The sounds of silence............Nov 27th
PPruNaholic!
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Jeez, its getting like romper room in here sometimes..! I am beginning to wonder whether we, as Australian's, can have a discussion without slinging sh1t at each other!?
Andy
Andy
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 10th Dec 2003 at 19:53.
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Insult shields to full power.
Dehav.
Why do I think the way I do?
I commute, Can'tberra to Cairns. Occasionally I go for the scenic coastal route.
Pre-NAS
I leave Can'tberra, lots of C, maybe three airplanes if you are lucky. Through airspace designated for a Army helicopter training school that hasn't been there since '97.
I get to Nowra, great huge chunks of controlled airspace for a Navy with no jets.
Willi-town, same thing. Airspace, no airplanes.
Coffs, airspace, perhaps one airplane if I waited around a few hours. If I dare land for fuel I get a 'services' charge for AsA, even if I am the only aircraft in the sky!!!
I get to Coolie and cop an A, C, D mish-mash all the way up past Maroochy. Brisbane I can understand, the rest, blah!
Rocky and Mackay come next. Hardly ever any traffic, certainly usually less that say Dubbo. Rocky, gee, we get to pay for services put there for a Singapore Airforce invasion if we land.
Then the Whitsundays, what a mess. A grumpy controller to boot.
Townsville, civil/mil airport with really different procedures.
Cairns, I really respect those guys. Forced N/S appraocahes and still I am never stuffed around.
Post NAS 2b.
E over the 'airplane challenged' airports. I stay clear of over the top and the rest is easy. That's why.
Unnecessary Mil airspace is still a pain.
The other points.
I agree re the frequencies and am fighting that battle best I can.
I think it is a union excercise because I think their statements are lies and exaggeration. So i wonder if the end plan is to reduce controllers, I think it is and I think they know that.
One final point, I cannot yet find any money savings unless controller numbers are reduced. I have never said there will be any savings.
AK
Why do I think the way I do?
I commute, Can'tberra to Cairns. Occasionally I go for the scenic coastal route.
Pre-NAS
I leave Can'tberra, lots of C, maybe three airplanes if you are lucky. Through airspace designated for a Army helicopter training school that hasn't been there since '97.
I get to Nowra, great huge chunks of controlled airspace for a Navy with no jets.
Willi-town, same thing. Airspace, no airplanes.
Coffs, airspace, perhaps one airplane if I waited around a few hours. If I dare land for fuel I get a 'services' charge for AsA, even if I am the only aircraft in the sky!!!
I get to Coolie and cop an A, C, D mish-mash all the way up past Maroochy. Brisbane I can understand, the rest, blah!
Rocky and Mackay come next. Hardly ever any traffic, certainly usually less that say Dubbo. Rocky, gee, we get to pay for services put there for a Singapore Airforce invasion if we land.
Then the Whitsundays, what a mess. A grumpy controller to boot.
Townsville, civil/mil airport with really different procedures.
Cairns, I really respect those guys. Forced N/S appraocahes and still I am never stuffed around.
Post NAS 2b.
E over the 'airplane challenged' airports. I stay clear of over the top and the rest is easy. That's why.
Unnecessary Mil airspace is still a pain.
The other points.
I agree re the frequencies and am fighting that battle best I can.
I think it is a union excercise because I think their statements are lies and exaggeration. So i wonder if the end plan is to reduce controllers, I think it is and I think they know that.
One final point, I cannot yet find any money savings unless controller numbers are reduced. I have never said there will be any savings.
AK
DHD yes you are correct, I shaould have realised the difference in reference points.
Has anyone plotted out the FIA boundaries from the DAH? It appears they are virtualy identical to the pre NOV27 boundaries except the vertical boundaries have been lifted from 5000ft to 8500ft (base of E). One thing is a bit wierd is the area for ML-CEN 123.75 which used to be for airspace above 5000ft to NE of ML has been reduced to an approx 10nm by 10nm polygon just outside classE near Yabba Nth on the ML VNC ( sorry about the visual ref). Anyone else found this?
At least now I have an idea of where the boundaries are, should make things a little easier to maintain a listening watch.
Regards
Mark
Has anyone plotted out the FIA boundaries from the DAH? It appears they are virtualy identical to the pre NOV27 boundaries except the vertical boundaries have been lifted from 5000ft to 8500ft (base of E). One thing is a bit wierd is the area for ML-CEN 123.75 which used to be for airspace above 5000ft to NE of ML has been reduced to an approx 10nm by 10nm polygon just outside classE near Yabba Nth on the ML VNC ( sorry about the visual ref). Anyone else found this?
At least now I have an idea of where the boundaries are, should make things a little easier to maintain a listening watch.
Regards
Mark
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Snarek...damn right, union bludgers cheating the poor Aussie tax payer for oh so long...
Now then can we send the controllers that aren't sacked up to Cairns for some attitude adjustment.
Now then can we send the controllers that aren't sacked up to Cairns for some attitude adjustment.
Seasonally Adjusted
snarek , you have singlehandedly convinced me not to rejoin AOPA.
Dick , good to see you posting on this forum but your analogy regarding the car CB radio and comparisons between the weather in the US and Oz don't inspire me with confidence.
Dick , good to see you posting on this forum but your analogy regarding the car CB radio and comparisons between the weather in the US and Oz don't inspire me with confidence.
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Snarek,
How do you know?
How do you know?
How do you know?
How do you know?
Do you have the complete picture of all these bits of airspace as you travel through, and especially around them? Can you see and hear all of the aircraft around you to make such comments?
If this is truly why you think the way you do, then I suggest that your reasoning is not entirely objective. It is based on your experience which is only part of the picture - ie it is subjective. You make the mistake of thinking that all that is happening around you is only what you can see and hear. You try to convince with anecdotes which both proves and disproves little. Your attempt at "the truth" with the ML incident in another thread is again based on subjective points of view from only one side of a many-sided story.
Your reasoning for the NAS issue being "beaten up" by the "unions" is flawed. You assert that, in the first place, the unions are liying and exaggerating. You then assume that it must be for a reason. Then you think it must be because of ATC jobs because that is the only way to save significant money with NAS. All of this is based on your premise that the unions are lying and exaggerating - it's a circular argument. You deduce from your premise to support your premise. It appears that this only convinces people who either already agree with you and/or who think with the same faulted logic. If you can fight the issues (eg safety) without trying to attack the straw man of motives (eg unionism) with rhetoric, you might win some more credible support for your position.
In any case, can you tell me why some pilots unions oppose NAS? What is their agenda? What have they got to lose?
I leave Can'tberra, lots of C, maybe three airplanes if you are lucky
Willi-town, same thing. Airspace, no airplanes
Coffs, airspace, perhaps one airplane if I waited around a few hours.
Rocky and Mackay come next. Hardly ever any traffic, certainly usually less that say Dubbo.
Do you have the complete picture of all these bits of airspace as you travel through, and especially around them? Can you see and hear all of the aircraft around you to make such comments?
If this is truly why you think the way you do, then I suggest that your reasoning is not entirely objective. It is based on your experience which is only part of the picture - ie it is subjective. You make the mistake of thinking that all that is happening around you is only what you can see and hear. You try to convince with anecdotes which both proves and disproves little. Your attempt at "the truth" with the ML incident in another thread is again based on subjective points of view from only one side of a many-sided story.
Your reasoning for the NAS issue being "beaten up" by the "unions" is flawed. You assert that, in the first place, the unions are liying and exaggerating. You then assume that it must be for a reason. Then you think it must be because of ATC jobs because that is the only way to save significant money with NAS. All of this is based on your premise that the unions are lying and exaggerating - it's a circular argument. You deduce from your premise to support your premise. It appears that this only convinces people who either already agree with you and/or who think with the same faulted logic. If you can fight the issues (eg safety) without trying to attack the straw man of motives (eg unionism) with rhetoric, you might win some more credible support for your position.
In any case, can you tell me why some pilots unions oppose NAS? What is their agenda? What have they got to lose?
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Question.............. Why is the class E airspace over Alice Springs still controlled by the AS TWR until next year?
Is there a problem with the space, the concept, safety?
Why was there a situation at Alice Sp where an IFR aircraft on the ILS had to contend with a VFR helicopter in it's path.
The NAS answer is that the VFR helo should have tracked clear of the approach.
But he was justifiably in that space for a reason.
No risk to safety /seperation in this matter as the pilots' did what they normaly would do. Talk to each other on the area freq.
Is there a problem with the space, the concept, safety?
Why was there a situation at Alice Sp where an IFR aircraft on the ILS had to contend with a VFR helicopter in it's path.
The NAS answer is that the VFR helo should have tracked clear of the approach.
But he was justifiably in that space for a reason.
No risk to safety /seperation in this matter as the pilots' did what they normaly would do. Talk to each other on the area freq.
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Here to Help.
I have actually been told by someone who probably should know, that the final implimentation of NAS should reduce the need for ATC by about 200 people.
I think CivilAir know that and thus the beat up.
Interestingly, I think the basis behind the suggested cutbacks is based on a flawed argument. Nevertheless, when faced with the level of insults and anti-GA sentiment expressed on here by ATC, AFAP and CivilAir people I am hardly going to try to bring AOPA into the fray to support their cause now am I??
AK
I have actually been told by someone who probably should know, that the final implimentation of NAS should reduce the need for ATC by about 200 people.
I think CivilAir know that and thus the beat up.
Interestingly, I think the basis behind the suggested cutbacks is based on a flawed argument. Nevertheless, when faced with the level of insults and anti-GA sentiment expressed on here by ATC, AFAP and CivilAir people I am hardly going to try to bring AOPA into the fray to support their cause now am I??
AK
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Thanks snarek,
I think Civil Air agrees with you on this.
If safety of NAS was a concern to the ATC who are members of Civil Air, then why shouldn't Civil Air represent its members - just like you would represent your AOPA members? Don't you think that safety can be of genuine concern to a union?
If it is just a matter of a perceived loss of ATC jobs, then why are pilots unions against NAS?
In any case, it seems that many valid questions of safety with NAS has not been answered. Arguments that NAS is not less safe have not been refuted. To avoid pursuing these questions and arguments by concerning one's self only with insults and "anti-GA" sentiments only serves as a distraction.
If you are concerned about motive, then the best way to expose it is to attack the arguments used, not the motive itself.
Interestingly, I think the basis behind the suggested cutbacks is based on a flawed argument.
If safety of NAS was a concern to the ATC who are members of Civil Air, then why shouldn't Civil Air represent its members - just like you would represent your AOPA members? Don't you think that safety can be of genuine concern to a union?
If it is just a matter of a perceived loss of ATC jobs, then why are pilots unions against NAS?
In any case, it seems that many valid questions of safety with NAS has not been answered. Arguments that NAS is not less safe have not been refuted. To avoid pursuing these questions and arguments by concerning one's self only with insults and "anti-GA" sentiments only serves as a distraction.
If you are concerned about motive, then the best way to expose it is to attack the arguments used, not the motive itself.
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Snarek
We have all been told things by 'someone who probably should know'. Unfortunately, when pressed for facts, figures and hard evidence, these people who 'should know' seem to all disappear.
For instance, I asked Dick Smith for the supporting evidence to prove that NAS would not reduce safety in Australia. Silence
You, as 'someone who probably should know', confidently stated that, in the USA, controllers routinely query non-mode-C VFR paints as to their level. When pressed as to how they did this (or how we would in Australia) when the pilots were not on the ATC frequency, the discussion suddenly dried up.
I asked Dick Smith, many, many moons ago, to justify his claims that NAS would save $50 million (as costs were one of the terms of reference of the ARG). Silence
Regular followers of these forums need no reminding of the issues that 'someone who probably should know' either does not know, or refuses to tell us.
I have actually been told by someone who probably should know, that the final implimentation of NAS should reduce the need for ATC by about 200 people.
For instance, I asked Dick Smith for the supporting evidence to prove that NAS would not reduce safety in Australia. Silence
You, as 'someone who probably should know', confidently stated that, in the USA, controllers routinely query non-mode-C VFR paints as to their level. When pressed as to how they did this (or how we would in Australia) when the pilots were not on the ATC frequency, the discussion suddenly dried up.
I asked Dick Smith, many, many moons ago, to justify his claims that NAS would save $50 million (as costs were one of the terms of reference of the ARG). Silence
Regular followers of these forums need no reminding of the issues that 'someone who probably should know' either does not know, or refuses to tell us.
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If Civilair members were so upset with the NAS 2b changes, then why didn't they strike? Was there pressure from the management at AsA? According to the media, they were going to, so why the change of heart?
Please this is not a pot stir, just a question I'd like to know the answer to without being bashed up over.
TBT
Please this is not a pot stir, just a question I'd like to know the answer to without being bashed up over.
TBT
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TBT,
I believe it's because any strike would have been deemed illegal - "unprotected industrial action", leaving Airservices and others to hold employees personally accountable for any loss of business during the strike.
I believe it's because any strike would have been deemed illegal - "unprotected industrial action", leaving Airservices and others to hold employees personally accountable for any loss of business during the strike.
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Thanks for that Here to Help.
What would constitute a legal strike for Air Traffic Controllers, or any professional for that matter? Anyone?
What would constitute a legal strike for Air Traffic Controllers, or any professional for that matter? Anyone?
OZBUSDRIVER
The FIAs are still in the Airservices database, because they are used internally by ATC to give frequency transfers to IFR aircraft. They were just turned off for the printing process. They can be easily reinstated, and in my view the Industry are the customers, so what the customers want on the charts, they should have.
I think what you are looking at is a so-called "biscuit box", merely a box of frequency data placed roughly in the centre of the area it applies to. The FIA data in DAH still covers the area it did prior to 27 Nov.
snarek
When the NAS proposal was first announced, the Airservices board were told by a project team that contrary to saving $70m/year, NAS would cost an additional $20m/year if implemented. That has appeared in Hansard I recall, and it still applies today. The AA position is that they are implementing what the gov't. has told them to, and as their costs increase they will increase their charges. Their RAPAC chairman stated this at an ACT RAPAC in May 2002 that you were at I believe. Have a look back through your RAPAC minutes.
The FIAs are still in the Airservices database, because they are used internally by ATC to give frequency transfers to IFR aircraft. They were just turned off for the printing process. They can be easily reinstated, and in my view the Industry are the customers, so what the customers want on the charts, they should have.
I think what you are looking at is a so-called "biscuit box", merely a box of frequency data placed roughly in the centre of the area it applies to. The FIA data in DAH still covers the area it did prior to 27 Nov.
snarek
I have actually been told by someone who probably should know, that the final implimentation of NAS should reduce the need for ATC by about 200 people.
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Get fu***d winstons..
I know you're winding up big time, but who the hell are you to speak about ATC? I'd like to see you do their job mate, but I'm guessing you wouldn't have half the brains
I know you're winding up big time, but who the hell are you to speak about ATC? I'd like to see you do their job mate, but I'm guessing you wouldn't have half the brains
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i dont have 1/2 a brain i have 1/4 not that that would matter bc it is so easy to get a job in the crisper... and then to progress up the ladder to approach......... like that was difficult! come on.
PPruNaholic!
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winston(s): Even though I am largely pro-NAS myself, I don't think that childish wind-ups from guys like you giving the impresssion that ATC are unappreciated by GA pilots is at all helpful. Grow up you child.
Andy
Andy