IFR Q: Descent ino non-circling area
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IFR Q: Descent into non-circling area
I'm interested in some opinions about the following. Here's the scenario:
You are conducting an IFR charter flight, inbound from the East to aerodrome XYZ, by night. You are carrying paying pax therefore cannot operate VFR.
Aerodrome XYZ is a CTAF with runway direction 18/36, and is at sea level. There is an obstacle at 500' AMSL to the east, in a mid-downwind position for runway 18. There is no PAPI or T-VASI. ERSA lists no restrictions on circuit direction, however from the IAL charts you see that the area to the east of the centreline is excluded from the circling area.
For whatever reason you can't do a DME or GPS arrival.
In this situation, according to AIP ENR 1.1:11.5.5, you must maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA until the aircraft is within the prescribed circling area and the aerodrome is in sight.
However, from the same AIP reference, for a VFR flight you must maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight until the aircraft is within 3NM of the aerodrome and the aerodrome is in sight. Common sense would also tell you to have regard for any terrain and obstacles etc, however you can legally fly a 1000' left circuit onto 18 with 500' obstacle clearance (CAR157).
My question is, can the VFR rules be applied in this case, allowing you to descend below LSALT/MSA from 3NM to the East, even though this is a non-circling area? I've asked an FOI about this, so when/if I get an answer i'll post it here as well.
You are conducting an IFR charter flight, inbound from the East to aerodrome XYZ, by night. You are carrying paying pax therefore cannot operate VFR.
Aerodrome XYZ is a CTAF with runway direction 18/36, and is at sea level. There is an obstacle at 500' AMSL to the east, in a mid-downwind position for runway 18. There is no PAPI or T-VASI. ERSA lists no restrictions on circuit direction, however from the IAL charts you see that the area to the east of the centreline is excluded from the circling area.
For whatever reason you can't do a DME or GPS arrival.
In this situation, according to AIP ENR 1.1:11.5.5, you must maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA until the aircraft is within the prescribed circling area and the aerodrome is in sight.
However, from the same AIP reference, for a VFR flight you must maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight until the aircraft is within 3NM of the aerodrome and the aerodrome is in sight. Common sense would also tell you to have regard for any terrain and obstacles etc, however you can legally fly a 1000' left circuit onto 18 with 500' obstacle clearance (CAR157).
My question is, can the VFR rules be applied in this case, allowing you to descend below LSALT/MSA from 3NM to the East, even though this is a non-circling area? I've asked an FOI about this, so when/if I get an answer i'll post it here as well.
Last edited by Mr Whippy; 21st Apr 2004 at 02:51.
At first reading my answer would be yes (but I stand to be corrected) if VMC conditions prevailed. No circling applies to tracking for final off an instrument approach which can be in less than VMC and at the MDA for the approach which will often (usually) be (alot) less than 1000 ft AGL. As an IFR flight I believe you have to follow the VFR circuit pattern in VMC.
That said if you knew that such an obstacle existed you would want to make bloody sure you had it in sight prior to circuit entry if unfamiliar with the airfield.
That said if you knew that such an obstacle existed you would want to make bloody sure you had it in sight prior to circuit entry if unfamiliar with the airfield.
Grandpa Aerotart
Keep It Simple Stupid!!
The fact that you can't do a GPS/DME arrival "for whatever reason" suggests the aircraft and/or ground equipment is u/s or not fitted...surely unlikely in this day and age!!
That being the case common sense suggests you will be unable to determine accurately where 3nm is...making the VFR alternative unattractive, impractical and possibly illegal. Although I would agree with the premise that there is nothing illegal about useing VFR procedures on an IFR flight...just not in this scenario.
So the simplest solution is to maintain LSALT or MSA until overhead and descend to circuit ht upwind/crosswind before flying a perfectly normal circuit and landing. As you suggest the obstacle allows normal circuit ht and will be out of the picture by the time you leave circuit alt on base.
Dark hole approaches sans vasis/papi are fraught with peril...there is simply no reason to complicate a dangerous situation to save 3 minutes...it's called airmanship!!!
Chuck.
The fact that you can't do a GPS/DME arrival "for whatever reason" suggests the aircraft and/or ground equipment is u/s or not fitted...surely unlikely in this day and age!!
That being the case common sense suggests you will be unable to determine accurately where 3nm is...making the VFR alternative unattractive, impractical and possibly illegal. Although I would agree with the premise that there is nothing illegal about useing VFR procedures on an IFR flight...just not in this scenario.
So the simplest solution is to maintain LSALT or MSA until overhead and descend to circuit ht upwind/crosswind before flying a perfectly normal circuit and landing. As you suggest the obstacle allows normal circuit ht and will be out of the picture by the time you leave circuit alt on base.
Dark hole approaches sans vasis/papi are fraught with peril...there is simply no reason to complicate a dangerous situation to save 3 minutes...it's called airmanship!!!
Chuck.
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Keeping it Simple
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Piston Twin and Captain Marvellous you are correct of course, a brain fade on my part - I wanted to exclude the possibility of changing category to VFR as an answer...
Slice, that's what I reckon as well.
Chimbu, I strongly agree, your reply reeks of common sense. especially KISS! My original post was anything but simple.
Scrap the scenario and replace it with this question:
Can anyone give me a reason why one cannot apply VFR procedures to IFR flight in VMC at night?
Piston Twin and Captain Marvellous you are correct of course, a brain fade on my part - I wanted to exclude the possibility of changing category to VFR as an answer...
Slice, that's what I reckon as well.
Chimbu, I strongly agree, your reply reeks of common sense. especially KISS! My original post was anything but simple.
Scrap the scenario and replace it with this question:
Can anyone give me a reason why one cannot apply VFR procedures to IFR flight in VMC at night?
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I guess the only confusion may be in the definition of “prescribed circling area”. The requirements for an IFR visual approach at night is to track to within the “prescribed circling area” before joining the circuit as directed by ATC. “Circling area” is the arc drawn from threshold etc etc however “visual circling” is prohibited in "no circling areas" at night.
So the confusion may be as to whether “no circling areas” are included in “prescribed circling areas” in regards to visual approaches at night?
A bit confusing but I don’t think that the “restrictions to visual circling” apply to night IFR visual approaches because you’re flying a visual approach, not circling from a NPA.
Clear as mud.
Anyway Whippy, I'm not sure that this is what you're after but I hope it helps.
SW
So the confusion may be as to whether “no circling areas” are included in “prescribed circling areas” in regards to visual approaches at night?
A bit confusing but I don’t think that the “restrictions to visual circling” apply to night IFR visual approaches because you’re flying a visual approach, not circling from a NPA.
Clear as mud.
Anyway Whippy, I'm not sure that this is what you're after but I hope it helps.
SW
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Thanks for the answers people.
I heard back from the FOI yesterday, his answer was that this is one of those cases where there is nothing that explicitly restricts this, therefore it can be done.
I heard back from the FOI yesterday, his answer was that this is one of those cases where there is nothing that explicitly restricts this, therefore it can be done.
Erm....you *can* fly VFR at night for charter. You just can't do it on a Night VFR rating. N.VFR rating is only valid for PVT & AWK ops. However, if the PIC holds both a CIR and the mininum N.VFR experience specified in the CAOs then N.VFR for charter is perfectly legal. The a/c must also be equipped for IFR flight, as far as I can remember (away for over 5 years so some details are getting hazy...)
So, in the scenario above, the flight was IFR therefore the PIC & the a/c are equipped for such. Provided the PIC also meets the N.VFR experience requirements then using N.VFR procedures is possible. Doesn't guarantee any benefit, but can be a useful option.
IF you're in VMC you could:
* descend to any new, lower N.VFR lowest safe altitude as soon as you have visually determined you've passed the previously limiting obstacle. Bear in mind that the criteria for the included area is different for N.VFR compared to IFR so sometimes N.VFR LSALT can be lower than IFR, quite apart from the 'immediate descent' option.
* use whatever features are visible to fix position within the circuit area. If you can't do that during the arrival phase then best joining o/head & descending within the circling area. Good sense would have you descend on the non-obstacle side if the obstacle is limiting within the circling area, irrespective of dead side/ live side orientation. If other traffic then coordinate who gets to use the airspace first.
* don't forget the slightly different alternate requirements (due navaid) for N.VFR.
So, in the scenario above, the flight was IFR therefore the PIC & the a/c are equipped for such. Provided the PIC also meets the N.VFR experience requirements then using N.VFR procedures is possible. Doesn't guarantee any benefit, but can be a useful option.
IF you're in VMC you could:
* descend to any new, lower N.VFR lowest safe altitude as soon as you have visually determined you've passed the previously limiting obstacle. Bear in mind that the criteria for the included area is different for N.VFR compared to IFR so sometimes N.VFR LSALT can be lower than IFR, quite apart from the 'immediate descent' option.
* use whatever features are visible to fix position within the circuit area. If you can't do that during the arrival phase then best joining o/head & descending within the circling area. Good sense would have you descend on the non-obstacle side if the obstacle is limiting within the circling area, irrespective of dead side/ live side orientation. If other traffic then coordinate who gets to use the airspace first.
* don't forget the slightly different alternate requirements (due navaid) for N.VFR.
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There is always an interesting clash of ideas of how to operate an IFR flight in VMC conditions. I recall a similar discussion about conducting a straight in approach off an IAL such as GPS NPA (on an IFR planned flight) when in VMC conditions (eg CAVOK) in a CTAF.
To your post.
If you are in VMC conditions, day or night, why can't you then fly to those rules, which as already noted can be less restictive, UNLESS the company Operations Manual states otherwise.
So for your question, when within 3 miles, there is no legal restriction I know of as to why you cannot descend visually in VMC to circuit altitude (1000' AMSL in this case) and fly the required THREE legs of the circuit. There is no circuit restiction in the ERSA, which will prevent non-VFR compliance (ie <500' AGL). So this will put you 500' above the obstacle which is of course satisfactory for VFR flight.
Mind you it would be better to overfly since judging three miles at night with no TSO'd GPS or DME is dubious? Better to not rush a night approach, VMC or IMC!!
CW
PS: As to the above question, the answer to that was NO to the straight in approach in VMC conditions since you needed to fly the VFR rules that require three legs of a circuit to be flown (CAR 166(2), the key being in IMC!)
To your post.
If you are in VMC conditions, day or night, why can't you then fly to those rules, which as already noted can be less restictive, UNLESS the company Operations Manual states otherwise.
So for your question, when within 3 miles, there is no legal restriction I know of as to why you cannot descend visually in VMC to circuit altitude (1000' AMSL in this case) and fly the required THREE legs of the circuit. There is no circuit restiction in the ERSA, which will prevent non-VFR compliance (ie <500' AGL). So this will put you 500' above the obstacle which is of course satisfactory for VFR flight.
Mind you it would be better to overfly since judging three miles at night with no TSO'd GPS or DME is dubious? Better to not rush a night approach, VMC or IMC!!
CW
PS: As to the above question, the answer to that was NO to the straight in approach in VMC conditions since you needed to fly the VFR rules that require three legs of a circuit to be flown (CAR 166(2), the key being in IMC!)
