The employees have no money, then let them eat cake!
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Lawrie
How about you post a copy on PPRuNe of that Ambit Claim you had a decade or so ago?
I've lost the last one you served on me some years ago, would love another copy and need a laugh.
Ace
How about you post a copy on PPRuNe of that Ambit Claim you had a decade or so ago?
I've lost the last one you served on me some years ago, would love another copy and need a laugh.
Ace
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Thank you...
Thank you for coming on and having a go, Mr Cox.
I am afraid I don't know much about industrial relations or law and I suspect that many other readers on this forum are in the same boat.
1/. Can you confirm that the GA award as provided on the AFAP website is, in fact, applicable to all GA pilots whether or not members of the union?
And:
2/. Can you also confirm for us that "workplace agreements" or other deals offered by employers MUST be ratified and pass a 'no disadvantage' test?
MICKSTER
you said:
"because this employment commenced before I became a member, the AFAP are unable to assist in a worthwhile way."
You then went on to quote that the award is applicable to all persons working in the industry and not only those party to the negotiation of the award.
Why would the AFAP then not be able to help?
Is it a matter of "You weren't a member then, so we won't help you now?"
I am afraid I don't know much about industrial relations or law and I suspect that many other readers on this forum are in the same boat.
1/. Can you confirm that the GA award as provided on the AFAP website is, in fact, applicable to all GA pilots whether or not members of the union?
And:
2/. Can you also confirm for us that "workplace agreements" or other deals offered by employers MUST be ratified and pass a 'no disadvantage' test?
MICKSTER
you said:
"because this employment commenced before I became a member, the AFAP are unable to assist in a worthwhile way."
You then went on to quote that the award is applicable to all persons working in the industry and not only those party to the negotiation of the award.
Why would the AFAP then not be able to help?
Is it a matter of "You weren't a member then, so we won't help you now?"
Last edited by Bendo; 18th Mar 2004 at 10:30.
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1 The GA Award is applicable to all named parties and successors companies. This is the reason the respondents list is so long. A pilot is eligible to be paid all salary and conditions whether a member or not of the AFAP. You can go to Workplace Relations Department (Federal) to chase underpayments or hire your own solictor to chase entitlements or be a member of the AFAP.
2 For an Australian Worplace Agreement (AWA) to legal it needs to be approved by the office of the Employee Advocate. Whilst the Act states it must not be lower than aggreagte of entitlements under the relevant Award our experience has shown that they have approved lower but the individual needs to force the issue or authorise someone like AFAP to do so.
In relation to Mickster comment
Our organisation did undertake claims in the past for people who were not members at the time only to see them dissappear at the first opportunity after recovering the payments. Accordingly we now enforce the policy that if you were not a member at the time we will assist in your preparation but not the enforcement of a claim.
The major factor being we operate on our members paying fees we cannot justify spending that income on those who only seek a short coverage with no long term interest in the industry.
In relation to Ace comment
More than happy to provide a copy of the log that is used for creation of the AMBIT in the general awards. As was explained to those operators who so kindly rang and abused our office staff at the time there is a legal process under the workplace relations act 1986. I recommend you read it sometime then make an educated comment.
Lawrie Cox
Manager Industrial Relations AFAP
[email protected] or [email protected] or www.afap.org.au
2 For an Australian Worplace Agreement (AWA) to legal it needs to be approved by the office of the Employee Advocate. Whilst the Act states it must not be lower than aggreagte of entitlements under the relevant Award our experience has shown that they have approved lower but the individual needs to force the issue or authorise someone like AFAP to do so.
In relation to Mickster comment
Our organisation did undertake claims in the past for people who were not members at the time only to see them dissappear at the first opportunity after recovering the payments. Accordingly we now enforce the policy that if you were not a member at the time we will assist in your preparation but not the enforcement of a claim.
The major factor being we operate on our members paying fees we cannot justify spending that income on those who only seek a short coverage with no long term interest in the industry.
In relation to Ace comment
More than happy to provide a copy of the log that is used for creation of the AMBIT in the general awards. As was explained to those operators who so kindly rang and abused our office staff at the time there is a legal process under the workplace relations act 1986. I recommend you read it sometime then make an educated comment.
Lawrie Cox
Manager Industrial Relations AFAP
[email protected] or [email protected] or www.afap.org.au
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To quote Lawrie Cox "No union can force someone to enforce an Award if they choose not to." Therein lies the problem. It's like p*****g in a wetsuit. It gives you a warm feeling but nobody takes any notice. Somehow the AFAP need to get a set of (new?) teeth.
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Bendo
Could I just clarify... What I meant was that the AFAP couldn't represent me in court etc, as I was not a member at the time I was employed by the company, but that they do offer any other assistance eg, precedents and other info your legal team may require. So the sooner you join, particularly for the fresh commercial guys, then AFAP can start to get stuck into the shonky operators on your behalf.
The cost is 1% of your income (we all spend more on grog than that) and if your casual, give the guys at AFAP a call and they will help you out as best they can. Even if you are temporarily out of aviation work there is dirt cheap rate to keep you current.
The AFAP membership (financial members) would have voted on this decision to not spend money on legal cases unless the pilot was finacial at the time of employment. I agree with the decision and can see why they enforce it, although it's frustrating as you generally don't hear about the AFAP until you've had or are having problems. This is why the fresh Commercial guys & gals need to be made aware of the AFAP before they get out into the "shafting zone".
It's a shame so many pilots have jumped in to use the AFAP system and left when they no longer felt that it was beneficial to them even though they were still employed in the industry.
I FLY
I'm afraid your beef is aimed at the wrong organisation. I would be pointing at the government (perhaps even CASA?) who cannot or won't even enforce the award. In my case, a Breach Notice had been issued to the company for numerous breaches of the Award by the Department of Workplace Relations, but the company just ignores it. Even the government has no teeth. The various departments are disinterested as are the Ministers/Opposition etc (believe me I tried, but not enough votes to worry about) so the only person who can take any action is YOU and your solicitor. Unless of course you are a member of AFAP!
The shonky companies rely on all this chain of events in the hope that you will give up. There are numerous cases that are won, but they are not widely discussed. I believe there are two reasons for this.
1. The company does not wish this to become known about as every pilot for the last 6 years (that is the time limit from which you commence employment with the company to when you must have made a claim against them) that has been employed by the company can make a claim. Big dollars!!!
2. The pilot does not wish it to become well known as this could reflect unfavourably with the next employer.
In my experience, number 2 is a load of dogs bollocks! The good companies are happy that you do this as with each claim, the dodgy company gets closer to folding.
And for all those people who cry about the lost jobs when the company goes under...the company shouldn't have been operating in the first place if it couldn't afford it's most important resource, the pilot. Where remote areas need the service, the reputable companies will charge an appropriate amount for the service to cover ALL costs and make a profit.
Could I just clarify... What I meant was that the AFAP couldn't represent me in court etc, as I was not a member at the time I was employed by the company, but that they do offer any other assistance eg, precedents and other info your legal team may require. So the sooner you join, particularly for the fresh commercial guys, then AFAP can start to get stuck into the shonky operators on your behalf.
The cost is 1% of your income (we all spend more on grog than that) and if your casual, give the guys at AFAP a call and they will help you out as best they can. Even if you are temporarily out of aviation work there is dirt cheap rate to keep you current.
The AFAP membership (financial members) would have voted on this decision to not spend money on legal cases unless the pilot was finacial at the time of employment. I agree with the decision and can see why they enforce it, although it's frustrating as you generally don't hear about the AFAP until you've had or are having problems. This is why the fresh Commercial guys & gals need to be made aware of the AFAP before they get out into the "shafting zone".
It's a shame so many pilots have jumped in to use the AFAP system and left when they no longer felt that it was beneficial to them even though they were still employed in the industry.
I FLY
I'm afraid your beef is aimed at the wrong organisation. I would be pointing at the government (perhaps even CASA?) who cannot or won't even enforce the award. In my case, a Breach Notice had been issued to the company for numerous breaches of the Award by the Department of Workplace Relations, but the company just ignores it. Even the government has no teeth. The various departments are disinterested as are the Ministers/Opposition etc (believe me I tried, but not enough votes to worry about) so the only person who can take any action is YOU and your solicitor. Unless of course you are a member of AFAP!
The shonky companies rely on all this chain of events in the hope that you will give up. There are numerous cases that are won, but they are not widely discussed. I believe there are two reasons for this.
1. The company does not wish this to become known about as every pilot for the last 6 years (that is the time limit from which you commence employment with the company to when you must have made a claim against them) that has been employed by the company can make a claim. Big dollars!!!
2. The pilot does not wish it to become well known as this could reflect unfavourably with the next employer.
In my experience, number 2 is a load of dogs bollocks! The good companies are happy that you do this as with each claim, the dodgy company gets closer to folding.
And for all those people who cry about the lost jobs when the company goes under...the company shouldn't have been operating in the first place if it couldn't afford it's most important resource, the pilot. Where remote areas need the service, the reputable companies will charge an appropriate amount for the service to cover ALL costs and make a profit.
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The employees have no money?
Maybe if you're not getting paid what you should the reason just might be that if you're an Instructor, you are one of those that stands in front of the booking sheets all day trying to "will" bookings to appear! We have had 2 new Instructors start in the past month, one only wanted to work 2 days a week and didn't want to fly more than four hrs a day (he flew 30 hrs over 5 days, and he just doesn't want to fly that much! - he has now decided to head west and he goes with our best wishes) and the other has just given 4 weeks notice (is still going to stay on as a casual and will still fly at least 15 hours a week) as he wants to be paid the award but wants to be able to just roll up and fly when he feels like it. I have spoken to both of these staff about superannuation - they had never heard of it and didn't know if their previous employers paid it or not - guess it hasn't been paid as all the rest of us get twice yearly reports of our account status and also at the end of the fortnight when we get paid, the amount paid into our super fund is detailed. All pilots must be in a super fund, the industry one is particularly good in that it provides death cover insurance of around $55,000 for under 25's - especially important if mum and dad have mortgaged their house for thre flying training. I wish we could charge $18,000 for an Instructor Rating and then get 100 hrs of instructing supplied for free - does this reduce the hourly learn to fly costs? We charge $10,000 with the possibility of up to 100 hrs instructing work (fully paid) if the student meets our requirements.
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The emplyees have no money......
Parablues, you should go back to that coy you worked for and get the super you are owed - you owe it to your dependants to do so. Glad you are getting what you are worth now. Best of luck for the fiture! (Hope the new boss is doing all the right stuff) The schools won't get away with not paying the super anymore - if you send the super off one day late now, you get fined by the super fund guarantee people as well as still paying the super. You need to contact the superannuation guarantee fund people and let them know what has happened to you and see if they can recommend a course of action for you, $8/hr for a Grade III is criminal, let alone for a more qualified Instructr. My husband was paid $10/hr back in 1981 when he started Instructing at Berwick!
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There are ways around this. No matter what your employer says, has you sign or any contract entered into, if it is below what the federal award states, it is illegal and the employer has no recorse.
However the real problem is the amount we are paid an how that is calculated.
No other industry pays its employees only when they are working. You go to work clock on and get paid until you clock off. This is regardless ot the amount of work you do. This is why the public service is so inept.
So pilots should be paid from the time they start work until finish, i.e DUTY TIME. More pilot max out on duty then they do flight time. This will then see employers implement proper rostering to ensure THEY DON`T GET RIPPED OFF by pilots just hanging around wasting time. Employers wont employ excessive amounts of pilots and have them undertaking menial task just to past time and squeeze them for everything they can. Pilots who do the lion share of flying will still get that flying and hence get more duty time. Pilots who stay employed in companies just waiting for something better will get rostered less and more likely leave cause they can`t pay the bills. Most importantly it will give pilots the ability to work a second job if need be as they will know when they are required to work and when they are not. As for unions, well, they are only in it cause they can get something out of it.
However the real problem is the amount we are paid an how that is calculated.
No other industry pays its employees only when they are working. You go to work clock on and get paid until you clock off. This is regardless ot the amount of work you do. This is why the public service is so inept.
So pilots should be paid from the time they start work until finish, i.e DUTY TIME. More pilot max out on duty then they do flight time. This will then see employers implement proper rostering to ensure THEY DON`T GET RIPPED OFF by pilots just hanging around wasting time. Employers wont employ excessive amounts of pilots and have them undertaking menial task just to past time and squeeze them for everything they can. Pilots who do the lion share of flying will still get that flying and hence get more duty time. Pilots who stay employed in companies just waiting for something better will get rostered less and more likely leave cause they can`t pay the bills. Most importantly it will give pilots the ability to work a second job if need be as they will know when they are required to work and when they are not. As for unions, well, they are only in it cause they can get something out of it.
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Tealady YOU are a gem!
Great idea there tealady... I have gotten onto them already and I will keep you posted... Glad to hear that your Melbourne schools have more ethics than SA - keep up the great work...!
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Let them eat cake.....
Parablues, to assist you in your calculations, you must be paid super each time you earn more than $400 per month from an employer. For the current FY, they must pay at least 9% of your gross wage into the fund, for 2002/2003 it was 8%, 2001/2002 it was 7%, 2001/2002 it was 6% and prior to that for the years (if I remember right) it was 5%. Also, if your wife/partner isn't working you can pay up to $3000 p.a. into a super fund for hear and you claim the deduction -speak to an accountant about that one. When you are full time as a pilot you also are entitled to 6 weeks leave per year but you only get leave loading for 4 weeks as the other 2 weeks are to make up for working weekends and public holidays and you are entitled to the leave pro rata if you leave the company after working for 12 months. Make sure you state on your employment tax declaration whether you are full time, casual or part time. This should lay down the parameters of your pay rate and conditions from the word go and you shouldn't go wrong. (If you do get any more $'s from this info - you owe me a peppermint magnum with a cuppa!
Hmmmmm, a considerable time ago I went from Casual earning <400 month to full time, but never had to resign an employment dec. Wonder where it's going to leave MY super situation!
By the way, speaking to a few friends who haven't been paid super, they rang and spoke to the tax office to be told "we have a 3 year backlog of unpaid super" But the good news is once a complaint about a company was made, the whole comapany was investigated not just an individual.
By the way, speaking to a few friends who haven't been paid super, they rang and spoke to the tax office to be told "we have a 3 year backlog of unpaid super" But the good news is once a complaint about a company was made, the whole comapany was investigated not just an individual.
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let them eat cake!
GA Driver, doesn't matter to the super requirements whether you signed a new eployment dec or not -as soon as you are earning over that $400 a month - you are owed super and it is payable on whatever basis you are employed in this industry. It is poosible that if you operate as a "contractor" and have your own ABN, then YOU will be liable for payment of the super - so make sure you tack that 9% on to your invoice.
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Cake
Its all industries I am afraid. The normal practice is to ask the interviewee what they expect to get paid and then look amazed! They go on a course for this I think. Its the same one that teaches them to say "You'll just have to " and leggit and " We've got to have it now!"
There is a theory that managers have their brains, balls and backbones removed when they go for their suit fitting.
There is a theory that managers have their brains, balls and backbones removed when they go for their suit fitting.
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Speedbird 23
"The Unions are just in it for themselves"
Could you justify this statement please?
What possible benefit could an industrial organisation derive from hanging around bludging off member's dues?
"Plois Ixploin" as the Oxleymoron says
Could you justify this statement please?
What possible benefit could an industrial organisation derive from hanging around bludging off member's dues?
"Plois Ixploin" as the Oxleymoron says
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Good post capt marvellous!
Does this mean that if a company "changes name" (i.e. ceases to trade and opens as another company) then they are no longer bound by the award since they are no longer on Appendix A?
Does this mean that if a company "changes name" (i.e. ceases to trade and opens as another company) then they are no longer bound by the award since they are no longer on Appendix A?
Captain M,
Heading of 5. in the award "WHERE AND WHO THE AWARD COVERS"? I'm listed in 5.2, therefore I am covered by the award.
Heading 6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?" also refers to me (through 5.2), so I am also bound by the award.
I am bound and covered by this award, yet my employer isn't in Appendix A (would you be able to post a link to this appendix?), so they don't have to pay it? Does this match your understanding of the award? Does this make sense? Laurie Cox?
Sounds like award would be more useful as lav paper! And in turn makes AFAP as useful as t!ts on a bull.
Heading of 5. in the award "WHERE AND WHO THE AWARD COVERS"? I'm listed in 5.2, therefore I am covered by the award.
Heading 6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?" also refers to me (through 5.2), so I am also bound by the award.
I am bound and covered by this award, yet my employer isn't in Appendix A (would you be able to post a link to this appendix?), so they don't have to pay it? Does this match your understanding of the award? Does this make sense? Laurie Cox?
Sounds like award would be more useful as lav paper! And in turn makes AFAP as useful as t!ts on a bull.
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Captain M
As Growler implied, How can the Award be binding on a Pilot and not the operator they are employed by? How does this work?
Isn't the intention of the Award to stop pilots getting underpaid/overworked and protect the employer from pilots who may leave them in the lurch without the proper notification. If this is the case, why do employers get the option of being a signatory, but the pilot doesn't?
After re-reading my post, although it isn't clear, I intended my reference to "CASA?" to be in relation to the enforcement of flight and duty times. Everyone knows that Casuals never put down their actual Tour of Duty because if they did then they would be near their limits the whole time and wouldn't be available for all flights. Remember, to the casual no fly=no pay!
The employers abuse this unashamedly, by telling the employee to come and do some "stuff" around the office/hangar and something just might come up. Show me your keen and I MAY just dish out a flight for you. In reality, the operator has almost an endless supply of free labour.
As Growler implied, How can the Award be binding on a Pilot and not the operator they are employed by? How does this work?
Isn't the intention of the Award to stop pilots getting underpaid/overworked and protect the employer from pilots who may leave them in the lurch without the proper notification. If this is the case, why do employers get the option of being a signatory, but the pilot doesn't?
After re-reading my post, although it isn't clear, I intended my reference to "CASA?" to be in relation to the enforcement of flight and duty times. Everyone knows that Casuals never put down their actual Tour of Duty because if they did then they would be near their limits the whole time and wouldn't be available for all flights. Remember, to the casual no fly=no pay!
The employers abuse this unashamedly, by telling the employee to come and do some "stuff" around the office/hangar and something just might come up. Show me your keen and I MAY just dish out a flight for you. In reality, the operator has almost an endless supply of free labour.
grrowler,
You could do yourself and everyone else a favour and provide the AFAP with the details of the last few companies you have worked for that are not listed in the award. From memory your last 3-4 operators are not listed in the award.
The AFAP will then include these operators in the next round of the award.
To quote Para 6 "The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.", even if you are bound by 5.2, if your employer is not named in the appendix, they are not bound.
Also individual companies may decide to have a certified workplace agreement under section 170LS of the workplace relations act.
To quote Lawrie Cox in this thread
You could do yourself and everyone else a favour and provide the AFAP with the details of the last few companies you have worked for that are not listed in the award. From memory your last 3-4 operators are not listed in the award.
The AFAP will then include these operators in the next round of the award.
To quote Para 6 "The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.", even if you are bound by 5.2, if your employer is not named in the appendix, they are not bound.
Also individual companies may decide to have a certified workplace agreement under section 170LS of the workplace relations act.
To quote Lawrie Cox in this thread
If you have an operator in mind I suggest you provide the following to us:
Full Name of Company;
Trading Name if different;
Full address (not PO Box)
Type of AOC
Aircraft flown
Operation (GA - Fixed or Rotary, Aerial Ag, Regional Airline, etc.)
Please send to the AFAP
[email protected]
Lawrie Cox Industrial Officer AFAP
Full Name of Company;
Trading Name if different;
Full address (not PO Box)
Type of AOC
Aircraft flown
Operation (GA - Fixed or Rotary, Aerial Ag, Regional Airline, etc.)
Please send to the AFAP
[email protected]
Lawrie Cox Industrial Officer AFAP