O/T Two Australians kidnapped in Iraq: report (Breaking News)
Some of you seem to think that all student pilots are twenty something commercial wannabees. For the record, I'd love to be twenty again as I am well on the wrong side of 50.
You are welcome to question my veracity regarding matters aviational, but you are unwise to assume anything else.
If this information upsets you, well poor you.
You are welcome to question my veracity regarding matters aviational, but you are unwise to assume anything else.
If this information upsets you, well poor you.
Last edited by Woomera; 15th Sep 2004 at 22:20.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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G'day Voice,
I don't think we can label the guys who are working over there as "mercenaries." If indeed that was your intent. Sure, they are armed and operating in a hostile environment but their prime role is to provide security for individuals and organizations that do not receive protection from the operational military forces there.
If they were operating as mercenaries I think the govt would be moving swiftly to have them brought home. Remember the guys who were busted back in the 80s fighting with the Karen rebels on the Thai / Burmese border? Fedpol couldnŽt prove it at the time but those of us who knew them had no doubt who they were beneath their balaclavas and slightly muffled voices.
Settle down sunfish, far better people than you have tried to take me on. Other side of 50 eh? I would like to say that at least we now have a good explanation for your erratic posts but that would be insulting to a good majority of people here.
OK woomera, IŽll give up now. promise! It's dark in this part of the world and poor old (not quite 50) IJ needs his beauty sleep.
I don't think we can label the guys who are working over there as "mercenaries." If indeed that was your intent. Sure, they are armed and operating in a hostile environment but their prime role is to provide security for individuals and organizations that do not receive protection from the operational military forces there.
If they were operating as mercenaries I think the govt would be moving swiftly to have them brought home. Remember the guys who were busted back in the 80s fighting with the Karen rebels on the Thai / Burmese border? Fedpol couldnŽt prove it at the time but those of us who knew them had no doubt who they were beneath their balaclavas and slightly muffled voices.
Settle down sunfish, far better people than you have tried to take me on. Other side of 50 eh? I would like to say that at least we now have a good explanation for your erratic posts but that would be insulting to a good majority of people here.
OK woomera, IŽll give up now. promise! It's dark in this part of the world and poor old (not quite 50) IJ needs his beauty sleep.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 15th Sep 2004 at 22:26.
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Fedpol couldnŽt prove it at the time but those of us who knew them had no doubt who they were beneath their balaclavas and slightly muffled voices.
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Swiss
I read in a Swiss newspaper a month or so ago, that the Swiss Government in Bern had elected to employ a South African Private Security firm to protect their embassy in Iraq, rather than to employ Swiss troops to the region. Whatever you classify these security blokes as; they certainly are not playing an illegitimate role in Iraq. Or are they?
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Hiya Jock ..
nope, I wasn't referring to any particular organisation .. merely reflecting upon the place that exists for such things in todays world.
nope, I wasn't referring to any particular organisation .. merely reflecting upon the place that exists for such things in todays world.
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I know this story has pretty much died off, fortunately, but here is a related follow-up for anyone interested:
Death toll rises for ex-soldiers chasing fortune
By Ed Cropley
Baghdad
September 21, 2004
Geoff Harries didn't know his son Andrew was even in Iraq when the call came through saying the former British soldier had been killed in an ambush near the northern city of Mosul.
"It was a complete shock because I had no idea he was there," Harries told the BBC in May. "I am shattered. I want to wake up and find it's not right."
Unfortunately, his is a nightmare all too familiar to the parents of many former soldiers lured to hot spots such as Iraq by the prospect of a fast fortune in return for their military and security expertise.
With the official US body count over the past 18 months now topping 1000, and the Iraqi death toll in the unrecorded thousands, another tally is quietly creeping up.
Since April 2003, at least 151 foreign contractors, ranging from Nepalese cooks to South African bodyguards, have died in Iraq, according to Iraq Coalition Casualties, a website that tracks the body count.
Of these deaths, recorded via monitoring of international and local media, nearly a third are "security consultants" - essentially former soldiers hired to guard anything from oil installations to diplomats, politicians or foreign businessmen.
Some of the deaths hit the headlines, such as that of Fabrizio Quattrocchi, an Italian security adviser executed by his kidnappers in April this year.
Others, however, are reported only in the victim's local papers, their names and job descriptions withheld by families or employers often accused of moving in a shadowy, mercenary world.
South Africans, many from the ranks of crack, but now out-of-work, apartheid-era troops, make frequent appearances in the incident reports.
While the estimates of numbers are staggering, so too are the sums of cash involved. If you can stay alive long enough, you can get very rich. At the sharpest end of the industry - short-term protection contracts for political bigwigs or businessmen - a security guard may make as much as $US1500 ($A2150) a day, almost what a US private takes home in a month.
Unfortunately for some of the security workers such as Herman "Harry" Pretorius, a South African who worked as a bodyguard for American security company DynCorp, theirs was a one-way ticket.
The father of two was killed after being taken alive by militants who ambushed his vehicle near Mosul.
"I don't know if he will ever come home. Apparently the people who took him want money to return his body," his wife said.
- Reuters
Death toll rises for ex-soldiers chasing fortune
By Ed Cropley
Baghdad
September 21, 2004
Geoff Harries didn't know his son Andrew was even in Iraq when the call came through saying the former British soldier had been killed in an ambush near the northern city of Mosul.
"It was a complete shock because I had no idea he was there," Harries told the BBC in May. "I am shattered. I want to wake up and find it's not right."
Unfortunately, his is a nightmare all too familiar to the parents of many former soldiers lured to hot spots such as Iraq by the prospect of a fast fortune in return for their military and security expertise.
With the official US body count over the past 18 months now topping 1000, and the Iraqi death toll in the unrecorded thousands, another tally is quietly creeping up.
Since April 2003, at least 151 foreign contractors, ranging from Nepalese cooks to South African bodyguards, have died in Iraq, according to Iraq Coalition Casualties, a website that tracks the body count.
Of these deaths, recorded via monitoring of international and local media, nearly a third are "security consultants" - essentially former soldiers hired to guard anything from oil installations to diplomats, politicians or foreign businessmen.
Some of the deaths hit the headlines, such as that of Fabrizio Quattrocchi, an Italian security adviser executed by his kidnappers in April this year.
Others, however, are reported only in the victim's local papers, their names and job descriptions withheld by families or employers often accused of moving in a shadowy, mercenary world.
South Africans, many from the ranks of crack, but now out-of-work, apartheid-era troops, make frequent appearances in the incident reports.
While the estimates of numbers are staggering, so too are the sums of cash involved. If you can stay alive long enough, you can get very rich. At the sharpest end of the industry - short-term protection contracts for political bigwigs or businessmen - a security guard may make as much as $US1500 ($A2150) a day, almost what a US private takes home in a month.
Unfortunately for some of the security workers such as Herman "Harry" Pretorius, a South African who worked as a bodyguard for American security company DynCorp, theirs was a one-way ticket.
The father of two was killed after being taken alive by militants who ambushed his vehicle near Mosul.
"I don't know if he will ever come home. Apparently the people who took him want money to return his body," his wife said.
- Reuters
I rest my case. Itchybum has made it for me.
Don't let any of your friends go to Iraq.
It is probably illegal to act as a" guard " in Iraq under Australian Law.
I hade a mate years ago who was idly asked a question in a London Pub "ever been in Cadets? Want to earn some easy money?"
He ended up in the Congo and lasted a week before seeing that the animals had eaten his dead mates Liver - he went out on a Red Cross Plane that day without ever collecting his pay.
Don't let any of your friends go to Iraq.
It is probably illegal to act as a" guard " in Iraq under Australian Law.
I hade a mate years ago who was idly asked a question in a London Pub "ever been in Cadets? Want to earn some easy money?"
He ended up in the Congo and lasted a week before seeing that the animals had eaten his dead mates Liver - he went out on a Red Cross Plane that day without ever collecting his pay.
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I'll say it again...
SUNFISH,
You clearly don't know what you're talking about in regards to the legalities of working in Iraq. (If for no other reason than you'd have told us by now how many degrees in international law that you have).
To the best of my knowledge, it is NOT illegal for Australians to work as "security consultants" in IRAQ. This from sources who'd only be too happy to say otherwise. (And some people I know would have had difficulties on their return to Australia).
I've several friends and aquaintances who have worked over there in various capacities between 1992 and the present day. All are people I'd consider "salt of the earth" and not "scum of the earth".
Why not stick to posting what you know about? Like your hobby farm, or yacht, or your flying lessons?
DIVOSH!
You clearly don't know what you're talking about in regards to the legalities of working in Iraq. (If for no other reason than you'd have told us by now how many degrees in international law that you have).
To the best of my knowledge, it is NOT illegal for Australians to work as "security consultants" in IRAQ. This from sources who'd only be too happy to say otherwise. (And some people I know would have had difficulties on their return to Australia).
I've several friends and aquaintances who have worked over there in various capacities between 1992 and the present day. All are people I'd consider "salt of the earth" and not "scum of the earth".
Why not stick to posting what you know about? Like your hobby farm, or yacht, or your flying lessons?
DIVOSH!
Umm sorry guys, it is illegal on several levels. 1. It is illegal to participate in foriegn armies. 2. It is illegal to participate in foriiegn wars. 3. The "security" forces in Iraq are not covered by legal safeguards in that the Government of Iraq is not a legally constituted body. 4. Your military training is subject to the official secrets act - you do not get to export your training.
In other words mate, if you are a security guard in Iraq and stitch up a guy and his (say) kids, what is your legal right to do so? Where did that right come from? The Australian Government takes a very dim view of such behaviour.
To put it another way, the legal doctrine of estopple nails you pretty well. If you are not allowed to mow down Serbs or Bosnians, then the same applies in Iraq.
The only international law I know on this point was taught to me for first appointment as a lieutenant and it was made pretty clear that I was not allowed to export my training.
In other words mate, if you are a security guard in Iraq and stitch up a guy and his (say) kids, what is your legal right to do so? Where did that right come from? The Australian Government takes a very dim view of such behaviour.
To put it another way, the legal doctrine of estopple nails you pretty well. If you are not allowed to mow down Serbs or Bosnians, then the same applies in Iraq.
The only international law I know on this point was taught to me for first appointment as a lieutenant and it was made pretty clear that I was not allowed to export my training.
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The thread title is:
O/T Two Australians kidnapped in Iraq: report (Breaking News)
Either stick to it or the thread gets locked.
You want to discuss legal issues, start a new thread!!!
Woomera
O/T Two Australians kidnapped in Iraq: report (Breaking News)
Either stick to it or the thread gets locked.
You want to discuss legal issues, start a new thread!!!
Woomera
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OK woomera, IŽll give up now. promise! It's dark in this part of the world and poor old (not quite 50) IJ needs his beauty sleep.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Wiz,
BITE ME!
Dunno what our budding GFPT is waffling on about now but it is truly amazing what the ignore button can do for one's karma.
OK so I took a quick peek. hmm limited military experience coupled with just enough legal speak to be a nuisance. Says it all really.
Looks like the topic of the report was incorrect anyway.
BITE ME!
Dunno what our budding GFPT is waffling on about now but it is truly amazing what the ignore button can do for one's karma.
OK so I took a quick peek. hmm limited military experience coupled with just enough legal speak to be a nuisance. Says it all really.
Looks like the topic of the report was incorrect anyway.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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definately has the potential for the same banter I have with ............... well you know who I'm talking about.
Anyone have anymore news on the supposed auzzies?.
Can't imagine them mucking around with Auzzies.......we wouldn't be getting kidnapped without lots of bullets flying and then them having to worry about keeping us without getting a severe ass whooping from the family of the kidnapee.
I know its off topic, and probably illegal, but why don't they get put on notice that every time they take the head off an innocent person, that one of their religious clerics will get a small (about 5.56x56) hole in his forhead?.
not a nice thing, but might detere em a bit.
If it was one of my mob that got beheaded, I would make it my lifes mission to go over there and return the favour to as many of the buggers as I could.
Anyone have anymore news on the supposed auzzies?.
Can't imagine them mucking around with Auzzies.......we wouldn't be getting kidnapped without lots of bullets flying and then them having to worry about keeping us without getting a severe ass whooping from the family of the kidnapee.
I know its off topic, and probably illegal, but why don't they get put on notice that every time they take the head off an innocent person, that one of their religious clerics will get a small (about 5.56x56) hole in his forhead?.
not a nice thing, but might detere em a bit.
If it was one of my mob that got beheaded, I would make it my lifes mission to go over there and return the favour to as many of the buggers as I could.
