Short-field takeoff technique
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Australia
Short-field takeoff technique
G'day
I recently learnt the following short-field takeoff technique for the PA-44:
- full power runup brakes on
- everything in the green
- normal takeoff trim but full back pressure on yoke
- as soon as airborne reduce back pressure, gear up, accelerate and climb out at 82kts (Vx).
Like a Vmu test
Obviously there's no geometry problems with this aircraft and we didn't leave a trail of sparks (dirt) down the runway.
You could feel the nose wanting to come off almost immediately. The ground roll and take-off distance were very short. Quite impressive actually.
I was just wondering if this is normal procedure on other aircraft?
FYI this is the 1st twin i've flown and on all the singles i've flown the technique was 1st stage of flap and earlier rotation.
Rob.
I recently learnt the following short-field takeoff technique for the PA-44:
- full power runup brakes on
- everything in the green
- normal takeoff trim but full back pressure on yoke
- as soon as airborne reduce back pressure, gear up, accelerate and climb out at 82kts (Vx).
Like a Vmu test
Obviously there's no geometry problems with this aircraft and we didn't leave a trail of sparks (dirt) down the runway.You could feel the nose wanting to come off almost immediately. The ground roll and take-off distance were very short. Quite impressive actually.
I was just wondering if this is normal procedure on other aircraft?
FYI this is the 1st twin i've flown and on all the singles i've flown the technique was 1st stage of flap and earlier rotation.
Rob.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,704
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
be vewy vewy careful
Been a few years since I set foot in a Pa44, but is the technique in the flight manual? If so, fine, if not be very very careful, cos if you get it wrong, even just a bit and can walk away, then you might have some serious questions to answer.
The other thing to remember, presuming that it's a technique in the flight manual etc, is that it does not get you to the single engine best rate of climb speed any faster. Infact the opposite might be true.
CS
The other thing to remember, presuming that it's a technique in the flight manual etc, is that it does not get you to the single engine best rate of climb speed any faster. Infact the opposite might be true.
CS
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 477
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From: Australia
Sounds like fun being a test pilot. I dont recall reading about that technique in the POH.
You'll be lifting off near Vs and pulling up the gear not long after. I hope you dont experience any windsheer in the transition or you'll end up back on the runway with gear in transit (or up).
I'd love to explain that to the insurance company.
Remember most books takeoff safety speeds are based on 1.2 Vs with flaps up. Lifting off at a slower speed means you are reducing all margins of safety. If you approach the runway at just above Vs you will use less runway. Not very smart though.
With the above technique, what is the distance taken to climb over a 50ft obsticle? Not much different than the technique in the book I'd suspect.
Bevan..
You'll be lifting off near Vs and pulling up the gear not long after. I hope you dont experience any windsheer in the transition or you'll end up back on the runway with gear in transit (or up).
I'd love to explain that to the insurance company.
Remember most books takeoff safety speeds are based on 1.2 Vs with flaps up. Lifting off at a slower speed means you are reducing all margins of safety. If you approach the runway at just above Vs you will use less runway. Not very smart though.
With the above technique, what is the distance taken to climb over a 50ft obsticle? Not much different than the technique in the book I'd suspect.
Bevan..
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Australia
DA and stallie
The points you raise were exactly my concerns. Another concern was a little windshear could have some dire consequences.
Vmca = 56 kts.
Vyse = 88 kts.
To be honest i didn't notice what speed we lifted off at but it was quite slow.
Correct. The AFM suggests a technique similar to what i'm used to. I meant to mention that in the original post.
It is in fact the reason i'm asking. So has anyone else heard of this technique and what are people's thoughts? My thoughts are that it is just pushing the limits a bit...
The points you raise were exactly my concerns. Another concern was a little windshear could have some dire consequences.
Vmca = 56 kts.
Vyse = 88 kts.
To be honest i didn't notice what speed we lifted off at but it was quite slow.
I would suggest it wouldn't say what you've been told as the marging for error is pretty small.
It is in fact the reason i'm asking. So has anyone else heard of this technique and what are people's thoughts? My thoughts are that it is just pushing the limits a bit...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 587
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From: australia
Just to reitterate what has been already well said.
Use the POH and expect less than what it says in take off run etc.
Those figures have been printed for a reason.
You are very correct in wondering at this new test pilot short take off deal.
My advice... stay away from it ....... there are many variables in aviation, lets not make up new, interesting and potentially fatal ones.
Use the POH and expect less than what it says in take off run etc.
Those figures have been printed for a reason.
You are very correct in wondering at this new test pilot short take off deal.
My advice... stay away from it ....... there are many variables in aviation, lets not make up new, interesting and potentially fatal ones.
PPRuNe's Paramedic
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 322
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From: tropical north
Mr Piper already tested it...... and wrote the numbers for a new plane at ISA and as published... most aircraft have aged poorly, have tired engines, and airframes not quite as smick as they once were... the numbers get worse than the flight manual... Id want all the insurance in knots I could get, flying it like the manual says.
Props are for boats!
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: An Asian Hub
Its all relative really. Doesnt matter if your in a PA44 which I all but 10 hours or a King Air. If you select a small enough field you will constrain yourself and machine.
If you are going to practice short filed take offs ensure you have all escape routes covered. Clearway, obstacle clearance etc. etc. Because if per chance you end up wallowing around at VMCA or under, you need a plan of action. No planning is lunacy!
Remmember because your in a twin doesnt mean an automatic out. It most certainly with no performance means a controlled ditching. My colleagues in my Company operate at high altitudes in the Mid Asian region in king Airs. Even at high altitudes in King Air Im talking 8000 elevation airstrips, an engine failure on take off usually incorporates a ditching unless in excess of a V2 speed is achieved.
So what Ive mentioned above comes down to one letter "P" for performance. If you have "P" alls well then good but if you dont, alterior plans need to be made.
P for performance ladies and gentlemen has the last word. Recognising its demise or increase quickly is the key to survival.
my 2 cents worth
Sheep
P.S. If it aint in the book dont do it. Why? Because it aint documented means it aint been researched, which means insurance companies aint going to listen to your excuse.
If you are going to practice short filed take offs ensure you have all escape routes covered. Clearway, obstacle clearance etc. etc. Because if per chance you end up wallowing around at VMCA or under, you need a plan of action. No planning is lunacy!
Remmember because your in a twin doesnt mean an automatic out. It most certainly with no performance means a controlled ditching. My colleagues in my Company operate at high altitudes in the Mid Asian region in king Airs. Even at high altitudes in King Air Im talking 8000 elevation airstrips, an engine failure on take off usually incorporates a ditching unless in excess of a V2 speed is achieved.
So what Ive mentioned above comes down to one letter "P" for performance. If you have "P" alls well then good but if you dont, alterior plans need to be made.
P for performance ladies and gentlemen has the last word. Recognising its demise or increase quickly is the key to survival.
my 2 cents worth
Sheep
P.S. If it aint in the book dont do it. Why? Because it aint documented means it aint been researched, which means insurance companies aint going to listen to your excuse.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: East Coast of Oz
PA-44 Flt Manual
yeh i did my twin training in a seminole fairly recently and stuck to the book!! safest and really does get u the best performance (with that nice safety margin).....so the book says:
-Flaps up, trim takeoff range
-On the brakes
-Full power (greens)
-Accelerate to 70 kts (during this role we used to take up the strain so to speak by gradually increasing back pressure, this leeds to a nicer lift off
)
-Rotate firmly to achieve 75 kts thru 50ft
-accelerate to 82kts for obstacle clearance GEAR UP
-or- accelerate to 88kts if no obstacles GEAR UP
There is the allowance for a flap 25 short fielder which from memory i never did, never needed to.
cheers,
-Flaps up, trim takeoff range
-On the brakes
-Full power (greens)
-Accelerate to 70 kts (during this role we used to take up the strain so to speak by gradually increasing back pressure, this leeds to a nicer lift off
)-Rotate firmly to achieve 75 kts thru 50ft
-accelerate to 82kts for obstacle clearance GEAR UP
-or- accelerate to 88kts if no obstacles GEAR UP
There is the allowance for a flap 25 short fielder which from memory i never did, never needed to.
cheers,
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 509
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From: Albany, West Australia
For what it's worth, the original post mentioned full back stick from brakes off, which I think is the real weakness in the technique proposed.
All this achieves is a lot of drag from elevators initially, then from the wing as the AoA increases, but at well below Vs. It's unlikely this technique will give you fastest or shortest take-off.
As Curved Approach has mentioned - use the best lift flap setting as per the POH. This will give you a better performance, and safer too. (if there is no recommended t/o flap setting in the POH - then you are back in 'test pilot' mode.)
If you, as a genuine test pilot, wanted to try the flap technique, then you might try it this way. This suggestion attributed to very old bushie Aztec pilot met in 60's.
Apply full aileron in any direction, and lower flap to just a tad less than the full down aileron deflection - which will be near as to best flap setting for t/o. Return ailerons to neutral and conduct take-off as recomm. by Curved Approach
happy days
All this achieves is a lot of drag from elevators initially, then from the wing as the AoA increases, but at well below Vs. It's unlikely this technique will give you fastest or shortest take-off.
As Curved Approach has mentioned - use the best lift flap setting as per the POH. This will give you a better performance, and safer too. (if there is no recommended t/o flap setting in the POH - then you are back in 'test pilot' mode.)
If you, as a genuine test pilot, wanted to try the flap technique, then you might try it this way. This suggestion attributed to very old bushie Aztec pilot met in 60's.
Apply full aileron in any direction, and lower flap to just a tad less than the full down aileron deflection - which will be near as to best flap setting for t/o. Return ailerons to neutral and conduct take-off as recomm. by Curved Approach
happy days
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Australia
Dusted off my 1978 Seminole PA-44-180 Information Manual....
The technique you were shown is neither a soft/rough field procedure, nor a max performance takeoff procedure. Without a p-chart for that technique you nor I have any idea if it is REALLY better than the book technique.
Remember that it doesn't really matter to a professional pilot if the aeroplane can clear the obstacle both engines operating. You should be planning to clear it if the worst situation presents itself.
So...
Normal (recommended) takeoff procedure is zero flap. Manual states that this results in best flight configuration should EFATO occur.
Best takeoff performance (shortest distance to clear 50') achieved with Flap 25. Rotation at 63kt and climb at 67kt to the 50' height.
Compare this to the flap zero rotation of 75kt and BROC 88kt for normal TO.
Consider also that the procedure for EFATO with speed below 75kt is to close throttles and land ahead.
Should EFATO occur with Flap 25 set there is no climb performance information in the manual for the flap 25 configuration. All climb info is for Flap 0.
Guess its not a transport category aeroplane then!
So what does it all mean?
If you are obstacle limited, first do your charts on a flap zero takeoff and see if you have enough runway. Don't drag the stick into your gut, that's not the technique in the manual.
If you need to use flap 25 to clear the 50' obstacle, where are you going to put it down if you lose a donk after takeoff and prior to 75kts? Have a plan, my 2c worth, pick out somewhere long, clear and smooth within 30 degrees of runway heading.
If you are trying to get airborne from a soft or rough field, don't do it if you are also obstacle limited. Your technique has you spending a LONG time in that no-mans-land of being airborne, possibly below the 57kt Vmca and nowhere near Vyse.
I have been told and had shown to me, lots of different 'techniques' that the other guy thought were quite clever or fun or impressive, but really were flawed as to -- why would you use them?
I think your mates demo might be one of them.
The technique you were shown is neither a soft/rough field procedure, nor a max performance takeoff procedure. Without a p-chart for that technique you nor I have any idea if it is REALLY better than the book technique.
Remember that it doesn't really matter to a professional pilot if the aeroplane can clear the obstacle both engines operating. You should be planning to clear it if the worst situation presents itself.
So...
Normal (recommended) takeoff procedure is zero flap. Manual states that this results in best flight configuration should EFATO occur.
Best takeoff performance (shortest distance to clear 50') achieved with Flap 25. Rotation at 63kt and climb at 67kt to the 50' height.
Compare this to the flap zero rotation of 75kt and BROC 88kt for normal TO.
Consider also that the procedure for EFATO with speed below 75kt is to close throttles and land ahead.
Should EFATO occur with Flap 25 set there is no climb performance information in the manual for the flap 25 configuration. All climb info is for Flap 0.
Guess its not a transport category aeroplane then!
So what does it all mean?
If you are obstacle limited, first do your charts on a flap zero takeoff and see if you have enough runway. Don't drag the stick into your gut, that's not the technique in the manual.
If you need to use flap 25 to clear the 50' obstacle, where are you going to put it down if you lose a donk after takeoff and prior to 75kts? Have a plan, my 2c worth, pick out somewhere long, clear and smooth within 30 degrees of runway heading.
If you are trying to get airborne from a soft or rough field, don't do it if you are also obstacle limited. Your technique has you spending a LONG time in that no-mans-land of being airborne, possibly below the 57kt Vmca and nowhere near Vyse.
I have been told and had shown to me, lots of different 'techniques' that the other guy thought were quite clever or fun or impressive, but really were flawed as to -- why would you use them?
I think your mates demo might be one of them.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Australia
OK....i've been waiting for replies from a few different people. Thanks for the input. Now just to clarify and acknowledge a couple of points....
- It's good to have another technique in the old sky rocket, but it's a technique which I will leave as the last resort. Totally agree with everyone's comments re: sticking to the flight manual.
- I'm well aware of the dangers associated with light twins. Performance figures offered in AFMs are under ideal conditions with perfect pilots and new aircraft - realistically a rare situation, so why push it?
- There's been a couple of mentions of insurance companies, which although valid points, I don't think is the real issue.
And finally, ITCZ
I get the impression you think this was me and a buddy out being idiots. Perhaps I should have clarified earlier, this wasn't some manhood comparing exercise, but a technique shown to me by my instructor during training. And i think you and GoNorth may be correct re: soft/rough field takeoff technique, perhaps that's what was being demonstrated.
Anyway, thankyou everyone for the replies, this pprune thing really is a great resource!
Cheers
Rob.
- It's good to have another technique in the old sky rocket, but it's a technique which I will leave as the last resort. Totally agree with everyone's comments re: sticking to the flight manual.
- I'm well aware of the dangers associated with light twins. Performance figures offered in AFMs are under ideal conditions with perfect pilots and new aircraft - realistically a rare situation, so why push it?
- There's been a couple of mentions of insurance companies, which although valid points, I don't think is the real issue.
And finally, ITCZ
I have been told and had shown to me, lots of different 'techniques' that the other guy thought were quite clever or fun or impressive, but really were flawed as to -- why would you use them?
Anyway, thankyou everyone for the replies, this pprune thing really is a great resource!
Cheers
Rob.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,704
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
There's been a couple of mentions of insurance companies, which although valid points, I don't think is the real issue.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Over 250 posts so far. Perhaps I support Pprune by posting regularly.
ROB-x38, in a slightly different direction, all I can add to the good material already posted is that a rough or short field technique is naturally going to be carried out on some sort of, well, rough field.
The point is, be careful when running up the power at a standstill. The vortices around the prop may lift the small stones found on an unprepared surface into the propellor arc with resultant damage to the leading edges of the blades. The damage can be filed away (by a LAME?? Pilot?? not sure about pilot, good CPL theory question, I suppose) but only so far.
Hope you find that useful !
The point is, be careful when running up the power at a standstill. The vortices around the prop may lift the small stones found on an unprepared surface into the propellor arc with resultant damage to the leading edges of the blades. The damage can be filed away (by a LAME?? Pilot?? not sure about pilot, good CPL theory question, I suppose) but only so far.
Hope you find that useful !
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: East Coast of Oz
Exactly.....re-read the posts carefully!!!!!!!! That technique of full backstick is not anywhere in the manual and for all we know could be resulting in worse TOR and worse TODR!! ITCZ is right in all of what he says. Plues the seminole is a fairly poor performer really and to add to that with a flap 25 take-off!
And i quote my 1978 manual page 4-19 (revised july 24, 1981
)
I guess if it works for you... but from my experience it does leave me thinking riiiight, cant you ask your instructor or whoever showed you this if it was a soft field technique that they use?? by all means on a soft field mayb about half to three quarter backstick when you are gettign the aeroplane moving ... maybe this is why you could feel the nose wheel rising and wanting to fly as it was just coming out of the soft field 
And i quote my 1978 manual page 4-19 (revised july 24, 1981
)
The performance shown on charts will be reduced by uphill gradient......rough or grassy surface, OR POOR PILOT TECHNIQUE"
but from my experience it does leave me thinking riiiight, cant you ask your instructor or whoever showed you this if it was a soft field technique that they use?? by all means on a soft field mayb about half to three quarter backstick when you are gettign the aeroplane moving ... maybe this is why you could feel the nose wheel rising and wanting to fly as it was just coming out of the soft field
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Australia
Rob, fear not. If I was sledging you, you would not need to guess Just ask Kaptin M or AirNoServices, etc!
No ridicule intended.
Perhaps it would be better for me to say, that a healthy skepticism is a good quality in a pro pilot.
We are in an occupation where we are playing with our own life and that of passengers. Technique not in flight manual? Not necessarily wrong, but be suspicious.
In this instance, I think you should get back to your instructor and get him to show concrete facts to support the technique he is teaching.
Imagine yourself in a court of enquiry one day. One or more judges running the show. A $2000/hr lawyer asking you 'And this technique, Capt Rob, which technical document did you base it on...?
Like I said, no ridicule intended.
Another thing that bothers me --
but it's a technique which I will leave as the last resort
Unless you are being pursued by crazed Moro tribesmen that are going to feed you your own scrotum, then kill you, I can't think of a suitable time to use a 'last resort' takeoff technique.
Maybe i have misunderstood your choice of words, but sometimes, you just don't launch. Thats the job. When to go, when to wait, when to try another angle, when to dig your heels in and say "No, not today, not on my licence."
For your own benefit, get an exact understanding of what this technique means in terms of TOD, TOR, Vs, Vmca, time spent accelerating to Vyse, RoC, EFATO considerations, the whole lot.
FWIW, good thread.
Just ask Kaptin M or AirNoServices, etc! No ridicule intended.
Perhaps it would be better for me to say, that a healthy skepticism is a good quality in a pro pilot.
We are in an occupation where we are playing with our own life and that of passengers. Technique not in flight manual? Not necessarily wrong, but be suspicious.
In this instance, I think you should get back to your instructor and get him to show concrete facts to support the technique he is teaching.
Imagine yourself in a court of enquiry one day. One or more judges running the show. A $2000/hr lawyer asking you 'And this technique, Capt Rob, which technical document did you base it on...?
Like I said, no ridicule intended.
Another thing that bothers me --
but it's a technique which I will leave as the last resort
Unless you are being pursued by crazed Moro tribesmen that are going to feed you your own scrotum, then kill you, I can't think of a suitable time to use a 'last resort' takeoff technique.
Maybe i have misunderstood your choice of words, but sometimes, you just don't launch. Thats the job. When to go, when to wait, when to try another angle, when to dig your heels in and say "No, not today, not on my licence."
For your own benefit, get an exact understanding of what this technique means in terms of TOD, TOR, Vs, Vmca, time spent accelerating to Vyse, RoC, EFATO considerations, the whole lot.
FWIW, good thread.
Last edited by ITCZ; 3rd February 2004 at 17:13.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 126
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From: Australia
Definitely appreciate all the replies, you've got the cogs turning. I think it's clear that i'm a low hour pilot in the thick of my training and learning all the time. With all the AFM bashing (esp. re: engine handling) it's sometimes difficult to distinguish the good from the bad.
So basically the 2 main dangers with deviating from the flight manual with takeoff/landing procedures are:
- reduced safety margin (in this case)
- who knows how it will perform.
ie: sticking to the manual at least you know where you stand.
Agreed, that was a bad choice of words. Of course you should never be in a situation which requires using this technique. It's the old "A superior pilot uses superior knowledge and airmanship to avoid using superior skills." ie: I should of known there was a crazy scrotum-feeding tribe in the area and not stopped in the first place
Cheers
Rob.
So basically the 2 main dangers with deviating from the flight manual with takeoff/landing procedures are:
- reduced safety margin (in this case)
- who knows how it will perform.
ie: sticking to the manual at least you know where you stand.
Unless you are being pursued by crazed Moro tribesmen that are going to feed you your own scrotum, then kill you, I can't think of a suitable time to use a 'last resort' takeoff technique.
Cheers
Rob.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: S37.54 E145.11
John Deakin's Views
An article by John Deakin "Short and Soft Field Take offs - FAA vs Reality" may also be most relevant to this topic. Go to:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182089-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182089-1.html