A Question for you "Heavy Drivers"
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
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A Question for you "Heavy Drivers"
I've just come back home from a holiday up on the whitsundays. On the way up from Sydney you have to stop off at Brisbane and catch the connecting aircraft to proserpine. Which actually took us to Cairns because of a faulty Generator. I assumed they didnt want to land at Proserpine because the aircraft would be grounded and no faciltiys at proserpine to get it repaired.
Anyways the question which I'm trying to ask is... When doing a landing off a visual approach compared to a landing off an ILS I noticed the actual touch down was a big difference. When we landed at Brizzy we came in off a pretty short right base and i noticed that when we touched down the wing tips almost hit the tarmac aswell and the same when we finally arrived at proserpine. However when we went into cairns the landing off the ILS was superb. Is this because of the Autopilot flying the plane on the correct glide path all the way down to 250ft and setting the plane up correctly or is it just coincidence that every time we conducted a visual approach i.e Pilot actually flying the plane all the way down he simple cocked it up??
And do you guys have to report hard landings, and what constitutes a hard landing??
Thanks
Anyways the question which I'm trying to ask is... When doing a landing off a visual approach compared to a landing off an ILS I noticed the actual touch down was a big difference. When we landed at Brizzy we came in off a pretty short right base and i noticed that when we touched down the wing tips almost hit the tarmac aswell and the same when we finally arrived at proserpine. However when we went into cairns the landing off the ILS was superb. Is this because of the Autopilot flying the plane on the correct glide path all the way down to 250ft and setting the plane up correctly or is it just coincidence that every time we conducted a visual approach i.e Pilot actually flying the plane all the way down he simple cocked it up??
And do you guys have to report hard landings, and what constitutes a hard landing??
Thanks
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Ive done some crackers at the end of an ILS. On the other hand some good-uns off a circuit!
We have an indication on the screens that is more or less a pseudo-ILS (except that it is only good for vertical position)that the aircraft generates from the threshold back to your current position. Providing the waypoint selected is in front of you (ie you don't set up a 5 mile final and turn inside that point) it's a good indication on how you're going on the turn for a visual approach till you're on the VASI's/PAPI's.
As for what constitutes a hard landing............ well you don't want to see the pax dodging the oxy masks on their way out!!
hope this helped
Tag
We have an indication on the screens that is more or less a pseudo-ILS (except that it is only good for vertical position)that the aircraft generates from the threshold back to your current position. Providing the waypoint selected is in front of you (ie you don't set up a 5 mile final and turn inside that point) it's a good indication on how you're going on the turn for a visual approach till you're on the VASI's/PAPI's.
As for what constitutes a hard landing............ well you don't want to see the pax dodging the oxy masks on their way out!!
hope this helped
Tag
Nunc est bibendum
What was the cross wind like?
Sometimes that can make a difference to both the quality of touch down and the angle of bank (depending on how well the pilot is doing on that day!).
Personally, my landings have little to do with what approach I've flown and more to do with how hard I'm working at the time. Sure, sometimes the visual approach into BNE on 19 with a screaming tailwind on base was kind of interesting and other times it was a doddle. Whether on a visual or ILS, I'll still disconnect by 1000' and often a LOT earlier. SYD on a VMC day for 34L from Melbourne I disconnect downwind to enjoy myself. Other days I may leave it hooked up until 1000'. Depends on the day, time of day, work load, tiredness level, weather, etc, etc.
Sometimes that can make a difference to both the quality of touch down and the angle of bank (depending on how well the pilot is doing on that day!).
Personally, my landings have little to do with what approach I've flown and more to do with how hard I'm working at the time. Sure, sometimes the visual approach into BNE on 19 with a screaming tailwind on base was kind of interesting and other times it was a doddle. Whether on a visual or ILS, I'll still disconnect by 1000' and often a LOT earlier. SYD on a VMC day for 34L from Melbourne I disconnect downwind to enjoy myself. Other days I may leave it hooked up until 1000'. Depends on the day, time of day, work load, tiredness level, weather, etc, etc.
Nunc est bibendum
IG, currently QF F/Os don't get a choice! The A/P MUST be disconnected by 1000' when on an ILS approach. On a NPA, it can be left in until below minima. Ironic then that I can fly a LOC/DME approach on 34L in Syd to the minima of 500' on A/P but can't leave the thing coupled up to the G/S until the same alitude.
Those rules are due to change in late January, early Feb but they've been the rules for at least the last nine years!
Those rules are due to change in late January, early Feb but they've been the rules for at least the last nine years!
Props are for boats!
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Ineresting way of doing it Keg. But theres nothing wrong with Clicking the disconect when at the minima is there? Or am I missing something in Big Jets, that we in Tiny Turbines do naturally? So whats the procedure for a CAT3 approach then the same? I know there aint any Oz but what about international ops?
Sheep
Sheep
In nearly six years of flying a 747, I've done only four visual approaches.
Three on my very first three landings - the base check - and the last in 2000 at Khartoumb in The Sudan. THe runway there has no ILS & no VASI, PAPI, etc.
We normally fly the ILS right down to 200' then go visual for the last little bit. Even on a totally clear day.
I'll normally hand-fly the plane up to about 10,000' or so, sometimes less in bad weather so we can both sit back & monitor what's going on. On approach in bad weather I'll leave the autopilot in right down to the minima, again for the reason of monitoring what's going on. On a good day I'll normally intercept the ILS hand-flying and often a few thousand feet before that.
There's no difference in the landing from either.
Three on my very first three landings - the base check - and the last in 2000 at Khartoumb in The Sudan. THe runway there has no ILS & no VASI, PAPI, etc.
We normally fly the ILS right down to 200' then go visual for the last little bit. Even on a totally clear day.
I'll normally hand-fly the plane up to about 10,000' or so, sometimes less in bad weather so we can both sit back & monitor what's going on. On approach in bad weather I'll leave the autopilot in right down to the minima, again for the reason of monitoring what's going on. On a good day I'll normally intercept the ILS hand-flying and often a few thousand feet before that.
There's no difference in the landing from either.
Sheep Guts
For our operation and I would imagine for others, Cat 3A & 3B are auto land procedures, especially with some 3B's as there isn’t a decision height and RVR only needs to be 75 meters for the touchdown and midpoint zones of the runway.
So whats the procedure for a CAT3 approach then the same?
Nunc est bibendum
Some of the older timers than me reckon there was an interesting history to it coming about.
Apparently, there was some concern years ago (and I don't know when) about F/Os skills degrading because too many were leaving the A/P in until minima. So, the then FOPAM was changed to say something like 'F/Os should' or F/Os are encouraged or words that left it a bit ambiguous. After a few amendments over e period of years, it got changed to 'F/Os shall'. It's a bit like that monkey analogy where eventually, no one knows why they are doing it, they just know that they are! I'll try and find that one. It's a classic!
Apparently, there was some concern years ago (and I don't know when) about F/Os skills degrading because too many were leaving the A/P in until minima. So, the then FOPAM was changed to say something like 'F/Os should' or F/Os are encouraged or words that left it a bit ambiguous. After a few amendments over e period of years, it got changed to 'F/Os shall'. It's a bit like that monkey analogy where eventually, no one knows why they are doing it, they just know that they are! I'll try and find that one. It's a classic!
Keg - Like the rhetorical question some of the older Captains used to ask the younger FO's ->
"Have you done a leg recently?"
Yes: "Then you're current and don't need to do one today."
No: "Then you're not current, so I'll do this leg."
"Have you done a leg recently?"
Yes: "Then you're current and don't need to do one today."
No: "Then you're not current, so I'll do this leg."
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Thanks for all of your input its been great.
Just one more question. How do you guys know when to began your flare?
From the main wheels to where your seated there would be at least 40ft in height difference i'm guessing and even more in a 747 ...due to the high nose attitude . Is it just a matter of getting use to it or do you have instruments to help you with this??
AZ
Just one more question. How do you guys know when to began your flare?
From the main wheels to where your seated there would be at least 40ft in height difference i'm guessing and even more in a 747 ...due to the high nose attitude . Is it just a matter of getting use to it or do you have instruments to help you with this??
AZ
Nunc est bibendum
AZ, I dunno either but I can tell you that it's just before the precise moment you realise you've flared to late and are about to bury the thing on the 500' markers. 
Just one more question. How do you guys know when to began your flare?
From the main wheels to where your seated there would be at least 40ft in height difference i'm guessing and even more in a 747 ...due to the high nose attitude . Is it just a matter of getting use to it or do you have instruments to help you with this??
Actually, it's more than that in a 747. You typically start to flare just under 30's on the radar altimeter when heavy and as low as 20' when light. (280 tonnes Vs say 190 tonnes)
The cockpit eye line is about 35' above the wheels with the struts extended, maybe a little more, and the nose is pitched up about 2.5deg when you start the flare.
So your eye line is nearly 60' above the ground, and it really does take some getting use to!
I still rely perhaps too much on the radar altimeter, and am making an effort to ignore it and flare purely on visual cues. It's no as easy as a little plane, such as a 737/A-320, etc, as you're much higher up.
From the main wheels to where your seated there would be at least 40ft in height difference i'm guessing and even more in a 747 ...due to the high nose attitude . Is it just a matter of getting use to it or do you have instruments to help you with this??
Actually, it's more than that in a 747. You typically start to flare just under 30's on the radar altimeter when heavy and as low as 20' when light. (280 tonnes Vs say 190 tonnes)
The cockpit eye line is about 35' above the wheels with the struts extended, maybe a little more, and the nose is pitched up about 2.5deg when you start the flare.
So your eye line is nearly 60' above the ground, and it really does take some getting use to!
I still rely perhaps too much on the radar altimeter, and am making an effort to ignore it and flare purely on visual cues. It's no as easy as a little plane, such as a 737/A-320, etc, as you're much higher up.
