when is enough enough
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when is enough enough
Hi fellow proffessionals,
I am seriously wondering if any of you have contemplated on giving the professional flying carreer away. To date 2 major interviews, and a regional interview and no joy, as you all are aware this is a good kick in the guts. When you know that you could do the job just as good as anyone else. But with the opportunities here in OZ limited, where do you turn. I have considered CASA, What are your thoughts. There are some really great GA companies here in OZ ie RFDS, Pearl, Surveillance. Do you ever lose that fire to keep getting up and going for the elusive ( At this stage ) Airline job or do you just accept that some thimgs were not meant to be, and just be happy with what you have got. I currently work for a very large night freight operator doing the centre of OZ all the way to melb from the north, and am totally sick of it. What do you do. Go overseas where? pay more money to possibly get nothing. Is it all worth it. F***k S**e when is enough enough . This all sounds rather whoa is me whoa is me, probably is but I needed to share it. Pls give consideration CASA, Surveillance, Overseas. When is VB, Jetstar calling.
Becomming Bitter not good
YR
I am seriously wondering if any of you have contemplated on giving the professional flying carreer away. To date 2 major interviews, and a regional interview and no joy, as you all are aware this is a good kick in the guts. When you know that you could do the job just as good as anyone else. But with the opportunities here in OZ limited, where do you turn. I have considered CASA, What are your thoughts. There are some really great GA companies here in OZ ie RFDS, Pearl, Surveillance. Do you ever lose that fire to keep getting up and going for the elusive ( At this stage ) Airline job or do you just accept that some thimgs were not meant to be, and just be happy with what you have got. I currently work for a very large night freight operator doing the centre of OZ all the way to melb from the north, and am totally sick of it. What do you do. Go overseas where? pay more money to possibly get nothing. Is it all worth it. F***k S**e when is enough enough . This all sounds rather whoa is me whoa is me, probably is but I needed to share it. Pls give consideration CASA, Surveillance, Overseas. When is VB, Jetstar calling.
Becomming Bitter not good
YR
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Give yourself a goal and do everything in your power to achieve it.All I ever wanted to do was fly a small commercial jet.10 years in the industry(took longer than i thought)i finally got a job on a turboprop(metro)with a company that also operates small jets.after 12 months as an f/o on the jet i will be shortly starting my command trainning.
the point i am trying to make is that if i got bitter and twisted about the industry i would never have made it as far as i have,so just be positive and have a plan towards your goals.when youve been told no 100 times and had doors closed in your face its hard to stay positive but youve just got to pick yourself up and keep trying.
one thing my dad told me a long time ago is that if you really want something to happen you can make it if you want it enough,and hes right.
the point i am trying to make is that if i got bitter and twisted about the industry i would never have made it as far as i have,so just be positive and have a plan towards your goals.when youve been told no 100 times and had doors closed in your face its hard to stay positive but youve just got to pick yourself up and keep trying.
one thing my dad told me a long time ago is that if you really want something to happen you can make it if you want it enough,and hes right.
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You Rock,
nobody would (or should) pretend for one minute that having unrealised dreams in life with numbers of knocks / knock-backs along the way is easy.
Nevertheless, it is good at these times to refocus within and ask yourself some tough but honest questions which may be helpful in clarifying your position.
I am no psychologist, but I hope you take these thoughts in the positive mode for which I send them to you (i.e. for your benefit). Please note, I don't want an answer, I merely state them for your own reflection:
1. why are you not enjoying the present job you have - is it simply the monotony of the job, how you are treated as an employee, what you are paid or do you consider yourself to be overqualified for the job?
2. have you allowed yourself to fall victim to the seductive belief that things will be better 'on the other side of the fence'?
3. what personal strategies have you developed to enable you to appreciate what you have now and make the most of it until you feel ready to make the next move.
4. what is truly important to you in life - i.e. most important down? You might find it worthwhile to list your priorities in life and see if what you are pining for career-wise really is your number 1. What would make your life so much better if you actually got that dream-job tomorrow and why is it so important to you?
5. Are you letting external factors like the expectations of others such as family members or friends (or something as simple as a stupid teacher at school telling you that you won't make it in life?) cloud your decision making?
6. What do you think is the best response you can make to your dissappointment? No doubt you feel confused, angry, frustrated, etc. but what do you think you can do personally to channel your energy in the most positive way?
7. If you reckon you can't stand it anymore (after thorough and objective self-reflection and analysis), and it's time to hang up the wings, then make a clean break and take a different tack in life. Remember, life is to be enjoyed! We all have a very short time on this planet and that time should not be wasted simply because a seemingly important goal is not achieved!
8. On the other hand, if you objectively believe that your destiny is Airlines or whatever, DON'T LOSE HOPE! Maintaining hope is vital towards achieving your goals and keeping the fire in your belly to maintain your path without defeat.
Note: I consider defeat to mean:
'I am unable to continue in a life pursuit emotionally / physically / spiritually because of adversity or life circumstance/s'
rather than:
'I have objectively decided that my best interests lie elsewhere and I choose to take another path'.
From your thread You Rock, it would appear that you still wish to continue flying.
Make DAMN sure your reasons for continuing (if that is what you choose to do) are right, that you can be satisfied in what you are doing now and that you have the character to be equally happy in life should you have success and a plan should you continue to remain in your current job.
If that is not the case, NOW is the time to start developing that attitude as it will make a huge difference to your enjoyment of life.
After all, is your current position really that bad in comparison to other people's lots in life? How would you be if the best you could get was factory work?
Be aware also that if you can't be satisfied with your current position now, there is a fair chance you might not end up satisfied in your next job (airline or otherwise).
My advice is this: go and take some time out of your situation to smell the roses, walk in the bush, sit on the beach in the sun and get a bit of peace within.
That will help you make a good decision, one you can stick to no matter what and keep the faith and see victory in your life. Alternatively, it may convince you that you're better off doing something totally different.
That's no disgrace.
Hope this is helpful for you,
TJ.
nobody would (or should) pretend for one minute that having unrealised dreams in life with numbers of knocks / knock-backs along the way is easy.
Nevertheless, it is good at these times to refocus within and ask yourself some tough but honest questions which may be helpful in clarifying your position.
I am no psychologist, but I hope you take these thoughts in the positive mode for which I send them to you (i.e. for your benefit). Please note, I don't want an answer, I merely state them for your own reflection:
1. why are you not enjoying the present job you have - is it simply the monotony of the job, how you are treated as an employee, what you are paid or do you consider yourself to be overqualified for the job?
2. have you allowed yourself to fall victim to the seductive belief that things will be better 'on the other side of the fence'?
3. what personal strategies have you developed to enable you to appreciate what you have now and make the most of it until you feel ready to make the next move.
4. what is truly important to you in life - i.e. most important down? You might find it worthwhile to list your priorities in life and see if what you are pining for career-wise really is your number 1. What would make your life so much better if you actually got that dream-job tomorrow and why is it so important to you?
5. Are you letting external factors like the expectations of others such as family members or friends (or something as simple as a stupid teacher at school telling you that you won't make it in life?) cloud your decision making?
6. What do you think is the best response you can make to your dissappointment? No doubt you feel confused, angry, frustrated, etc. but what do you think you can do personally to channel your energy in the most positive way?
7. If you reckon you can't stand it anymore (after thorough and objective self-reflection and analysis), and it's time to hang up the wings, then make a clean break and take a different tack in life. Remember, life is to be enjoyed! We all have a very short time on this planet and that time should not be wasted simply because a seemingly important goal is not achieved!
8. On the other hand, if you objectively believe that your destiny is Airlines or whatever, DON'T LOSE HOPE! Maintaining hope is vital towards achieving your goals and keeping the fire in your belly to maintain your path without defeat.
Note: I consider defeat to mean:
'I am unable to continue in a life pursuit emotionally / physically / spiritually because of adversity or life circumstance/s'
rather than:
'I have objectively decided that my best interests lie elsewhere and I choose to take another path'.
From your thread You Rock, it would appear that you still wish to continue flying.
Make DAMN sure your reasons for continuing (if that is what you choose to do) are right, that you can be satisfied in what you are doing now and that you have the character to be equally happy in life should you have success and a plan should you continue to remain in your current job.
If that is not the case, NOW is the time to start developing that attitude as it will make a huge difference to your enjoyment of life.
After all, is your current position really that bad in comparison to other people's lots in life? How would you be if the best you could get was factory work?
Be aware also that if you can't be satisfied with your current position now, there is a fair chance you might not end up satisfied in your next job (airline or otherwise).
My advice is this: go and take some time out of your situation to smell the roses, walk in the bush, sit on the beach in the sun and get a bit of peace within.
That will help you make a good decision, one you can stick to no matter what and keep the faith and see victory in your life. Alternatively, it may convince you that you're better off doing something totally different.
That's no disgrace.
Hope this is helpful for you,
TJ.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Only just a couple of days ago the F/O with me told me a story that made me think SOME guys ouit there are not blinkered, and really have do have the guts to move on in life.
Flying is NOT the be all and end all as a career. We (as aircrew) are now having our conditions screwed mercilessly - to the point where the job is NOT becoming worth the efffort, trials and tribulations, and MONEY you are required to forego to obtain a reasonable income.
So to the story. During our ride (in the bus) to the airport, I asked the F/O where he had eaten the previous night, as he hadn't taken up the invitation to join me and a few other pilots.
He replied that he had met up with a friend of his who had gone through flying training with him, but was now enjoying life as a real estate property salesman.
Apparently he had decided from the outset (prior to commencing his personally funded training) that his goal was a major airline company - in this case JAL or ANA, not even a subsidiary company was acceptable - as the rewards (salary) were too poor of a return on his outlay.
It surprised me that someone would be willing/was able to outlay THAT amount of money for his training - especially in Japan - and then walk away from it....however that is probably the REALISTIC thing to do.
He had no regrets, and the F/O appeared genuinely convinced that his mate was settled and making MORE money in his chosen career, than had he stuck with flying.
Hats off to a man who knew how to make a decision, and stick to it.
Flying is NOT the be all and end all as a career. We (as aircrew) are now having our conditions screwed mercilessly - to the point where the job is NOT becoming worth the efffort, trials and tribulations, and MONEY you are required to forego to obtain a reasonable income.
So to the story. During our ride (in the bus) to the airport, I asked the F/O where he had eaten the previous night, as he hadn't taken up the invitation to join me and a few other pilots.
He replied that he had met up with a friend of his who had gone through flying training with him, but was now enjoying life as a real estate property salesman.
Apparently he had decided from the outset (prior to commencing his personally funded training) that his goal was a major airline company - in this case JAL or ANA, not even a subsidiary company was acceptable - as the rewards (salary) were too poor of a return on his outlay.
It surprised me that someone would be willing/was able to outlay THAT amount of money for his training - especially in Japan - and then walk away from it....however that is probably the REALISTIC thing to do.
He had no regrets, and the F/O appeared genuinely convinced that his mate was settled and making MORE money in his chosen career, than had he stuck with flying.
Hats off to a man who knew how to make a decision, and stick to it.
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I gave it away and lived
Rock,
I gave it away a couple years ago. It was a pretty hard choice to make but based on the facts, not emotions, I decided it was better to walk away and enjoy other things. I was tired of poor pay and job conditions, lousy job security, old and run down machines and stressed out operators. I also considered the fact that the industry is saturated with pilots, many of whom are older and experienced and can't find work. God bless 'em but I don't want to be in that situation. Then there is the reducing salary and conditions brought on by the lost cost operations and you find yourself in an industry where you have to work harder and harder to compete for a lot less. Those are facts.
I went to TAFE, studied Risk Management and Systems Audit and now make more that a Virgin F/O with a more diverse job and quicker promotions prospects. I work a lot less for it too. I am happy as.
Mate, just realise that there is a lot going on outside flying and there are real prospects to have a great career in any number of fields. Have think about it anyway and remember that you can always take a couple years off from flying and slip back into the system refreshed if you made the wrong choice. No rules to say that you can't have an explore outside the flying world. Good luck. All the best.
GJ.
I gave it away a couple years ago. It was a pretty hard choice to make but based on the facts, not emotions, I decided it was better to walk away and enjoy other things. I was tired of poor pay and job conditions, lousy job security, old and run down machines and stressed out operators. I also considered the fact that the industry is saturated with pilots, many of whom are older and experienced and can't find work. God bless 'em but I don't want to be in that situation. Then there is the reducing salary and conditions brought on by the lost cost operations and you find yourself in an industry where you have to work harder and harder to compete for a lot less. Those are facts.
I went to TAFE, studied Risk Management and Systems Audit and now make more that a Virgin F/O with a more diverse job and quicker promotions prospects. I work a lot less for it too. I am happy as.
Mate, just realise that there is a lot going on outside flying and there are real prospects to have a great career in any number of fields. Have think about it anyway and remember that you can always take a couple years off from flying and slip back into the system refreshed if you made the wrong choice. No rules to say that you can't have an explore outside the flying world. Good luck. All the best.
GJ.
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depends on why you're doing it. If it's for money then you may come out all right you may not...for me job satisfaction is more important than money. You can still make what 32K in GA? That's higher than the average income and besides GA is more fun and much harder work than airlines.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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An interesting and thought provoking thread! Having to pick oranges, prune out trees, prune vines, dig ditches etc when I'd much rather fly even a high time Chieftain/402/whatever; well the knowledge that I do get the occasional Pa-31 flight to do is the only thing that actually keeps me going.
However; being put under increasing pressure from 'other quarters' to give flying away completely and seek other means of employment is not exactly condusive to a good relationship.
I once was heard to make the observation that if I found myself in the situation where I could never ever fly an aircraft again I would not wish to continue living.
I guess that its all somewhat relative. Some people can make the break; others cannot!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
However; being put under increasing pressure from 'other quarters' to give flying away completely and seek other means of employment is not exactly condusive to a good relationship.
I once was heard to make the observation that if I found myself in the situation where I could never ever fly an aircraft again I would not wish to continue living.
I guess that its all somewhat relative. Some people can make the break; others cannot!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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u rock
persistence
just keep hanging on there mate
things are moving, bl##dy slowly but don't give up
one day you will look back and think how you nearly gave it all up
beats a 9 to 5
cheers
persistence
just keep hanging on there mate
things are moving, bl##dy slowly but don't give up
one day you will look back and think how you nearly gave it all up
beats a 9 to 5
cheers
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Try this for a new approach.
Take some wealthy fool for a joy ride in a sports aircraft and convince him/her that there is money in sports aircraft manufacturing. Then become a full-time ferry pilot/salesman.
I'd give it ago. It's the fastest growing sector.
U2
Take some wealthy fool for a joy ride in a sports aircraft and convince him/her that there is money in sports aircraft manufacturing. Then become a full-time ferry pilot/salesman.
I'd give it ago. It's the fastest growing sector.
U2
Grandpa Aerotart
Pinky, tried for a copilots job with Oconnors?
Leigh Oconnor is a very nice fella and it's gotta pay better than labouring...well the kind you're doing anyway.
To the others. Aviation has always had more wannabes than jobs in Australia....some, probably most, don't end up with a job on jets.
It's that simple really...despite the BS spouted by flying schools trying to part you from your hard earned cash.
I had a period of unemployment last year after my corporate jet job ended overseas...now I'm back overseas with another (probably better from a job security pov) jet job. In fact, with the exception of last year and another 12 month period flying 146s in 2000, I've spent my entire career outside OZ...as have probably many thousands of other Oz pilots who might otherwise been tempted to give aviation away stuck in dead end, low paid GA jobs.
Your choice really...give up in disgust or head OS and chance your hand in the big bad world...Africa, PNG being the only realistic options if low time.
You might of course be killed in a flying accident or murdered by natives (I'm not joking). But then again you may just have the best time of your life and end up with th experience and contacts to move on into that shiny jet...it does beat working for a living, even if it doesn't seem that way sometimes when you're struggling to remain awake at the end of a 8-10 hour sector.
You may need to buy a type rating and apply through someone like Rishworths, Parc etc.
I left Oz with 350 hrs of which about 10 was twin time. I have no cause for regret almost 11000 hrs later (most scattered over 3 different multi turbines all command and 5 jets some command)...oh and 4 friends murdered by said natives and 36 killed in flying accidents.
Chuck.
Leigh Oconnor is a very nice fella and it's gotta pay better than labouring...well the kind you're doing anyway.
To the others. Aviation has always had more wannabes than jobs in Australia....some, probably most, don't end up with a job on jets.
It's that simple really...despite the BS spouted by flying schools trying to part you from your hard earned cash.
I had a period of unemployment last year after my corporate jet job ended overseas...now I'm back overseas with another (probably better from a job security pov) jet job. In fact, with the exception of last year and another 12 month period flying 146s in 2000, I've spent my entire career outside OZ...as have probably many thousands of other Oz pilots who might otherwise been tempted to give aviation away stuck in dead end, low paid GA jobs.
Your choice really...give up in disgust or head OS and chance your hand in the big bad world...Africa, PNG being the only realistic options if low time.
You might of course be killed in a flying accident or murdered by natives (I'm not joking). But then again you may just have the best time of your life and end up with th experience and contacts to move on into that shiny jet...it does beat working for a living, even if it doesn't seem that way sometimes when you're struggling to remain awake at the end of a 8-10 hour sector.
You may need to buy a type rating and apply through someone like Rishworths, Parc etc.
I left Oz with 350 hrs of which about 10 was twin time. I have no cause for regret almost 11000 hrs later (most scattered over 3 different multi turbines all command and 5 jets some command)...oh and 4 friends murdered by said natives and 36 killed in flying accidents.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 3rd Jun 2004 at 17:35.
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Chimbu chuckles
Although sounding very dangerous, it's all no doubt an unbelievable experience and completely different to what is found here in oz...
I've often thought about the African experience however I haven't been able to find any info regarding conversions for licences/ratings etc. What is involved, how much am i looking at ($) and how hard is it to find work??
Any rundown would be great, please PM if you prefer!
Cheers mate
Ovum
Although sounding very dangerous, it's all no doubt an unbelievable experience and completely different to what is found here in oz...
I've often thought about the African experience however I haven't been able to find any info regarding conversions for licences/ratings etc. What is involved, how much am i looking at ($) and how hard is it to find work??
Any rundown would be great, please PM if you prefer!
Cheers mate
Ovum
Grandpa Aerotart
I know nothing of Africa...I spent 13+ years in PNG...much of a muchness I suggest.
Certainly in PNG the only way to get a job was to go there and get to know people for a week or so...I suggest places like Kenya are probably similar...perhaps try a post on the Africa forum.
PNG has changed a lot. It certainly was the case up until the early 90s that you could get a start there with very low hours...insurance premiums drove min requirements way up but, by the look of the min requirements for the jobs advertised last Friday, they are comming down again...2000TT for a Bandit job at Airlink (whom I worked for after Talair shut down) is very low. In my day 3000 hrs multi command IN PNG was more like the minimum before moving from Twotter to Bandit.
My first job was a C185 in the Central Highlands, the company also had an Islander. Even then, mid 80s, the company paid a small extra premium to the Insurance company for the the first few months...I had 350 odd hours but by the time I had 500 I was in the Islander more than the 185
I left PNG years ago (off the F28 at Air Niugini) so I'm out of touch but it seems the way it was then going you'd more likely start on an Islander or RHS Twin Otter/Bandit and then go LHS C404 (certainly the case at Airlink these days)...so more minimum time is/ was being asked for. 1000TT with a little twin time,<50 hrs probably.
It's all about thinking outside the square.
You guys think you have it tough these last few years, you should've been around late 70s-mid 80s. The airlines had not hired anyone since the mid 70s...there was virtually no movement at all until just before the dispute. Post dispute hiring in Australia has been, very nearly, non stop.
The guys who instructed me through PPL/CPL etc had literally aged beyond the then maximum age for getting an airline job (29ish) waiting for the airlines to start recruiting in significant numbers.
GA was of course booming in the 70s- mid 80s...new Cessnas, Pipers, Beechcraft etc arriving from the states every week. The oldest C152 trainer on the line at Rex Aviation, where I did up to CPL, was VH-IVW...it was a few months old then and is on line these days at Redcliffe Aeroclub.
Inter/intra state charter work for Barons/Chieftains etc was commonplace...but, because the airlines had only taken a tiny trickle between them all, people spent years flying GA...10 years was NOTHING in those days.
There were a lot more airlines in those days too. QF, TAA, AN, EWA, AWA, MMA as well as Hazeltons etc etc.
I still spent 18 mths between getting my CPL/Instructors rating and going to PNG and logged a grand total of 100 hrs in that time...mostly gratis.
I went to PNG and got a job flying max hours, housing supplied, and paid well....never looked back and NOTHING would have enticed me back to Oz GA....and remember those were the glory days of Oz GA. My recent enforced holiday was spent flying a C441 casual...Oz GA is a shadow of what it was 20 years ago...it's truly crap.
So get out..if VB don't call, or QF, Jet* etc don't sit on your arse, move OS...if you're motivated you'll work it out...Or sit and bitch moan over how hard done by you are...if the later you picked the wrong career for the wrong reasons.
I tried for VB while in Oz...and I have plenty of Jet time + mates at/near the top of VB...so do LOTS of people. I wasn't given the nod and while saddened at the time I'm probably better off in many respects. To get back into the industry I paid for a 767 type rating with a known job to go to straight after. Of the numerous multi/jet type ratings I have it was the first I have ever paid for...but as an investment in my career it was money VERY well spent!!!
It's a VERY TOUGH industry and NO-ONE has any rights to a successfull career...it's mostly luck. To some extent you do make your own luck however.
That simple.
Chuck.
Certainly in PNG the only way to get a job was to go there and get to know people for a week or so...I suggest places like Kenya are probably similar...perhaps try a post on the Africa forum.
PNG has changed a lot. It certainly was the case up until the early 90s that you could get a start there with very low hours...insurance premiums drove min requirements way up but, by the look of the min requirements for the jobs advertised last Friday, they are comming down again...2000TT for a Bandit job at Airlink (whom I worked for after Talair shut down) is very low. In my day 3000 hrs multi command IN PNG was more like the minimum before moving from Twotter to Bandit.
My first job was a C185 in the Central Highlands, the company also had an Islander. Even then, mid 80s, the company paid a small extra premium to the Insurance company for the the first few months...I had 350 odd hours but by the time I had 500 I was in the Islander more than the 185
I left PNG years ago (off the F28 at Air Niugini) so I'm out of touch but it seems the way it was then going you'd more likely start on an Islander or RHS Twin Otter/Bandit and then go LHS C404 (certainly the case at Airlink these days)...so more minimum time is/ was being asked for. 1000TT with a little twin time,<50 hrs probably.
It's all about thinking outside the square.
You guys think you have it tough these last few years, you should've been around late 70s-mid 80s. The airlines had not hired anyone since the mid 70s...there was virtually no movement at all until just before the dispute. Post dispute hiring in Australia has been, very nearly, non stop.
The guys who instructed me through PPL/CPL etc had literally aged beyond the then maximum age for getting an airline job (29ish) waiting for the airlines to start recruiting in significant numbers.
GA was of course booming in the 70s- mid 80s...new Cessnas, Pipers, Beechcraft etc arriving from the states every week. The oldest C152 trainer on the line at Rex Aviation, where I did up to CPL, was VH-IVW...it was a few months old then and is on line these days at Redcliffe Aeroclub.
Inter/intra state charter work for Barons/Chieftains etc was commonplace...but, because the airlines had only taken a tiny trickle between them all, people spent years flying GA...10 years was NOTHING in those days.
There were a lot more airlines in those days too. QF, TAA, AN, EWA, AWA, MMA as well as Hazeltons etc etc.
I still spent 18 mths between getting my CPL/Instructors rating and going to PNG and logged a grand total of 100 hrs in that time...mostly gratis.
I went to PNG and got a job flying max hours, housing supplied, and paid well....never looked back and NOTHING would have enticed me back to Oz GA....and remember those were the glory days of Oz GA. My recent enforced holiday was spent flying a C441 casual...Oz GA is a shadow of what it was 20 years ago...it's truly crap.
So get out..if VB don't call, or QF, Jet* etc don't sit on your arse, move OS...if you're motivated you'll work it out...Or sit and bitch moan over how hard done by you are...if the later you picked the wrong career for the wrong reasons.
I tried for VB while in Oz...and I have plenty of Jet time + mates at/near the top of VB...so do LOTS of people. I wasn't given the nod and while saddened at the time I'm probably better off in many respects. To get back into the industry I paid for a 767 type rating with a known job to go to straight after. Of the numerous multi/jet type ratings I have it was the first I have ever paid for...but as an investment in my career it was money VERY well spent!!!
It's a VERY TOUGH industry and NO-ONE has any rights to a successfull career...it's mostly luck. To some extent you do make your own luck however.
That simple.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 5th Jun 2004 at 10:28.
G'day all,
Reading this thread and being a 21 year old with 1500 hrs looking at the overseas option, thread has been really thought provoking and interesting.
Admittedly I have other reasons for moving overseas but I have a question which i would like answering. Scandinavians
Taking the oversea "experience" have any of you found the Australian License limiting when trying to find that dream jet job and have been forced into an expensive (and fairly repetitive) JAR/FAA license conversion. Or is it a case of as the hours grow and type experience is gained the license conversion factor seems to fade off into the distance somewhere?
Looking forward to the replys.
Vernaka
Reading this thread and being a 21 year old with 1500 hrs looking at the overseas option, thread has been really thought provoking and interesting.
Admittedly I have other reasons for moving overseas but I have a question which i would like answering. Scandinavians
Taking the oversea "experience" have any of you found the Australian License limiting when trying to find that dream jet job and have been forced into an expensive (and fairly repetitive) JAR/FAA license conversion. Or is it a case of as the hours grow and type experience is gained the license conversion factor seems to fade off into the distance somewhere?
Looking forward to the replys.
Vernaka
Grandpa Aerotart
Bula I'm far from an expert on overseas licences..I have Oz, PNG, NZ Atpls.
I do however know mates who went to considerable expence,time and effort to get UK ATPLs in the 80s and they are all flying jets...some still in the UK but a few gack in Oz with VB.
A US ATPL is almost useless because, outside the contigous 48 states and Alaska, they are only called for in a few Middle Eastern Corporate/airline jobs.You won't get a look in there without plenty of command time on type.
CX/KA (Cathay/Dragonair) don't require a HK licence until after you're employed and they put you through a course for the required exams for the issue. Where I am requires a JAR/NZ licence. All you need do for a NZ licence is fill out a form and enclose money with photcopies of all your Oz stuff...exams results etc.
SQ similarly I believe.
PNG issues their licence on the basis of your Oz one + pass their Air Leg exam...which in my day was a photocopy of the OZ one anyway...probably little different these days...the rest of the pacific would be the same.
Africa...only guessing but I would suggest similar.
If you have the right of abode/work in the UK that would be the best OS licence to go and get and the place most likely to succeed in getting a jet job with lowish hours...while the legends of 500hrs TT & RHS 737 are true they are not as common as you are led to believe and only happen in times of boom/pilot shortages....still common enough so UK guys and girls expect it...more likely to end up RHS in a largish turboprop for a few years first.
The UK licence is a expensive, time consuming excercise... though probably worth it if it is the only way out of a beat up 206/210 in the NT.
I was certainly lucky because my 8+ years in PNG GA were essentially the last of the PNG golden era. The reasons min requirements are going back down is for no other reason than the operators up there find it very difficult to recruit anyone at all let alone experienced guys.
Even in PNG, which has few roads and is almost totally dependant in aviation, GA is a shadow of what it was up until the mid 90s. The pay and generals conditions are likewise a shadow of what they were, in Oz$ terms anyway. Was a time when the PNG Kina was worth US$1.05/AuS$1.55...now more like OZ$.35.
Thanks to gross negligence on the part of incredibly dishonest politicians.
Doesn't mean you won't leave with a swag of experience...even Air Niugini is finding it tougher to recruit so you could even pick up some Dash 8/F28/F100 time...you'd certainly end up with as much turboprop command time as you could ever ask for.
Chuck
I do however know mates who went to considerable expence,time and effort to get UK ATPLs in the 80s and they are all flying jets...some still in the UK but a few gack in Oz with VB.
A US ATPL is almost useless because, outside the contigous 48 states and Alaska, they are only called for in a few Middle Eastern Corporate/airline jobs.You won't get a look in there without plenty of command time on type.
CX/KA (Cathay/Dragonair) don't require a HK licence until after you're employed and they put you through a course for the required exams for the issue. Where I am requires a JAR/NZ licence. All you need do for a NZ licence is fill out a form and enclose money with photcopies of all your Oz stuff...exams results etc.
SQ similarly I believe.
PNG issues their licence on the basis of your Oz one + pass their Air Leg exam...which in my day was a photocopy of the OZ one anyway...probably little different these days...the rest of the pacific would be the same.
Africa...only guessing but I would suggest similar.
If you have the right of abode/work in the UK that would be the best OS licence to go and get and the place most likely to succeed in getting a jet job with lowish hours...while the legends of 500hrs TT & RHS 737 are true they are not as common as you are led to believe and only happen in times of boom/pilot shortages....still common enough so UK guys and girls expect it...more likely to end up RHS in a largish turboprop for a few years first.
The UK licence is a expensive, time consuming excercise... though probably worth it if it is the only way out of a beat up 206/210 in the NT.
I was certainly lucky because my 8+ years in PNG GA were essentially the last of the PNG golden era. The reasons min requirements are going back down is for no other reason than the operators up there find it very difficult to recruit anyone at all let alone experienced guys.
Even in PNG, which has few roads and is almost totally dependant in aviation, GA is a shadow of what it was up until the mid 90s. The pay and generals conditions are likewise a shadow of what they were, in Oz$ terms anyway. Was a time when the PNG Kina was worth US$1.05/AuS$1.55...now more like OZ$.35.
Thanks to gross negligence on the part of incredibly dishonest politicians.
Doesn't mean you won't leave with a swag of experience...even Air Niugini is finding it tougher to recruit so you could even pick up some Dash 8/F28/F100 time...you'd certainly end up with as much turboprop command time as you could ever ask for.
Chuck
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Chuck,
I have heard a rumour that it is possible to obtain JAA ATPL credit with a NZ ATPL. Not sure of its veracity.
Referring to your post, quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where I am requires a JAR/NZ licence. All you need do for a NZ licence is fill out a form and enclose money with photcopies of all your Oz stuff...exams results etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your mention of JAR - are you talking about that stuff I heard rumoured above?
I have an Oz ATPL and would be interested to know what options are available to be suitably qualified for UK / other European work.
That is, are there any other avenues to getting your JAA or UK ATPL other than going through the full UK ATPL and it's associated costs (have heard $40K even with Oz ATPL experience levels).
Is there a cheap way or not?
If the Kiwi licence gets you further than the Oz ATPL I am interested to getting the NZ ATPL then.
Any help on this would be appreciated.
regards,
TJ
I have heard a rumour that it is possible to obtain JAA ATPL credit with a NZ ATPL. Not sure of its veracity.
Referring to your post, quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where I am requires a JAR/NZ licence. All you need do for a NZ licence is fill out a form and enclose money with photcopies of all your Oz stuff...exams results etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your mention of JAR - are you talking about that stuff I heard rumoured above?
I have an Oz ATPL and would be interested to know what options are available to be suitably qualified for UK / other European work.
That is, are there any other avenues to getting your JAA or UK ATPL other than going through the full UK ATPL and it's associated costs (have heard $40K even with Oz ATPL experience levels).
Is there a cheap way or not?
If the Kiwi licence gets you further than the Oz ATPL I am interested to getting the NZ ATPL then.
Any help on this would be appreciated.
regards,
TJ
Grandpa Aerotart
As far as I'm aware the NZ ATPL does NOT get you any savings on a UK ATPL. I had heard the last loophole/backdoor method to get a UK ATPL, The Irish ATPL
and/or the Swiss ATPL was closed some years ago.
The only reason an Oz ATPL is not acceptable here is because the morons at CASA made it too expensive for our UK ATPL holding and UK/NZ CAA approved TRE/IREs to gain and hold OZ I/R renewal approvals...the usual CASA BS overseas, overpriced junket mentality when it comes to approving simulators/Instructors...the company just said no when the cost per annum was tallied up.
About the only relief you can get for the UK ATPL is having significant command experience in aircraft over either 20000kg or 40000kg...can't remember which or how many hours...and it's only relief for some of the exams, you still must do an I/R ride with a CAA examiner.
I remember a QF 747 Captain went into UK CAA Head Orofice years ago with the intention of applying for a UK ATPL. Having commanded a 747 into LHR he pitched up with all his logbooks, licences etc and the best he could get was a PPL...things have changed a little since then...but not a lot.
Chuck
and/or the Swiss ATPL was closed some years ago.The only reason an Oz ATPL is not acceptable here is because the morons at CASA made it too expensive for our UK ATPL holding and UK/NZ CAA approved TRE/IREs to gain and hold OZ I/R renewal approvals...the usual CASA BS overseas, overpriced junket mentality when it comes to approving simulators/Instructors...the company just said no when the cost per annum was tallied up.
About the only relief you can get for the UK ATPL is having significant command experience in aircraft over either 20000kg or 40000kg...can't remember which or how many hours...and it's only relief for some of the exams, you still must do an I/R ride with a CAA examiner.
I remember a QF 747 Captain went into UK CAA Head Orofice years ago with the intention of applying for a UK ATPL. Having commanded a 747 into LHR he pitched up with all his logbooks, licences etc and the best he could get was a PPL...things have changed a little since then...but not a lot.
Chuck