ALL NAC pilots threatened with sack!
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Guys, I am not one to be a wet blanket but............ there is a confidentiallity agreement when you join a company that matters which concern the company stay in the company!!!!!!!!!!!! Fair enough there may be problems in a company ,,,,,, but all an outsider can do is lend support to the ones involved. If the pilots and the company cannot resolve the issues, then a mediator such as the awa are required to step in and mediate between both parties. They are however, like woomera has stated, not mind readers, and can only act when a staff member or operater request that it be so. In saying this I hope that it would never get to this stage. If the employer is respectable and has integrity then he/she should listen to their employees and adjust conditions to suit all concerned. It may not be easy, but an employee should not be punished/ dismissed for requesting what they may/maynot be entitled to
eyp
P.S.
Woomera
I do know that the guys at NAC are not paid the award and in fact that HA charges his aircraft out at a rate that would allow him to pay award wages. Being another operator in the top end, we do pay above the award for all pilots, and operate our aircraft at a considerably less hourly rate!
eyp
P.S.
Woomera
I do know that the guys at NAC are not paid the award and in fact that HA charges his aircraft out at a rate that would allow him to pay award wages. Being another operator in the top end, we do pay above the award for all pilots, and operate our aircraft at a considerably less hourly rate!
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ITCZ,
Some good points - however I think you may have misread my post. The "spew"
indicates I am not very happy with the situation either.
An operator that is not paying pilots their due worth is unlikely to provide a glowing reference if said pilot has a go at them. In fact, an operator holding a grudge is more likely to say "nah that Dizzy bloke is bloody dangerous, I wouldn't employ him blah blah blah".
Now one could argue that a reference isn't everything. One could also argue that it is defamation. If you are competing with 3 blokes that have similar experience levels and qualifications, but you came up short on the reference check - by a cranky old bastard holding a grudge - who do you think they would employ? Again, I do not agree with this but it is, IMO, reality.
Blown Seal,
My spine is just fine thanks mate. If it were me, I would stand up and blow the consequences. It aint happening to me. I am simply pointing out the reality or, more likely, the perception of reality by the average GA pilot trying to get enough hours to move on.
Dr. Rudi,
P!ss weak indeed.
G'day,
DA
Some good points - however I think you may have misread my post. The "spew"
indicates I am not very happy with the situation either.An operator that is not paying pilots their due worth is unlikely to provide a glowing reference if said pilot has a go at them. In fact, an operator holding a grudge is more likely to say "nah that Dizzy bloke is bloody dangerous, I wouldn't employ him blah blah blah".
Now one could argue that a reference isn't everything. One could also argue that it is defamation. If you are competing with 3 blokes that have similar experience levels and qualifications, but you came up short on the reference check - by a cranky old bastard holding a grudge - who do you think they would employ? Again, I do not agree with this but it is, IMO, reality.
Blown Seal,
My spine is just fine thanks mate. If it were me, I would stand up and blow the consequences. It aint happening to me. I am simply pointing out the reality or, more likely, the perception of reality by the average GA pilot trying to get enough hours to move on.
Dr. Rudi,
P!ss weak indeed.
G'day,
DA
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Again, I do not agree with this but it is, IMO, reality.
Now, the best way to test a hypothesis like yours, is to state who, where and when.
Diz, ask yourself, how many pilots do you personally know that have been shafted this way. Not second hand, not via the rumour mill, not someone pushing the blame for their own fark ups onto someone else....
How many?
Because my read on 'reality' is the opposite.
In fact, I think those that had belief in themselves and dealt with the garbage, had the necessary ingredients to hang in there and be still standing when the hiring started.
Since posting my previous message this morning, I got an email from a mate who told me he just got a permanent ride in an A340.
Now this guy was famous for his "we're only boggies' Arnhemland anthem, his buxom girlfriends, his maverick sense of humour, his steely determination to make it, and his uncompromising integrity and loyalty to his friends. All of these things made him a complete pain in the r's for ALL his employers!
According to your 'reality,' he should have been binned in 1996. But his irascible humour and hairy backside is destined for an A340.
Do your math again.
Sorry for the preaching folks, but it makes me angry to see this defeatist bollocks being put up as 'reality.'
This is a job for grownups. If you can't deal with a self-serving-self-promoting-windbag of a boss when you hold the trump card, legally speaking, then god help you when the going gets really tough.
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Well well
Another load of self serving rubbish. An annonymous forum, representing the esteemed spineless and nameless, the failed and maybe could have beens.
If all you self serving windbags had a backbone, you would be out there doing it for yourselves. How many pilots has HA got now? How many aircraft has he got? How many opportunities has he created for countless pilots?
As with most things it will be fuelled by those who have left the employ, gotten what they want, then not being there anymore started slanging off at HA! Pretty gutsy move.
As for the pilots in the employ at NAC..It's up to you either put up with your "sub-standard" conditions (compared to what?) or move. Or simply read this rubbish posted by the "dark princes" out there.
One simple fact remains. HA started with nothing and has built something. Most of the negative posts fail to notice that, without him another 40 or so pilots would be confined to posting negative crap in here.
How about the heroes out there, go and get their own funding, AOC, fleet CP approvals, maintenace approvals or contractors, customer base and accounts department and do it your FREAKING self..no it's a tad easier knocking somebody who has...
For the record, this is not HA. I have worked for him, enjoyed my time and enjoy his friendship, and with his blessing and active assistance moved on to something else!
If all you self serving windbags had a backbone, you would be out there doing it for yourselves. How many pilots has HA got now? How many aircraft has he got? How many opportunities has he created for countless pilots?
As with most things it will be fuelled by those who have left the employ, gotten what they want, then not being there anymore started slanging off at HA! Pretty gutsy move.
As for the pilots in the employ at NAC..It's up to you either put up with your "sub-standard" conditions (compared to what?) or move. Or simply read this rubbish posted by the "dark princes" out there.
One simple fact remains. HA started with nothing and has built something. Most of the negative posts fail to notice that, without him another 40 or so pilots would be confined to posting negative crap in here.
How about the heroes out there, go and get their own funding, AOC, fleet CP approvals, maintenace approvals or contractors, customer base and accounts department and do it your FREAKING self..no it's a tad easier knocking somebody who has...
For the record, this is not HA. I have worked for him, enjoyed my time and enjoy his friendship, and with his blessing and active assistance moved on to something else!
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about time HA replied. Yes we know it is you. agreed you have done well but how your doing it is immoral and unethical. All we are asking is for you to respect youf pilots and other operator on the field and fall in line under the award. That way you may make friends in the aviation industry in Darwin. Pretty simple isn't it.
D Rate
No, wrong. They are 2 options, another is to actually force NAC to pay.
So what?! Does this make him (you?) Father Christmas and therefore above the law? The Soviet Union created fantastic work opportunities for people to work for next to nothing, and as a result achieved a lot in their heyday.
In a similar fashion, NAC is using bully boy scare tactics to stop an uprising.
The difference now is that the law is on the side of the pilots, and requires an award to be paid.
NAC pilots,
stick with it.
As for the pilots in the employ at NAC..It's up to you either put up with your "sub-standard" conditions (compared to what?) or move.
How many opportunities has he created for countless pilots?
In a similar fashion, NAC is using bully boy scare tactics to stop an uprising.
The difference now is that the law is on the side of the pilots, and requires an award to be paid.
NAC pilots,
stick with it.
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Oh for crying out loud
No this isn't Stefan,
But i certainly know who many of em are, I am sure there are a couple of failed wannabes out there stirring it from the outside.
I would have thought astute observers would have noted that this is the typical wind up.
How to ensure fact.
1. An anonymous forum
2. open to anybody
3.On the internet
It is after all a rumour network
All the rest sit on your high horse, go get the law books out study up, make sure you dont get ripped off, take it to court etc. Or get get busy doing your preparation for your AOC interview, CP pilot approval, your financial viability statement and go and do it yourself..It makes you sick, we reckon we are progressing.
And for the record growler, whoever you are; the Soviet Union model collapsed, leaving the countless "workers" unemployed. You see my dear friend, there are a myriad of economic policies from which to draw your examples. I'm sure you are your comrades will support the the poor minions who can vote with their feet afterall. This isnt Soviet Russia my dear fellow.
Before the other winners leap to the defence of the downtrodden. I have been ripped off, I have been terminated, have had trouble paying the bills, all whilst trying to pursue a flying career, it was HA that helped out.
Here comes the mob again, all fired up and ready to lynch me..Shame they are all anonymous, as all tough guys are!
And if you want to think about it, HA could probably liquidiate the whole operation, and walk away with some return for his considerable personal investment that has launched the career of countless pilots..
And again no it isn't HA. Guess away lil fellas, go on.
p.s You are kidding aren't you T3000..friends in aviation?HA got your career going didn't he? Pilots friends with pilots....that's a good one as long as your mate ain't employed over the top, takes your twin job, gets paid more, does all the good flights, gets an airline interview before you do, gets an airline job before...Heard it all before but then again some people get their news from CNN!"where we do the thinking for you"
From memory my corspe still had life in it and the lil boys were ready to divide up the twin flying!
What are we gunna do in this country if there is a war?(ie:something to really worry about)
We are so gone........
But i certainly know who many of em are, I am sure there are a couple of failed wannabes out there stirring it from the outside.
I would have thought astute observers would have noted that this is the typical wind up.
How to ensure fact.
1. An anonymous forum
2. open to anybody
3.On the internet
It is after all a rumour network
All the rest sit on your high horse, go get the law books out study up, make sure you dont get ripped off, take it to court etc. Or get get busy doing your preparation for your AOC interview, CP pilot approval, your financial viability statement and go and do it yourself..It makes you sick, we reckon we are progressing.
And for the record growler, whoever you are; the Soviet Union model collapsed, leaving the countless "workers" unemployed. You see my dear friend, there are a myriad of economic policies from which to draw your examples. I'm sure you are your comrades will support the the poor minions who can vote with their feet afterall. This isnt Soviet Russia my dear fellow.
Before the other winners leap to the defence of the downtrodden. I have been ripped off, I have been terminated, have had trouble paying the bills, all whilst trying to pursue a flying career, it was HA that helped out.
Here comes the mob again, all fired up and ready to lynch me..Shame they are all anonymous, as all tough guys are!
And if you want to think about it, HA could probably liquidiate the whole operation, and walk away with some return for his considerable personal investment that has launched the career of countless pilots..
And again no it isn't HA. Guess away lil fellas, go on.
p.s You are kidding aren't you T3000..friends in aviation?HA got your career going didn't he? Pilots friends with pilots....that's a good one as long as your mate ain't employed over the top, takes your twin job, gets paid more, does all the good flights, gets an airline interview before you do, gets an airline job before...Heard it all before but then again some people get their news from CNN!"where we do the thinking for you"
From memory my corspe still had life in it and the lil boys were ready to divide up the twin flying!
What are we gunna do in this country if there is a war?(ie:something to really worry about)
We are so gone........
Last edited by D Rate; 25th Jul 2004 at 08:24.
And if you want to think about it, HA could probably liquidiate the whole operation, and walk away with some return for his considerable personal investment that has launched the career of countless pilots..
That 'll be good. So then others struggling in Darwin can expand. And their casual pilots become full time... and their *replacement* casual pilots hired from ex-NAC ready to roll on 210's and get paid award.
Maybe the Citation Jet will be flying to Bathurst and round the world more often.
Dj Dave
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Darwin used to be a place where all pilots were content, getting hours etc. having a gripe about something frivolous etc. About 4 years ago DN was the place to be for aviation. You'd go out and irresprective of what company you worked for you would go out together. Remembered a time when 10 of us. 7 different companies would have a meal at coyotes, shags etc and have a great night, hit the vic etc.
A bit different today. Some of the old boys from various companies try to keep the tradition going but it's pilot's who are bitter and twisted and dare i say moulded, f56k up the tradition. The HA factor. Don't see NAC pilot's out at all. Either can't afford to or metally screwed. ( I guess this is HA's way of getting back cause he wasn't really accepted). From what i hear it reaches beyond the aviation industry.
D Rate, there are friends in aviation and thank( something) there is. If you think people are as shallow and think for themselves before thinking of others then you belong on.........
If you don't keep personalities and potentially libelous allegations out of your posts you won't be here!
Woomera
yes d rate. ( lower case cause i don,t think much of you) i worked for him and to be honest hindered me ..............could have done better elsewhere.
:
A bit different today. Some of the old boys from various companies try to keep the tradition going but it's pilot's who are bitter and twisted and dare i say moulded, f56k up the tradition. The HA factor. Don't see NAC pilot's out at all. Either can't afford to or metally screwed. ( I guess this is HA's way of getting back cause he wasn't really accepted). From what i hear it reaches beyond the aviation industry.
D Rate, there are friends in aviation and thank( something) there is. If you think people are as shallow and think for themselves before thinking of others then you belong on.........
If you don't keep personalities and potentially libelous allegations out of your posts you won't be here!
Woomera
yes d rate. ( lower case cause i don,t think much of you) i worked for him and to be honest hindered me ..............could have done better elsewhere.
:
Last edited by Woomera; 26th Jul 2004 at 21:56.
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Dear D RATE,
In your opinion, is HA doing the right thing by his pilots at NAC?- Regardless of your history with him. Im sure he did help you out but this is about current NAC staff and Im mates with a few and want to see them get what they deserve - The award
In your opinion, is HA doing the right thing by his pilots at NAC?- Regardless of your history with him. Im sure he did help you out but this is about current NAC staff and Im mates with a few and want to see them get what they deserve - The award
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geez
Watchdog, exactly...
Resign if it causes one so much angst and go and find the other greener pasture.
As for Dj Dave you may well be right, the other operator may just idealistically employ the struggling pilots, but having experienced the demise of an employer creating untold expansion opportunities, absolutely nothing happened..Knocking on doors did no good the were locked and the shutters drawn.
For those interested, go and have a look at the requirements for the issue of an AOC, the requirements for a Chief Pilot Approval, put the paperwork in and set up your own company if it is so easy.....Put that energy into something constructive
And as for T3000, well son, I frankly would have expected a little better from you. But then again as I alluded to, it is those with a personal gripe fuelling this thing, and that you clearly have. Q.E.D
The more time passes the more things stay the same...Maybe I'm getting older
Resign if it causes one so much angst and go and find the other greener pasture.
As for Dj Dave you may well be right, the other operator may just idealistically employ the struggling pilots, but having experienced the demise of an employer creating untold expansion opportunities, absolutely nothing happened..Knocking on doors did no good the were locked and the shutters drawn.
For those interested, go and have a look at the requirements for the issue of an AOC, the requirements for a Chief Pilot Approval, put the paperwork in and set up your own company if it is so easy.....Put that energy into something constructive
And as for T3000, well son, I frankly would have expected a little better from you. But then again as I alluded to, it is those with a personal gripe fuelling this thing, and that you clearly have. Q.E.D
The more time passes the more things stay the same...Maybe I'm getting older
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D Rate
Why are you so hung up on AOC's? That isn't the issue. We all know it's no mean feat to get an AOC, and that HA has a succsessful business with lots of aircraft and gives lots of pilots their first job. Who's arguing? The point is, he is not paying his pilots what he (legally) should (again, he is not the only one), and he is threatening their jobs and careers if they don't tow the line with his contract loophole.
Do you believe they should be thankfull for their pathetic wages, and just carry on until something better comes along? Is that what you're saying?
Why are you so hung up on AOC's? That isn't the issue. We all know it's no mean feat to get an AOC, and that HA has a succsessful business with lots of aircraft and gives lots of pilots their first job. Who's arguing? The point is, he is not paying his pilots what he (legally) should (again, he is not the only one), and he is threatening their jobs and careers if they don't tow the line with his contract loophole.
Do you believe they should be thankfull for their pathetic wages, and just carry on until something better comes along? Is that what you're saying?
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Just a little curious,
If you take a job which pays a certain wage do you then have the right to demand more.
Sounds a bit like buying a house next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.
There is a significant difference between statutory rights and discretionary purchases!
Woomera
If you take a job which pays a certain wage do you then have the right to demand more.
Sounds a bit like buying a house next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.
There is a significant difference between statutory rights and discretionary purchases!
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 26th Jul 2004 at 23:02.
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Geez
Papua New Guinea I notice...
A fair way from where it is happening. I simply say if it isn't good then leave. I alluded to ( but obviously wasnt a strong enough hint) this thing being driven by a few disgruntled former employees ie T3000 etc. Fellows who have got thier flying hours at NAC expense, usually moved on, got fired or gone to bigger and better things. In other words using a courageous forum such as this anonymous "wind bag arena" to further an agenda.
This agenda is not related to anything but personal attack, as evidenced by some of the heroic posts.
It is afterall not Soviet Russia, the pilots can leave set up thier own company use collective wisdom and do it for themselves. I add quite directly, it is far simpler to knock the operator providing them with the hours for advancement, the infrastructure, and indeed opportunity than to get off thier collective backsides and leave or set up their own operation.......Get it now?
"Wind bag arena", eh?
"Get it now?" No.
Woomera
A fair way from where it is happening. I simply say if it isn't good then leave. I alluded to ( but obviously wasnt a strong enough hint) this thing being driven by a few disgruntled former employees ie T3000 etc. Fellows who have got thier flying hours at NAC expense, usually moved on, got fired or gone to bigger and better things. In other words using a courageous forum such as this anonymous "wind bag arena" to further an agenda.
This agenda is not related to anything but personal attack, as evidenced by some of the heroic posts.
It is afterall not Soviet Russia, the pilots can leave set up thier own company use collective wisdom and do it for themselves. I add quite directly, it is far simpler to knock the operator providing them with the hours for advancement, the infrastructure, and indeed opportunity than to get off thier collective backsides and leave or set up their own operation.......Get it now?
"Wind bag arena", eh?
"Get it now?" No.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 27th Jul 2004 at 02:08.
Ethel the aardvark
You say
Let me clear up your curiosity as it is not the same.
You missed out the very important fact that the award became mandatory on the 24th March.
So its a bit like taking a job which pays a certain wage, BUT THEN ALL OFF A SUDDEN YOU ARE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO RECEIVE MORE
Its a bit like buying a house next to vacant land but then later on they build an airport next to you.
If you take a job which pays a certain wage do you then have the right to demand more. Sounds a bit like buying a house next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.
You missed out the very important fact that the award became mandatory on the 24th March.
So its a bit like taking a job which pays a certain wage, BUT THEN ALL OFF A SUDDEN YOU ARE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO RECEIVE MORE
Its a bit like buying a house next to vacant land but then later on they build an airport next to you.
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There is a bit of talk on this thread suggesting that HA is the saviour of the career of virtually every pilot that ever walked through his door. Sorry, but if a bloke owns a company and needs to employ staff, I don't regard it as an overly generous or kind hearted career saving act when they do employ. The fact he hands out a casual job on a 206 or 210 doesn't make him a saviour of anything in my view. Especially as some of his casuals have put in literally thousands of hours in the hangar for free to stay in the loop and snag the odd charter from Mr Generous.
D Rat,
What!? You are kidding aren't you? NAC is anything but a charity (the "volunteers" that work there may beg to differ). For every hour these fellows got, NAC received financial return, so it was hardly at NAC's expense.
Secondly, why should these pilots leave? They have a job which they have rightfully earnt, and they are entitled (since March) to a certain remuneration. Walking away does not prove a point, except it allows this sort of exploitation to continue. If you have the means (in this case the backing of the law) to fight for your entitlements, then do so.
I understand that people in aviation give you breaks, and help you out, which is great, but it doesn't permit anyone to do something illegal does it?
I too would be very interested to hear your response to t3000's last question...
Fellows who have got thier flying hours at NAC expense,
Secondly, why should these pilots leave? They have a job which they have rightfully earnt, and they are entitled (since March) to a certain remuneration. Walking away does not prove a point, except it allows this sort of exploitation to continue. If you have the means (in this case the backing of the law) to fight for your entitlements, then do so.
I understand that people in aviation give you breaks, and help you out, which is great, but it doesn't permit anyone to do something illegal does it?
I too would be very interested to hear your response to t3000's last question...