Plane debris found off Sunshine Coast
Actually Sunfish has spent the weekend not looking at the internet.
I was surprised at the venting thats going on here over a bit of mere innocent speculation by little old me.
I have absolutely no idea what caused the GoldCoast crash, however "Pilot Error" is a very real concept for me at the moment and I respectfully but regretfully need to draw some of your attention to the fact that it appears to be the major cause of accidents.
I guess eventually we will see a report, but thats not going to stop me or anyone else from speculating over everything from the war on Iraq, to who is going to win the football or what caused certain air crashes.
BTW, I am acutely conscious about what I don't know about driving an aircraft even though I spent quite a few years in the aerospace business on both the civil and defence side, and thought that would help.
Up to now, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the friendliness and helpfulness of pilots and instructors, even on the internet. However I guess I should have expected that there would have to be a few arseholes around.
BTW, any of you fly out of Moorrabbin? Obviously not, otherwise you would have remembered last Saturday's weather. I was one of four victims in the circuit doing crosswind landings with a 12 to 20 knot component according to ATIS. My score: one out of five attempts, two go arounds, and two saves by my instructor.
If I make anyone's blood boil, then poor you.
I was surprised at the venting thats going on here over a bit of mere innocent speculation by little old me.
I have absolutely no idea what caused the GoldCoast crash, however "Pilot Error" is a very real concept for me at the moment and I respectfully but regretfully need to draw some of your attention to the fact that it appears to be the major cause of accidents.
I guess eventually we will see a report, but thats not going to stop me or anyone else from speculating over everything from the war on Iraq, to who is going to win the football or what caused certain air crashes.
BTW, I am acutely conscious about what I don't know about driving an aircraft even though I spent quite a few years in the aerospace business on both the civil and defence side, and thought that would help.
Up to now, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the friendliness and helpfulness of pilots and instructors, even on the internet. However I guess I should have expected that there would have to be a few arseholes around.
BTW, any of you fly out of Moorrabbin? Obviously not, otherwise you would have remembered last Saturday's weather. I was one of four victims in the circuit doing crosswind landings with a 12 to 20 knot component according to ATIS. My score: one out of five attempts, two go arounds, and two saves by my instructor.
If I make anyone's blood boil, then poor you.
Last edited by Sunfish; 22nd Aug 2004 at 22:42.
Sunfish,
I think what you might need to look at is 'human factors' rather than 'pilot error'. I think you might find peoples blood boil when you speculate on the cause of an accident which others may have a personal interest, especially if you have no idea of the facts of the case. It is very very bad form.
There by the grace of god go I.
Bevan..
I have absolutely no idea what caused the GoldCoast crash, however "Pilot Error" is a very real concept for me at the moment and I respectfully but regretfully need to draw some of your attention to the fact that it appears to be the major cause of accidents.
There by the grace of god go I.
Bevan..
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Sunfish
Back in the days when this Woomera joined the aviation industry, when you were probably no more than a thought in your father’s mind, unqualified “Pilot Error” or “engine failure” was the cause of probably 99% of all aircraft accidents.
In this enlightened technological era, far more competent investigators, with far more sophisticated investigative systems and tools, go well beyond the realms of mere, unqualified “Pilot Error” or “engine failure”. Even where "pilot error" may be the primary cause, investigators attempt to determine cause or reason for that "pilot error".
Why you ask? Simply because the investigators need to attempt to identify the real cause of aircraft accidents to identify systemic or component failure etc., in order to make aviation far safer for all of us. Try reading a few accident reports at the ATSB site to appreciate the long, exhaustive and arduous process adopted by qualified and competent investigators.
I could think of dozens, maybe hundreds of hypothetical reasons for any accident, including the accident in question. But, like you, I am not at the scene, have no information upon which to make a decision, am not a trained and competent investigator and there’s a 99% chance I would be totally incorrect, as you probably were with your suggestion.
There are three very interesting comments in the media which intrigue me and I’m sure will be carefully investigated:
Very compelling comments even if made by unqualified witnesses. I am not drawing any conclusions but will be following the accident reports with great interest.
Then there’s the question of family and friends. They too are entitled to competent advice and reason for the accident to put closure to their grief. Unqualified and probably totally incorrect conclusions would not help their grief.
Some of us, including this Woomera, have “been there” where accident are concerned. This is a Professional pilot’s forum – lets try to maintain some professionalism and ethics.
Woomera
Back in the days when this Woomera joined the aviation industry, when you were probably no more than a thought in your father’s mind, unqualified “Pilot Error” or “engine failure” was the cause of probably 99% of all aircraft accidents.
In this enlightened technological era, far more competent investigators, with far more sophisticated investigative systems and tools, go well beyond the realms of mere, unqualified “Pilot Error” or “engine failure”. Even where "pilot error" may be the primary cause, investigators attempt to determine cause or reason for that "pilot error".
Why you ask? Simply because the investigators need to attempt to identify the real cause of aircraft accidents to identify systemic or component failure etc., in order to make aviation far safer for all of us. Try reading a few accident reports at the ATSB site to appreciate the long, exhaustive and arduous process adopted by qualified and competent investigators.
I could think of dozens, maybe hundreds of hypothetical reasons for any accident, including the accident in question. But, like you, I am not at the scene, have no information upon which to make a decision, am not a trained and competent investigator and there’s a 99% chance I would be totally incorrect, as you probably were with your suggestion.
There are three very interesting comments in the media which intrigue me and I’m sure will be carefully investigated:
“….was an experienced pilot who had been flying for almost two decades.”
"He'd just put a brand new engine into this plane after the last one blew up going to Perth."
"Glen said his mother had reported hearing a different sounding engine to normal in the minutes before the crash, while a neighbour claimed to have heard a spluttering sound.”
"He'd just put a brand new engine into this plane after the last one blew up going to Perth."
"Glen said his mother had reported hearing a different sounding engine to normal in the minutes before the crash, while a neighbour claimed to have heard a spluttering sound.”
Then there’s the question of family and friends. They too are entitled to competent advice and reason for the accident to put closure to their grief. Unqualified and probably totally incorrect conclusions would not help their grief.
Some of us, including this Woomera, have “been there” where accident are concerned. This is a Professional pilot’s forum – lets try to maintain some professionalism and ethics.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 23rd Aug 2004 at 05:46.
Well said Woomera.
The term "Pilot Error" is trying to be erased by modern human factors training, and yet it still survives quite well. You dont hear of "Doctor Error" when they leave an instrument in your stomach, "Engineer Error" when the faulty design caused the bridge to collapse, or even "Pilot Error" when the harbour pilot hits the marine marker. They get called "human error". By referring to our form of human error as pilot error, we are inferring that other professionals wouldn't have made the mistake, or that it is some kind of special affliction that only pilots will suffer.
As professional pilots, lets make a concerted effort to NEVER refer to "pilot" error.
The term "Pilot Error" is trying to be erased by modern human factors training, and yet it still survives quite well. You dont hear of "Doctor Error" when they leave an instrument in your stomach, "Engineer Error" when the faulty design caused the bridge to collapse, or even "Pilot Error" when the harbour pilot hits the marine marker. They get called "human error". By referring to our form of human error as pilot error, we are inferring that other professionals wouldn't have made the mistake, or that it is some kind of special affliction that only pilots will suffer.
As professional pilots, lets make a concerted effort to NEVER refer to "pilot" error.
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Come on guys, lets call a spade a spade here. If a pilot makes a serious mistake and shuts down the wrong engine by mistake or crashes a perfectly serviceable aircraft by making poor judgement, that is pilot error. The pilot made a mistake. Calling it "humans factors" because he may have had a fight with his girlfriend the day before does nothing to change the facts. Lets not see political correctness go beserk here just because a psychologist has coined the term Human Factors to account for situations of fatigue or stress and how they manifest themselves in the cockpit. You will never remove the phrase "Pilot Error" from the media or mainstream life. We are stuck with it and it does have a valid place in any accident investigation.
Human factors relates more to the background of events and behaviour psychology such as "push-on-itis" and pilots flying into hills because they were fell asleep after twenty hours at the controls. The two are linked and go hand in hand. Pilot Error is here to stay because( despite what some of you think) we are only human and make mistakes in our work.
Victor
You have a lot to learn about aviation and professional aircraft accident investigation. Take for example, your comment "....and shuts down the wrong engine by mistake..." my first question is: WHY
In less than a minute I can think of many possible reasons:
Fatigue; confusion (medication, drugs, hypoxia, CO or CO2?); systemic training failure; CAR 215 or CAR 217 deficiency; currency; mechanical failure ... and on, and on, and on........
Professional investigators in this day and age seek real answers, not hide behind a generic and inconclusive "pilot error" results.
Woomera
Human factors relates more to the background of events and behaviour psychology such as "push-on-itis" and pilots flying into hills because they were fell asleep after twenty hours at the controls. The two are linked and go hand in hand. Pilot Error is here to stay because( despite what some of you think) we are only human and make mistakes in our work.
Victor
You have a lot to learn about aviation and professional aircraft accident investigation. Take for example, your comment "....and shuts down the wrong engine by mistake..." my first question is: WHY
In less than a minute I can think of many possible reasons:
Fatigue; confusion (medication, drugs, hypoxia, CO or CO2?); systemic training failure; CAR 215 or CAR 217 deficiency; currency; mechanical failure ... and on, and on, and on........
Professional investigators in this day and age seek real answers, not hide behind a generic and inconclusive "pilot error" results.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 23rd Aug 2004 at 06:18.
Victor,
I was not professing "human factors", I was saying we should refer to it as "human error" like all other professions. "Pilot Error" has NO valid place in modern aviation investigations & it will remain in the media as long as we keep the term alive.
Pilot error is human error. Lets call it that.
I was not professing "human factors", I was saying we should refer to it as "human error" like all other professions. "Pilot Error" has NO valid place in modern aviation investigations & it will remain in the media as long as we keep the term alive.
Pilot error is human error. Lets call it that.
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Thanks for the spray woomera. Maybe in your haste to think of twenty reasons why a pilot would might shut down the wrong engine you actually missed the point? Blame human factors for that, maybe you were tired or stressed.
What I am saying is that human factors and pilot error are seperate elements but they are still linked. You rattle off several factors CONTRIBUTING to the mistake that causes the crash. Regardless of how tired or if he thinks his wife is screwing about, he still made a mistake by doing something that caused a crash.
What if he was happy, trained, medically fit, proficient, not stressed, at ease with his sexuality, loved his kids who loved him back, happy with his religious faith. At a critical moment, he reacts but reads a guage wrong and shuts down the wrong engine.
What then, in your world devoid of pilot error would you call that?
Victor
I'm not trying to "spray" you, merely giving you an insight into modern accident investigative techniques.
For example: In the instance you quote - of a competent and settled pilot miss identifying a failed engine - I would have to ask an even bigger WHY?
Whilst there may be many reasons - including unexplained "pilot error" - what if the cause was mental confusion caused by carbon monoxide or fumes from a heater which had a design defect?
And of course, an investigation into why the engine failed........!
Two fatal accidents come to mind:
Many years ago a King Air broke up in flight. Public suggestion was passengers fighting. Final report - the cabin pressure dump switch had been accidentally activated at flight levels. This lead to "switch guards" being installed on all King Airs.
A few years ago an Islander stalled and crashed on landing. CASA blamed defective maintenance and grounded the operator. Final report: aircraft stalled in an emergency manouver due to a vehicle driving onto the airstrip.
And a milestone in accident investigation, the investigation into fatigue failure in the Comet I airliner, fifty years ago.
I don't subscribe to "pilot error" as the cause of an accident. There has to be a reason for that "pilot error" and hopefully, lessons we can all learn.
Woomera
What I am saying is that human factors and pilot error are seperate elements but they are still linked. You rattle off several factors CONTRIBUTING to the mistake that causes the crash. Regardless of how tired or if he thinks his wife is screwing about, he still made a mistake by doing something that caused a crash.
What if he was happy, trained, medically fit, proficient, not stressed, at ease with his sexuality, loved his kids who loved him back, happy with his religious faith. At a critical moment, he reacts but reads a guage wrong and shuts down the wrong engine.
What then, in your world devoid of pilot error would you call that?
Victor
I'm not trying to "spray" you, merely giving you an insight into modern accident investigative techniques.
For example: In the instance you quote - of a competent and settled pilot miss identifying a failed engine - I would have to ask an even bigger WHY?
Whilst there may be many reasons - including unexplained "pilot error" - what if the cause was mental confusion caused by carbon monoxide or fumes from a heater which had a design defect?
And of course, an investigation into why the engine failed........!
Two fatal accidents come to mind:
Many years ago a King Air broke up in flight. Public suggestion was passengers fighting. Final report - the cabin pressure dump switch had been accidentally activated at flight levels. This lead to "switch guards" being installed on all King Airs.
A few years ago an Islander stalled and crashed on landing. CASA blamed defective maintenance and grounded the operator. Final report: aircraft stalled in an emergency manouver due to a vehicle driving onto the airstrip.
And a milestone in accident investigation, the investigation into fatigue failure in the Comet I airliner, fifty years ago.
I don't subscribe to "pilot error" as the cause of an accident. There has to be a reason for that "pilot error" and hopefully, lessons we can all learn.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 23rd Aug 2004 at 23:20.
Victor Two,
Your somewhat simplistic approach to the idea of human error is not uncommon. Not sure if you have read this book but it well worth your while - Human Factors in Flight, Frank H. Hawkins
It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to enter the industry, student pilot and above.
Cheers,
TL
Your somewhat simplistic approach to the idea of human error is not uncommon. Not sure if you have read this book but it well worth your while - Human Factors in Flight, Frank H. Hawkins
It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to enter the industry, student pilot and above.
Cheers,
TL
Can we all calm down and take a chill pill? I'm sorry I gave the opportunity to vent. Lets wait for the ATSB report.
Its human factors. Even this muggins now knows that it is an issue after making an impulsive decision to "help" my instructor after she took over. I damn near killed both of us.
Its human factors. Even this muggins now knows that it is an issue after making an impulsive decision to "help" my instructor after she took over. I damn near killed both of us.
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Guys, I'm not the slightest heated or wound up. I am just confused as to what I interpret as a new trend in human behaviour that I seemed to miss out on until now. The impression I get is that, today, there is no such thing as pilot error anymore. That any action, regardless of stupidity or motivation can be explained away as a human factor. I am aware of accident event chains (or the theory of them anyway) and how all the holes have to line up to allow the safety measures to be breached and so on. This seems to suggest that noone actually makes mistakes anymore, what is happening is systematic breakdowns in saftey measures for various reasons.
Therefore, is this new phenomenom contained only to aircraft or do taxi drivers who crash and kill people by misjudging a corner come under the same category. What about policemen who make a mistake and under situations of stress, shoot the wrong guy. Is that covered by the same theory? People make dumb mistakes everyday and that is a fact.
Example: A fit happy pilot with 20/20 eyesight is flying a light aircraft low to look at his favourite camping spot and clips charted but unseen power lines and crashes. Describe to me how that is anything other than a error of judgement which could have been avoided.
If that is a simplistic view of saftey, I'll take it every day. Book or no book.
Good chatting guys
Vic.
Vic
Have a quick read here.
Woomera
Therefore, is this new phenomenom contained only to aircraft or do taxi drivers who crash and kill people by misjudging a corner come under the same category. What about policemen who make a mistake and under situations of stress, shoot the wrong guy. Is that covered by the same theory? People make dumb mistakes everyday and that is a fact.
Example: A fit happy pilot with 20/20 eyesight is flying a light aircraft low to look at his favourite camping spot and clips charted but unseen power lines and crashes. Describe to me how that is anything other than a error of judgement which could have been avoided.
If that is a simplistic view of saftey, I'll take it every day. Book or no book.
Good chatting guys
Vic.
Vic
Have a quick read here.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 23rd Aug 2004 at 23:30.
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Sunfish:
I don't understand? What is your point here?
BTW, any of you fly out of Moorrabbin? Obviously not, otherwise you would have remembered last Saturday's weather. I was one of four victims in the circuit doing crosswind landings with a 12 to 20 knot component according to ATIS. My score: one out of five attempts, two go arounds, and two saves by my instructor.
Sorry Ibex, I was making a point to someoen who was querying something I said about crosswind landings. It seems that person has disappeared.
Might get some more practice tomorrow as it looks like a 20 -30 knot day.
Going out at ten today to practice forced landings.
Might get some more practice tomorrow as it looks like a 20 -30 knot day.
Going out at ten today to practice forced landings.
victor, woomera, sunfish, etc
We are talking at slightly crossed purposes here.
Not one of us is arguing that humans (including pilots) make mistakes. Not one of us is arguing that there are factors involved in those mistakes.
Human factors is the term applied to those factors.
Human error is the term applied to those mistakes.
Pilot error has not suddenly disappeared, rather it has been renamed into a more appropriate label: Human Error. This is like every other profession. And if we, the professional pilots, stick to using the correct terminology of human error, then perhaps the degrading throwaway of pilot error will recede, and the public may envisage a less sensational (and therefore more understandable) cause for some of these accidents: human error. Just like doctors, lawyers, engineers, authors, etc, etc....
We are talking at slightly crossed purposes here.
Not one of us is arguing that humans (including pilots) make mistakes. Not one of us is arguing that there are factors involved in those mistakes.
Human factors is the term applied to those factors.
Human error is the term applied to those mistakes.
Pilot error has not suddenly disappeared, rather it has been renamed into a more appropriate label: Human Error. This is like every other profession. And if we, the professional pilots, stick to using the correct terminology of human error, then perhaps the degrading throwaway of pilot error will recede, and the public may envisage a less sensational (and therefore more understandable) cause for some of these accidents: human error. Just like doctors, lawyers, engineers, authors, etc, etc....
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Without wanting to harp on about this minor issue too much. Over the last 24 hours I have heard the term " Pilot Error" used at least three times by different news broadcasters in relation to possible reasons for the double aircraft crashes in Russia.
"Pilot Error is unlikely, Pilot Error is a possibility and investigators are considering if pilot error played a part......"
That particular term is not going to go away in our lifetimes guys. Sorry about that.
cheers
Vic
"Pilot Error is unlikely, Pilot Error is a possibility and investigators are considering if pilot error played a part......"
That particular term is not going to go away in our lifetimes guys. Sorry about that.
cheers
Vic
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Sunfish
Ibex makes a good point.
This is not the thread to post your training progress updates.
You're showing a complete lack of respect for the pilots family & friends.
Ibex makes a good point.
This is not the thread to post your training progress updates.
You're showing a complete lack of respect for the pilots family & friends.
Last edited by dude65; 26th Aug 2004 at 03:12.
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While I can understand there will be ongoing speculation as to the loss of the aircraft, I find it repugnant in the way it has been handled by some respondents to this topic. I believe I can speak for all of those who today attended Barry's farewell held in a hangar at YBMC.
Those of us who knew Barry considered he was a careful conservative pilot who maintained his skill level with a recurrent Mooney Pilot Proficiency Program, so you should consider his loss demonstrates that none of us are immune to a similar fate.
If you need to show how clever you are (which probably means you're not) please start another topic which will generalise Human Factors without speculating about the loss of a good man who will be sadly missed by all.
Those of us who knew Barry considered he was a careful conservative pilot who maintained his skill level with a recurrent Mooney Pilot Proficiency Program, so you should consider his loss demonstrates that none of us are immune to a similar fate.
If you need to show how clever you are (which probably means you're not) please start another topic which will generalise Human Factors without speculating about the loss of a good man who will be sadly missed by all.
Sunfish,
I'll make a suggestion sport.
Cut and paste this entire thread, print it and show it to an adult with your posts highlighted. Then ask them ; Do you think I've made a plonker of myself? I bet even if they don't have an aviation background, they will answer in the affirmative.
I'll make a suggestion sport.
Cut and paste this entire thread, print it and show it to an adult with your posts highlighted. Then ask them ; Do you think I've made a plonker of myself? I bet even if they don't have an aviation background, they will answer in the affirmative.