ICUS again...
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ICUS again...
According to CAR 1.105 a CPL holder can only fly a multi-pilot aircraft as a Co-pilot on RPT and CHTR ops. You can't fly as PIC on a multi-pilot aircraft during RPT/CHTR.
Now if one only has a CPL and is flying as Co-pilot on RPT/CHTR ops then if you also have a command endorsement for that aircraft and you fulfill CAR 5.40 can you log ICUS instead of PIC time when flying RPT/CHTR?
CAR 5.40 (2)(a)(i) says that the operator can permit a person to fly as ICUS only if the person holds: a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport licence, that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft. (What, as PIC, Co-pilot, ICUS or what?)
This is confusing, does this mean that you can only "fly" the aircraft if you are PIC or would you be able to log ICUS under the above conditions.
I'm confused
Cheers
Now if one only has a CPL and is flying as Co-pilot on RPT/CHTR ops then if you also have a command endorsement for that aircraft and you fulfill CAR 5.40 can you log ICUS instead of PIC time when flying RPT/CHTR?
CAR 5.40 (2)(a)(i) says that the operator can permit a person to fly as ICUS only if the person holds: a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport licence, that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft. (What, as PIC, Co-pilot, ICUS or what?)
This is confusing, does this mean that you can only "fly" the aircraft if you are PIC or would you be able to log ICUS under the above conditions.
I'm confused
Cheers
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Basically, to be PIC on an aircraft "which requires more than one pilot", you must be the holder of an ATPL.
So, as a CPL holder you cannot be in command of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot, but you can as an ATPL holder.
What would be the point of logging the ICUS to fill the 50 hrs ICUS on type requirement if you can't hold a Command?
So, as a CPL holder you cannot be in command of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot, but you can as an ATPL holder.
What would be the point of logging the ICUS to fill the 50 hrs ICUS on type requirement if you can't hold a Command?
Cost Index you are getting your beans above your franks!
Can I suggest you take a deep breath and compose a question. There are many permutations of CASA & company requirements.
Can I suggest you take a deep breath and compose a question. There are many permutations of CASA & company requirements.
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For two-crew RPT/CHTR:
To be PIC, you need ATPL and command endorsements
To be Co-Pilot you need CPL and co-pilot endorsements
To be Co-Pilot, ICUS you need CPL and command endorsements
With more than two-crew, as Co-Pilot you need the same quals as PIC, ie ATPL and command endorsements.
Simple!
To be PIC, you need ATPL and command endorsements
To be Co-Pilot you need CPL and co-pilot endorsements
To be Co-Pilot, ICUS you need CPL and command endorsements
With more than two-crew, as Co-Pilot you need the same quals as PIC, ie ATPL and command endorsements.
Simple!
Last edited by *Lancer*; 31st Oct 2004 at 05:57.
Lancer,
Changed this post as you changed yours..still can only conduct ICUS if and only if rostered to do so by the company.
Cost Index,
The number of pilots on an aircraft does not determine if it is a multi-pilot aircraft, you can have 6 pilots onboard a C206 doing a load check and its still a single pilot aircraft. To determine if an Australian aircraft is a single pilot aircraft you would need to look at the Australian Type Certificate Data Sheet, or Acceptance for the legal basis for its certification which will include the minimum crew, the Australian flight manual limitations section should also include the minimum number of crew.
Next year this will change, there will be no co-pilot endorsements or instrument ratings.
Only if rostered to do so, you are not PIC when doing ICUS, you will need the command endorsement and rating, it is still co-pilot time, def of co-pilot is any other crew member other than the PIC, which means second officer, co-pilot, ICUS etc. You cannot have a talk to the PIC and decide to do an ICUS run, its not up to the pilots.
Your operator will cover this in the ops manual if they do roster pilots for ICUS on company runs.
Changed this post as you changed yours..still can only conduct ICUS if and only if rostered to do so by the company.
Cost Index,
The number of pilots on an aircraft does not determine if it is a multi-pilot aircraft, you can have 6 pilots onboard a C206 doing a load check and its still a single pilot aircraft. To determine if an Australian aircraft is a single pilot aircraft you would need to look at the Australian Type Certificate Data Sheet, or Acceptance for the legal basis for its certification which will include the minimum crew, the Australian flight manual limitations section should also include the minimum number of crew.
Next year this will change, there will be no co-pilot endorsements or instrument ratings.
Now if one only has a CPL and is flying as Co-pilot on RPT/CHTR ops then if you also have a command endorsement for that aircraft and you fulfil CAR 5.40 can you log ICUS instead of PIC time when flying RPT/CHTR?
Your operator will cover this in the ops manual if they do roster pilots for ICUS on company runs.
Last edited by swh; 2nd Nov 2004 at 03:32.
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swh,
Not everyone on this forum may be as familiar as you are with the contents or terms of my company's manuals. I've edited the original to resolve any ambiguity you may have been concerned about.
Not everyone on this forum may be as familiar as you are with the contents or terms of my company's manuals. I've edited the original to resolve any ambiguity you may have been concerned about.
Last edited by *Lancer*; 1st Nov 2004 at 03:09.
interesting....
Unfortunalty (though it was probably the intent of the regulation) to Log ICUS it is only the operator which must approve it. I could be mistaken, but no where does the regulation state that ICUS can only be done under an RPT/CHTR environment, hence people holding commercial licenses all over are, with the operators approval, conducting PIC/ICUS flight while operating in a private opertation.
Operator Definition: operator means a person, organisation, or enterprise engaged in, or offering to engage in, an aircraft operation.
However not all ICUS is done like this. There are really good ICUS "runs" out there which provide a pilot with invaluable charter experience to meet company minimum requirements; aswell as provide valuable insight by a professional on the operation of the aircraft type. Though the pilot may not hold an instructor rating is irrevelent. CASA dont beleive so. Approval to conduct type training as an ATPL holder is very easy (though a little bit of paperwork) providing you have experience on type. How many out there can say they have learn't a great deal by flying with a more expereinced pilot, whether you are operating as Co-Pilot or ICUS or even just observing.
Unfortunalty (though it was probably the intent of the regulation) to Log ICUS it is only the operator which must approve it. I could be mistaken, but no where does the regulation state that ICUS can only be done under an RPT/CHTR environment, hence people holding commercial licenses all over are, with the operators approval, conducting PIC/ICUS flight while operating in a private opertation.
Operator Definition: operator means a person, organisation, or enterprise engaged in, or offering to engage in, an aircraft operation.
However not all ICUS is done like this. There are really good ICUS "runs" out there which provide a pilot with invaluable charter experience to meet company minimum requirements; aswell as provide valuable insight by a professional on the operation of the aircraft type. Though the pilot may not hold an instructor rating is irrevelent. CASA dont beleive so. Approval to conduct type training as an ATPL holder is very easy (though a little bit of paperwork) providing you have experience on type. How many out there can say they have learn't a great deal by flying with a more expereinced pilot, whether you are operating as Co-Pilot or ICUS or even just observing.
Bula,
You are correct, however I think the private operatons is by design, think of aeroplanes/helicopters that have been modified for specialist aerial work, war birds, enabling ICUS under all tyoes of operations is required to cover all types licence and aircraft combinations.
E.g it would be difficult to do ICUS in a Mig 15 whilst doing an RPT operation.
You are correct, however I think the private operatons is by design, think of aeroplanes/helicopters that have been modified for specialist aerial work, war birds, enabling ICUS under all tyoes of operations is required to cover all types licence and aircraft combinations.
E.g it would be difficult to do ICUS in a Mig 15 whilst doing an RPT operation.
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Briefily,
Spoke to Margaret in Brisbane CASA office and she said that so long as the operator approves it and you fulfill the requirements of CAR 5.40 then yes, you can log ICUS on RPT or CHTR with only a CPL and put it in the ICUS column, even though you are sitting in the co-pilots seat.
Whew, Cheers all
[Edited to put an S in cheers!
]
Spoke to Margaret in Brisbane CASA office and she said that so long as the operator approves it and you fulfill the requirements of CAR 5.40 then yes, you can log ICUS on RPT or CHTR with only a CPL and put it in the ICUS column, even though you are sitting in the co-pilots seat.
Whew, Cheers all
[Edited to put an S in cheers!
]
