even at $1500 per hour for a POS like the C421 at AFS there is no way on god's earth you will get through with change from $10000.
And if you happen to be flying something EFIS up over 200 tons it is going to take a lot longer to get back into small planes and analogue instruments.
If anything Australia is leaning towards JAA so I doubt they will head back 50 years, introduce an ATPL flt test and join their cousins over the ditch. There isn't a single safety issue that the current NZ system addresses, it exists in it's current state because when it was drawn up in the late 1940's the CPL was all that was required to work overseas and CAA have never bothered to change the regs based on what the rest of the world is now doing.
What saddens me most is those who have been asked to give up holidays, or work free for six months or perform tasks on their employer so that the employer will allow them to sit the ATPL flt test using the company aircraft.
There has been some pretty horrendous stuff going on, it's demeaning and disgusting and the blame can only rest with the NZ CAA.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: South of zero
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stillalbatross
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD with your last comments.
NZCAA (aviation)is still in the dark ages. A classic example of this is the recent change of the flight levels which most operational pilots where not aware was happening or why till very very late in the piece.
ASL is another example of the industry being screwed and why monopolies are illegal in NZ. BUT thats another story.
splat
Happy New Year to all
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD with your last comments.
NZCAA (aviation)is still in the dark ages. A classic example of this is the recent change of the flight levels which most operational pilots where not aware was happening or why till very very late in the piece.
ASL is another example of the industry being screwed and why monopolies are illegal in NZ. BUT thats another story.
splat
Happy New Year to all
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: north of the pole
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATPL flight test
The Chieftan was able to be used for the ATPL flight test because surprise surprise the CAA had one ZK-DCE. When that was swapped for a C421 then that was also approved.
Eagle and Air Nelson use to do the flight test as soon as you had the hours and exams, now use it as a lever to shaft you with and will only do one as part of the command training.
Air NZ pilots can just ask for the flight test to be rostered when they have all the requirements, flight test at no charge you just have to pay CAA issue fee's. Test can be done on the ZFT sim or sim and a route check for non ZFT sim
Eagle and Air Nelson use to do the flight test as soon as you had the hours and exams, now use it as a lever to shaft you with and will only do one as part of the command training.
Air NZ pilots can just ask for the flight test to be rostered when they have all the requirements, flight test at no charge you just have to pay CAA issue fee's. Test can be done on the ZFT sim or sim and a route check for non ZFT sim
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Posts: 494
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Small point of order, Air Nelson don't make you wait until your command, but they do require a years service and will do it as part of your 6 monthly check, no cost to you. Eagle, as I understand will only do it as part of your command training. Otherwise, the flight test sucks. It is easier than any type rating done for any of the regionals, so why not get it then? Thats right, no "examiner"
on board and of course your bank balance is not less 1200 south pacific pesos
I know of an Aussie guy, 2500 hours instructing on singles, 150 hours multi, all in a Duchess, no ATO time at all, and 50.1 hours night, single engine. Guess what? Aussie ATPL holder.........
Nosey
on board and of course your bank balance is not less 1200 south pacific pesos I know of an Aussie guy, 2500 hours instructing on singles, 150 hours multi, all in a Duchess, no ATO time at all, and 50.1 hours night, single engine. Guess what? Aussie ATPL holder.........
Nosey
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
piontyendforward, slightly incorrect. For a short while the Chieftan was ok and then CAA announced that it was a trial period and they had changed their mind (I understand that was the case with the Chieftan operating scheduled services out of Whangarei many moons ago). Anyway there was a case of someone trying to do it in the 737-200 sim at AirNZ , does the whole rating and then CAA fail to turn up for the flight test so now he's got a 737-200 rating, a CPL and a bunch of subjects, none of which he can use anywhere else. And he's out of pocket $20,000 for the type rating that he only did to get the ATPL. And all along the AirNZ Trainer is sitting through it and handing out the rating but can't give him the ATPL because the candidate's not an Air NZ employee.
Unbelievable.
But you are correct, all employers (with the full support of the CAA) have been using it as a lever, aside from Air NZ.
Unbelievable.
But you are correct, all employers (with the full support of the CAA) have been using it as a lever, aside from Air NZ.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Someday I will find a place to stop
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes
on
7 Posts
WOW! I've come back to read this thread and I am very impressed that people are waking up and now aware of just how f**ked NZ aviation is! Congrats to all!
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Well you'll all be pleased to know then that the JAA do now require a flight test for the issue of an ATPL (it was never required under the old pommie reg's).
I got away without it when I did my turboprop command upgrade a few months ago, because I was one of the very last to go through the UK licencing thing in '99 before the transition to full JAR, and hence I was upgrading a UK rather than a full JAR licence, but every pilot with a CPL/IR issued under JAR now has to do the full flight test and yes it has to be in a multi pilot certified aircraft (and that means a proper jet or big turboprop over here, you certainly can't do it in a chieftain or 421 and you can't even use a machine like a king air or a bandit, cos they're certified as single crew a/c under JAR).
If you're working for an airline then it's no problem, cos the JAA will accept a normal company IR renewal/proficiency check on your aircraft type, as adequate proof of a flight test. But if you're paying for it yourself you are going to be shelling out some serious serious coin.
Haughtney mate did you have over 500 hours operational since you got your JAR ATPL issued before you went for the conversion, or were the NZCAA not bothered about that?
I got away without it when I did my turboprop command upgrade a few months ago, because I was one of the very last to go through the UK licencing thing in '99 before the transition to full JAR, and hence I was upgrading a UK rather than a full JAR licence, but every pilot with a CPL/IR issued under JAR now has to do the full flight test and yes it has to be in a multi pilot certified aircraft (and that means a proper jet or big turboprop over here, you certainly can't do it in a chieftain or 421 and you can't even use a machine like a king air or a bandit, cos they're certified as single crew a/c under JAR).
If you're working for an airline then it's no problem, cos the JAA will accept a normal company IR renewal/proficiency check on your aircraft type, as adequate proof of a flight test. But if you're paying for it yourself you are going to be shelling out some serious serious coin.
Haughtney mate did you have over 500 hours operational since you got your JAR ATPL issued before you went for the conversion, or were the NZCAA not bothered about that?
Correction of Inaccuracy
One previous post stated must have passed an Instrument Rating flight test in the previous year to be issued with an Australian ATP(A)L.
That is not correct. CARs state, "hold or has held" a command multi-engine instrument rating. It doesn't have to be current.
As to the flight test requirement in Australia, from November 2005 or when Part 61 comes in there will be a requirement for a flight test in a multi-crew aircraft.
This goes back to the old days when an ATPL was really for the top end of the market (as per Dept Aviation etc) and you had to be working for an airline to get one. Well it's not quite to that extent, but getting close.
That is not correct. CARs state, "hold or has held" a command multi-engine instrument rating. It doesn't have to be current.
As to the flight test requirement in Australia, from November 2005 or when Part 61 comes in there will be a requirement for a flight test in a multi-crew aircraft.
This goes back to the old days when an ATPL was really for the top end of the market (as per Dept Aviation etc) and you had to be working for an airline to get one. Well it's not quite to that extent, but getting close.
