We WILL be slugged another $200 for a new CASA Licence!
Once again, common sense isn't so common.
Here am I, born and bred in Oz, served in Her Majesty's Service, defending this country, been part of this country's aviation industry for over 35 years, held an ASIC card for quite a few years and now have to jump through the hoops like a newbie.
Ah... bureaucracy.........where would we be without Fort Fumble
Here am I, born and bred in Oz, served in Her Majesty's Service, defending this country, been part of this country's aviation industry for over 35 years, held an ASIC card for quite a few years and now have to jump through the hoops like a newbie.
Ah... bureaucracy.........where would we be without Fort Fumble
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Hi guys,
This is also being discussed on the YSSY message board:
http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic.php?t=6853
Personally I have written to my local member, got the standard bureaucratic cr@p back from John Anderson... so have a few letters here to send to Mark Latham and the Shadow Ministers for Transport and Homeland Security tomorrow. We need to kick up a stink about it if we are to have any chance of stopping yet another rediculous tax disguised as a 'security' measure!!!
Adam
This is also being discussed on the YSSY message board:
http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic.php?t=6853
Personally I have written to my local member, got the standard bureaucratic cr@p back from John Anderson... so have a few letters here to send to Mark Latham and the Shadow Ministers for Transport and Homeland Security tomorrow. We need to kick up a stink about it if we are to have any chance of stopping yet another rediculous tax disguised as a 'security' measure!!!
Adam
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And I thought it was just the U.K. that was fast becoming the "police state".
I just validated my U.K. licence for a CASA one last December so I could fly into Avalon 2005........if I understand correctly, my $50 piece of paper is now worthless and in a two week trip to Melbourne, will never get security cleared to fly anywhere.
What is access going to be like at say Moorabbin to go up with an instructor?
And hey, what happens to passengers
I just validated my U.K. licence for a CASA one last December so I could fly into Avalon 2005........if I understand correctly, my $50 piece of paper is now worthless and in a two week trip to Melbourne, will never get security cleared to fly anywhere.
What is access going to be like at say Moorabbin to go up with an instructor?
And hey, what happens to passengers
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Just received a [very late] reply to my initial email to John Anderson from his "Surface Transport Advisor," Zoe Wilson.
A page and a half of what was basically a re-statement of the policy on the website.
So the 2000+ persons who have browsed this post -- IT IS REAL, it IS coming, you WILL be up for roughly $200 for a new licence in July.
Here it is...
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Transport and Regional Services, Leader of the Nationals
11 March 2004
Dear Mr [ITCZ]
Thank you for your letter of 12 February 2004 to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Transport and Regional Services, the Hon John Anderson MP, concerning new pilot licensing requirements that include a thorough background checking of pilots. Mr Anderson has asked me to reply on his behalf. I regret the delay in replying.
Aviation security is kept under constant review to ensure that measures remain appropriate to current intelligence on threats to Australian aviation. Most recently, there was a comprehensive review of aviation security following a revised threat assessment issued by the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation in July 2003.
As a result of this review, on 4 December 2003 Mr Anderson announced a major expansion of the nation's aviation security regime. As a part of the expansion, background checking has been extended to a larger part of the aviation industry in recognition of the nature and levelof the threat. The threat assessment has highlighted pilot identification as an important issue that must be addressed as part of aviation security requirements in Australia. Ensuring that pilots and trainee pilots are subject to security checking will reduce the likelihood of persons who might pose a threat to aviation gaining access to aircraft through legitimate means, such as undergoing training and progressing through other licensing requirements. This measure will complement the new [
ITCZ] credit card style pilot licences with embedded photographs, which will offer a higher level of security.
Whilst I appreciate the concerns you raise regarding costs, the Australian Government maintains that the costs of security measures are the responsibility of owners or operators of aircraft and airports. The licence fee for pilots will be determined on a cost-recovery basis. The Department of Transport and Regional Services will be consulting with industry organisations in designing the detailed implementation of these measures, including on the matters you raise in your letter.
The Australian Government recognises that extending the aviation security regulatory framework to additional aviation participants, and pilots in particular, imposes new obligations that may create some inconvenience and add some costs in conducting aviation activities, be they business or hobby-related. I would want to emphasise that the Australian Government has only implemented these measures after careful consideration of the information available to it. The requirements are a necessary part of a comprehensive and reasoned approach to increasing the security of the aviation sector in a changing global environment.
I should also emphasise that the Australian Government is grateful for your general support of the measures being implemented to protect the community from parties that may have ambitions to unlawfully interfere with aviation.
Thank you for bringing this matter to the attention of the Minister.
Yours Sincerely
[signed]
Zoe Wilson
Surface Transport Adviser
Some interesting bits for me are.....
New credit-card style pilot licence...
Where have I heard that before? Will they have room to print all the "ICAO Compliance" information that presently takes 6 x A6 pages?
The licence fee for pilots will be determined on a cost-recovery basis.... versus the measures being implemented to protect the community from parties that may have intentions.....
I am personally quite sick of hearing this tired 1980's era Thatcheresque/Reaganesque user pays cant. A small section of the community is forced to 'build a fence' as it were to protect the community at large. I pay, everybody else benefits. I am not the user, I am being USED!!
...will be consulting with industry in designing the detailed implementation....
I have heard nothing from my company, from CASA or AirServices, and LC at the AFAP has not been approached. So which 'industry' people are they talking to?
But mainly, I will be replying to Ms Wilson to say that the main question I had for the Minister remains unanswered -- that is,
Dear Ms Wilson - Why Should We Pay Twice?
A page and a half of what was basically a re-statement of the policy on the website.
So the 2000+ persons who have browsed this post -- IT IS REAL, it IS coming, you WILL be up for roughly $200 for a new licence in July.
Here it is...
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Transport and Regional Services, Leader of the Nationals
11 March 2004
Dear Mr [ITCZ]
Thank you for your letter of 12 February 2004 to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Transport and Regional Services, the Hon John Anderson MP, concerning new pilot licensing requirements that include a thorough background checking of pilots. Mr Anderson has asked me to reply on his behalf. I regret the delay in replying.
Aviation security is kept under constant review to ensure that measures remain appropriate to current intelligence on threats to Australian aviation. Most recently, there was a comprehensive review of aviation security following a revised threat assessment issued by the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation in July 2003.
As a result of this review, on 4 December 2003 Mr Anderson announced a major expansion of the nation's aviation security regime. As a part of the expansion, background checking has been extended to a larger part of the aviation industry in recognition of the nature and levelof the threat. The threat assessment has highlighted pilot identification as an important issue that must be addressed as part of aviation security requirements in Australia. Ensuring that pilots and trainee pilots are subject to security checking will reduce the likelihood of persons who might pose a threat to aviation gaining access to aircraft through legitimate means, such as undergoing training and progressing through other licensing requirements. This measure will complement the new [
ITCZ] credit card style pilot licences with embedded photographs, which will offer a higher level of security.Whilst I appreciate the concerns you raise regarding costs, the Australian Government maintains that the costs of security measures are the responsibility of owners or operators of aircraft and airports. The licence fee for pilots will be determined on a cost-recovery basis. The Department of Transport and Regional Services will be consulting with industry organisations in designing the detailed implementation of these measures, including on the matters you raise in your letter.
The Australian Government recognises that extending the aviation security regulatory framework to additional aviation participants, and pilots in particular, imposes new obligations that may create some inconvenience and add some costs in conducting aviation activities, be they business or hobby-related. I would want to emphasise that the Australian Government has only implemented these measures after careful consideration of the information available to it. The requirements are a necessary part of a comprehensive and reasoned approach to increasing the security of the aviation sector in a changing global environment.
I should also emphasise that the Australian Government is grateful for your general support of the measures being implemented to protect the community from parties that may have ambitions to unlawfully interfere with aviation.
Thank you for bringing this matter to the attention of the Minister.
Yours Sincerely
[signed]
Zoe Wilson
Surface Transport Adviser
Some interesting bits for me are.....
New credit-card style pilot licence...
Where have I heard that before? Will they have room to print all the "ICAO Compliance" information that presently takes 6 x A6 pages?
The licence fee for pilots will be determined on a cost-recovery basis.... versus the measures being implemented to protect the community from parties that may have intentions.....
I am personally quite sick of hearing this tired 1980's era Thatcheresque/Reaganesque user pays cant. A small section of the community is forced to 'build a fence' as it were to protect the community at large. I pay, everybody else benefits. I am not the user, I am being USED!!
...will be consulting with industry in designing the detailed implementation....
I have heard nothing from my company, from CASA or AirServices, and LC at the AFAP has not been approached. So which 'industry' people are they talking to?
But mainly, I will be replying to Ms Wilson to say that the main question I had for the Minister remains unanswered -- that is,
Dear Ms Wilson - Why Should We Pay Twice?
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in all fairness.......
In all fairness, anyone who drives any sort of transport whether it be a GA aircraft, glider, ultralight, hot air balloon, truck, motorbike or car should indergo the same security checks. Yhis is a blatant form of discrimination - maybe the aviation fraternity should discriminate against Mr Anderson and his family by not allowing them anywhere neart an airport let a lone onto an aircraft! Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Yea, about the same amount of stupid this latest cockeyed idea is. Can this be taken to the equal opportunity commission?
Extract from RRP update. No 4 2003.
Here is an extract from the RRP Update newsletter from late 2003.
So in other words Mr Anderson shot off his mouth about what he was going to do about Aviation safety with regard to new licences without his DOTARS advisors actually speaking to any CASA Licensing people about the legislation and implications.
Here we are at the end of March with no indication of how this will be made to work in July, 3 months away!
Flight Crew Licensing Standards Sub-commitee
The sub-commitee sought SCC (Standards Consultative Commitee) determination on:
The potential for the delay in the issue of pilot licences as a result of new security requirements. The SCC were advised by CASA that the new licences would have a photograph and the security checks including Police records, Political Motivated Violence, and an Immigration check. The SCC agreed the DOTARS would organise a member from the Flight Crew licensing Standards sub commitee to meet with the Security Council to pass on the sub-commitees concerns and explain the potential cost to industry.
The sub-commitee sought SCC (Standards Consultative Commitee) determination on:
The potential for the delay in the issue of pilot licences as a result of new security requirements. The SCC were advised by CASA that the new licences would have a photograph and the security checks including Police records, Political Motivated Violence, and an Immigration check. The SCC agreed the DOTARS would organise a member from the Flight Crew licensing Standards sub commitee to meet with the Security Council to pass on the sub-commitees concerns and explain the potential cost to industry.
Here we are at the end of March with no indication of how this will be made to work in July, 3 months away!
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Well I personally refuse to take part in this nonsense. I will not be held to ransom by an unthinking government that is meant to be representing the majority, not some hairbrained idea of an individual. How many times to these people have to be told and by how many people, that this is simply irresponsable use of money that we are being railroaded into spending with little or no consultation from the industry.
I will continue to fly my aircraft that I am currently allowed to fly untill I am jailed and make a Public noise about this lunacy.
I would be all for it if it made any differance at all to anyones safety, but it won't make one iota of differance to anybloodything.
these people need to realise that they were voted into power by the people, to represent the peoples wishes. thats what a democratic government is all about.
I will continue to fly my aircraft that I am currently allowed to fly untill I am jailed and make a Public noise about this lunacy.
I would be all for it if it made any differance at all to anyones safety, but it won't make one iota of differance to anybloodything.
these people need to realise that they were voted into power by the people, to represent the peoples wishes. thats what a democratic government is all about.
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>I would want to emphasise that the Australian Government has only implemented these measures after careful consideration of the information available to it.
-just like they did before invading Iraq?
Wizard: hear, hear... now all we need to do is get more people doing it!
adam
-just like they did before invading Iraq?
Wizard: hear, hear... now all we need to do is get more people doing it!
adam
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It's only money?
I don't like it either, but I see a irony in the fact that this happened with the NZ CAA, ( It is called user pay's) and in the end, the industry just bent over and let the CAA have its way, the industry was so scared "****eless" of upsetting the personalities they had to work with within the department. The only interest the (companies/Employer's) has is in making money and if it doesn't concern the above then they won't say boo, ( I do seem to remember Air NZ refusing to pay the increased landing charges at Wellington) .
Wouldn't it be really great if the industry workers could all agree to keep the Aluminium on the ground for a day, but I gues pipe dreams are free aye wot?, the NZ CAA has become a world leader in the USER pay system, and is constantly amending rules and coming up with New rules, and then charging the industry for the compliance cost's, and guess what , they show a profit? they must be on the right track????
What you can look forward to is more of the same with rewrites of regs, instructor ratings, RPT compliance, aerial work compliance,
"****e" they even invent rules, just to create a profit, and you think I am kidding???????.
They even pay fee's to "industry Professionals" to validate their reasons to change things and re-invent the wheel?.
They have " THINK TANKS" and working groups dedicated to come up with ways to charge more, you still think I am kidding , yeah right??????.
****e they even use SAFETY as a issue with which to make money.
A cynic, or a realist, I don't know which I am either, it is getting hard to stay in the flying game, I still enjoy the flying, but I am really these last few years getting to hate what, was once a proud industry. I was once so proud to be a pilot, now as I struggle to finish out my flying career over the next few years I just see myself as a WHORE
And the IRONY of IRONY is the people doing this are or once were just as keen on aeroplanes as the rest of us.
Add to you flight case a tube of K-Y Gel, you are going to need it , and you can probably even claim it against your tax. As I say realist or cynic, you decide.
Let the replies tear me apart over this, I would love, just love to mention some names and statements made by so called policy makers.
BRING IT ON you useless mother ******* in the departments.
Wouldn't it be really great if the industry workers could all agree to keep the Aluminium on the ground for a day, but I gues pipe dreams are free aye wot?, the NZ CAA has become a world leader in the USER pay system, and is constantly amending rules and coming up with New rules, and then charging the industry for the compliance cost's, and guess what , they show a profit? they must be on the right track????
What you can look forward to is more of the same with rewrites of regs, instructor ratings, RPT compliance, aerial work compliance,
"****e" they even invent rules, just to create a profit, and you think I am kidding???????.
They even pay fee's to "industry Professionals" to validate their reasons to change things and re-invent the wheel?.
They have " THINK TANKS" and working groups dedicated to come up with ways to charge more, you still think I am kidding , yeah right??????.
****e they even use SAFETY as a issue with which to make money.
A cynic, or a realist, I don't know which I am either, it is getting hard to stay in the flying game, I still enjoy the flying, but I am really these last few years getting to hate what, was once a proud industry. I was once so proud to be a pilot, now as I struggle to finish out my flying career over the next few years I just see myself as a WHORE
And the IRONY of IRONY is the people doing this are or once were just as keen on aeroplanes as the rest of us.
Add to you flight case a tube of K-Y Gel, you are going to need it , and you can probably even claim it against your tax.
As I say realist or cynic, you decide.Let the replies tear me apart over this, I would love, just love to mention some names and statements made by so called policy makers.
BRING IT ON you useless mother ******* in the departments.
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So... what happens to me if I am stuck in ,say Birdsville, for two years and cannot get to a CASA office for a new licence ? AM I no longer safe to fly ?
What happens when I get my new licence ? Am I supposed to display it at all times... just like an ASIC card ?... along with wings, ASIC, W@nker bars and name tag... we are all going to look like Libyan Generals!
If we DON'T have to display it... then what is the point of it ? The only time I have ever been asked for my licence is when I have started work with a new company. I have never been challenged on the tarmac, and asked to produce my licence.
BIG BROTHER WANTS TO WATCH YOU!!!!.. and make YOU pay for the priviledge
What happens when I get my new licence ? Am I supposed to display it at all times... just like an ASIC card ?... along with wings, ASIC, W@nker bars and name tag... we are all going to look like Libyan Generals!
If we DON'T have to display it... then what is the point of it ? The only time I have ever been asked for my licence is when I have started work with a new company. I have never been challenged on the tarmac, and asked to produce my licence.
BIG BROTHER WANTS TO WATCH YOU!!!!.. and make YOU pay for the priviledge
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s, the Australian Government maintains that the costs of security measures are the responsibility of owners or operators of aircraft and airports.
so we work to rule. we all refusre to pay, we dont ket our cards/checks tax receipt, and as a result, we are all declared unsafe to fly aircraft.
wonder how long before the decision is reversed if the Entire aviation indusrty remains grounded! (every aircraft in Australian territory)
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the Australian Government maintains that the costs of security measures are the responsibility of owners or operators of aircraft and airports
GA gets no subsidies but is required to pay for 'easily visible' anti-theft' measures.
http://www.dotars.gov.au/transsec
http://www.dotars.gov.au/transsec/Re...ct_sheet1.aspx
The licence fee for pilots will be determined on a cost-recovery basis.
about you ?
Last edited by Biggles_in_Oz; 4th Dec 2004 at 00:22.
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Had enough
That's it, I'm going overseas to work........
Stuff them. I'm not paying that. I'd convert my license to a banana republic one if they'll ground me.
If they say this has something to do with Australia's security, then why dont they take it out of the defense and security budget.
I'm telling you, this is just a blatant excuse for a revenue raising exercise by them. Next thing you know, they'll charge you for breathing the air.
F#@*K them.
Stuff them. I'm not paying that. I'd convert my license to a banana republic one if they'll ground me.
If they say this has something to do with Australia's security, then why dont they take it out of the defense and security budget.
I'm telling you, this is just a blatant excuse for a revenue raising exercise by them. Next thing you know, they'll charge you for breathing the air.
F#@*K them.
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New Photo Licence
I just saw my first photo licence - what a flipping joke! It is paper covered in plastic, it is not waterproof and is the poorest possible example you could ever expect to see - kids in kinder could have done it better.
As I see it, CASA only had to have all the reviews (security) conducted and then issue an authorisation to the licence holder to go to their local RTA office and have a photo licence issued similar to the car licence. CASA would only have had to issue the blanks to the RTA. As there are RTA's (or similar) right throughout Australia in every state and usually within easy reach of most of us, this would have been the far better option instead of the scappy little bit of paper that they are issuing now. The RTA type licence could have doubled as an ID card for access to airports and associated places......what a wasted opportuntiy!
As I see it, CASA only had to have all the reviews (security) conducted and then issue an authorisation to the licence holder to go to their local RTA office and have a photo licence issued similar to the car licence. CASA would only have had to issue the blanks to the RTA. As there are RTA's (or similar) right throughout Australia in every state and usually within easy reach of most of us, this would have been the far better option instead of the scappy little bit of paper that they are issuing now. The RTA type licence could have doubled as an ID card for access to airports and associated places......what a wasted opportuntiy!
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.THREE GREENS
CASA only had to have all the checks conducted and then direct the licence holder to go to their local RTA office and have a photo licence issued similar to the car licence. CASA would only have had to print templates on the licence paper they already use and issue the blanks to the RTA. As there are RTA's (or similar) right throughout Australia in every state and usually within easy reach of most of us. The RTA type licence could have doubled as an ID card for access to airports and associated places......it was an effective cost saving opportuntiy!
I have personally made this suggestion to both the bankstown office and the canberra office in 2001 and again in 2003.
the response from office staff on both occasions were facial expressions that implied i should be swinging from tree branches and eating banana's.
As you said what a wasted opportunity for (1) initial cost saving for CASA (2) standardising aircrew identification at ALL airports australia wide (3) fixing the licence format once and for all (no more having to go back and forth between various green books/folders and card formats)
CASA only had to have all the checks conducted and then direct the licence holder to go to their local RTA office and have a photo licence issued similar to the car licence. CASA would only have had to print templates on the licence paper they already use and issue the blanks to the RTA. As there are RTA's (or similar) right throughout Australia in every state and usually within easy reach of most of us. The RTA type licence could have doubled as an ID card for access to airports and associated places......it was an effective cost saving opportuntiy!
I have personally made this suggestion to both the bankstown office and the canberra office in 2001 and again in 2003.
the response from office staff on both occasions were facial expressions that implied i should be swinging from tree branches and eating banana's.
As you said what a wasted opportunity for (1) initial cost saving for CASA (2) standardising aircrew identification at ALL airports australia wide (3) fixing the licence format once and for all (no more having to go back and forth between various green books/folders and card formats)
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I give up, i have sent 15 letters, 5 hand written and hand delivered, EVERY one came back with the same Identical response!
100 days have since past, and i still havnt seen my medical renewal
thats it for me, no more ARN number.
i havnt flown a VH rego aircraft now in 4 months! and only because of CASA and australias famous beaurocratic BULL****E!
on another thought, seeing as i have held a PPL for over 16 yrs, (my licence is a CAA Flight crew card!) and its perpetually valid, ex medical, does that mean i can still fly in CTA on my RAA ticket as my radio operators licence is still valid??
100 days have since past, and i still havnt seen my medical renewal
thats it for me, no more ARN number.
i havnt flown a VH rego aircraft now in 4 months! and only because of CASA and australias famous beaurocratic BULL****E!
on another thought, seeing as i have held a PPL for over 16 yrs, (my licence is a CAA Flight crew card!) and its perpetually valid, ex medical, does that mean i can still fly in CTA on my RAA ticket as my radio operators licence is still valid??
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thanks to everyone who signed the petition so far, it just passed the 300 mark. However, I would like it to say 3000+, so if you haven't signed it, or know someone who hasn't please let them know.
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Petition?
Hello PPRuNers
I've signed the petition but I cringed a little at some of the comments. Some of them were shockers - poorly written, bad grammar, words misspelt, etc. Some looked like the ravings of loonies - the bureaucrats and pollies who see the list will have a field day! One look at some of those rants will convince them that the entire industry is a menace that should be shut down as soon as possible.
Is there some way the comments can be excised or edited?
LTDT
I've signed the petition but I cringed a little at some of the comments. Some of them were shockers - poorly written, bad grammar, words misspelt, etc. Some looked like the ravings of loonies - the bureaucrats and pollies who see the list will have a field day! One look at some of those rants will convince them that the entire industry is a menace that should be shut down as soon as possible.
Is there some way the comments can be excised or edited?
LTDT