2003 cadets will be employed by Air North as First Officers on Brasilias
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High Alt. How is it profitable???
An FO on a Bras with 200 hours is paid the same as an FO with 2500 hours. Length of service shouldn't be an issue due to bonding. After a year or two the low time pilot and the experienced pilot would be both trying to get in with qantas or the likes so both just as likely to leave.
I can't see any profit/money issues here. Maybe someone else can show me the light
An FO on a Bras with 200 hours is paid the same as an FO with 2500 hours. Length of service shouldn't be an issue due to bonding. After a year or two the low time pilot and the experienced pilot would be both trying to get in with qantas or the likes so both just as likely to leave.
I can't see any profit/money issues here. Maybe someone else can show me the light
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I would argue that a cadet would cost you more money because you have to spend the money on training. (unless the casets are paying it themselves!! That could be a financial winner for Airnorth) QF have discovered this for themselves in the last 12 months. Kegs claim of the pass rate being the same I don't think is entirely correct.
Wouldn't mind hearing a QF 737 Captain's thoughts on this topic
Wouldn't mind hearing a QF 737 Captain's thoughts on this topic
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Many interesting points of view, and the usual slanging match at cadets.
First thing first i have nothing against cadets, If you can get in then its a gravy train compared to GA, i know some cadets are great pilots but there are also allot of arrogant little sh*ts.
From my point of view i find it hard to understand what makes a cadet so special, Why would and airline go through all the time/money/effort to train up some 17 year old then move them up to Darwin to get experience for a few years in GA.
Why does qantas bother with these cadets when they can easily go to ****** or AIRNORTH ..... and get a GA FO or Capt. (and dont tell me 80% of the guys would jump to upgrade to big jets and big bucks)
Oh and they spend all this effort for what?, oh that’s right he can rearrange cubes in his head and look and some stupid abstract patterns and find a similarity. Really why doesn’t Qantas try looking at a pilots qualifications, i would think that these are more of a judge of their ability.
I certainly hope that cadets is a way for Captains to get the sons hired cause otherwise it just does not make sense.
GeeBeeZee
First thing first i have nothing against cadets, If you can get in then its a gravy train compared to GA, i know some cadets are great pilots but there are also allot of arrogant little sh*ts.
From my point of view i find it hard to understand what makes a cadet so special, Why would and airline go through all the time/money/effort to train up some 17 year old then move them up to Darwin to get experience for a few years in GA.
Why does qantas bother with these cadets when they can easily go to ****** or AIRNORTH ..... and get a GA FO or Capt. (and dont tell me 80% of the guys would jump to upgrade to big jets and big bucks)
Oh and they spend all this effort for what?, oh that’s right he can rearrange cubes in his head and look and some stupid abstract patterns and find a similarity. Really why doesn’t Qantas try looking at a pilots qualifications, i would think that these are more of a judge of their ability.
I certainly hope that cadets is a way for Captains to get the sons hired cause otherwise it just does not make sense.
GeeBeeZee
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I tend to agree with GeeBeeZee there..........I mean there are a lot of guys that can rotate cubes and stuff like that in their head and do it quickly to the airlines satisfaction but does this mean that one is now ready to be interviewed by an airline for a job??........
Gee I would of thought that if QF was going to spend a million dollars on training a pilot over a given time span, then they would want to know if the guy could fly first and foremost..........thats the way the RAAF do it anyway.
I also believe that a cadet should be tested for his management and priority skills and these skills tend to be more utilised in advanced aircraft these days due to all the systems on board that allow hands free flying, so airline pilots these days are more managers and operators than they were in the past.
I spoke to one QF captain and he told me that he elects to engage the autopilot at 800 feet and will disconnect it when there close to approaching the glide slope............geez - that says to me that you have to be good at managing an airplane and where does the cube rotation part come into this?!! - you tell me!
I believe the skills test is basically a filtering mechanism because there is an oversupply of wannabee pilots that apply and they can't afford to interview every one of them so they give em a few little pointless tests but thats not to say they are going to make good pilots.........I think QF should adapt a recruitment style that is a cross between Virgin and RAAF......maybe that would produce a fairer and safer system.
Gee I would of thought that if QF was going to spend a million dollars on training a pilot over a given time span, then they would want to know if the guy could fly first and foremost..........thats the way the RAAF do it anyway.
I also believe that a cadet should be tested for his management and priority skills and these skills tend to be more utilised in advanced aircraft these days due to all the systems on board that allow hands free flying, so airline pilots these days are more managers and operators than they were in the past.
I spoke to one QF captain and he told me that he elects to engage the autopilot at 800 feet and will disconnect it when there close to approaching the glide slope............geez - that says to me that you have to be good at managing an airplane and where does the cube rotation part come into this?!! - you tell me!
I believe the skills test is basically a filtering mechanism because there is an oversupply of wannabee pilots that apply and they can't afford to interview every one of them so they give em a few little pointless tests but thats not to say they are going to make good pilots.........I think QF should adapt a recruitment style that is a cross between Virgin and RAAF......maybe that would produce a fairer and safer system.
Fair recruitment process
Mr Garrison, The RAAF have an almost identical filtering system for pilot testing as the QF stage one.
The Virgin process seems to be entirely based on recommendation. This is the ultimate Old Boys club. Whilst I don't necessarily disagree that this is a good way of keeping ******s out your airline; ******s tend to filter through even the most water tight system.
Some great drivers never get a shot at the Job because some ****** doesn't like them (for whatever reason) or they don't know anyone important and are therefore not recommended.
The Old boys club CAN be detrimental to a fair process which may turn up the best candidate.
The QF stage one filter might be bollocks but as long as you meet the minimum prerequisite educational requirements (I know another filter bollocks) you and everyone else WILL get a shot! To my mind that is a fairer recruitment process.
The Virgin process seems to be entirely based on recommendation. This is the ultimate Old Boys club. Whilst I don't necessarily disagree that this is a good way of keeping ******s out your airline; ******s tend to filter through even the most water tight system.
Some great drivers never get a shot at the Job because some ****** doesn't like them (for whatever reason) or they don't know anyone important and are therefore not recommended.
The Old boys club CAN be detrimental to a fair process which may turn up the best candidate.
The QF stage one filter might be bollocks but as long as you meet the minimum prerequisite educational requirements (I know another filter bollocks) you and everyone else WILL get a shot! To my mind that is a fairer recruitment process.
bitter balance
Fairly limited research or haven't you read the book "RPT Accidents In The Mid-East/Asia Caused By Cadets"?
Caused should of course be changed to contributed.
I won't enter the emotionally charged debate regarding cadets in the benign Australian environment. I will say my disapproval due the erosion of conditions that occur to pilot salaries when experience means little.
Another consideration, though probably not relevant to Australia, is how successfully do Cadet's upgrade when the commercial pressure is on? Many rapidly expanding foreign airlines have discovered flaws in Cadet Programmes as upgrading within a 5 year period unlikely.
Actually, flaws in Cadet Programmes are probably why many expats have jobs at all!
Fairly limited research or haven't you read the book "RPT Accidents In The Mid-East/Asia Caused By Cadets"?
Caused should of course be changed to contributed.
I won't enter the emotionally charged debate regarding cadets in the benign Australian environment. I will say my disapproval due the erosion of conditions that occur to pilot salaries when experience means little.
Another consideration, though probably not relevant to Australia, is how successfully do Cadet's upgrade when the commercial pressure is on? Many rapidly expanding foreign airlines have discovered flaws in Cadet Programmes as upgrading within a 5 year period unlikely.
Actually, flaws in Cadet Programmes are probably why many expats have jobs at all!
Nunc est bibendum
Benign flying environment?
Hey Gnade, University of Texas shows that QF domestic crews face 33% more 'threats' than our American bretheren. QF International crews face about double the threats of our American bretheren.
Sure, when the yanks get weather, they get it BIG but those are the stats. Shocked a lot of people and I'm STILL questioning the methodology but am assured by reports seen by Uni Texas that methodology was the same for other carriers. Lies, damn lies and statistics I guess.
Sure, when the yanks get weather, they get it BIG but those are the stats. Shocked a lot of people and I'm STILL questioning the methodology but am assured by reports seen by Uni Texas that methodology was the same for other carriers. Lies, damn lies and statistics I guess.
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Money always money
Guys and gals, its always to do with money. QF need to give the cadets jobs, otherwise the cadet won't keep enroling and paying big money to do it. Qantas needs the cash as it is losing money and cadet training staff need to justify there jobs. Airnorth needs to please QF as they do ALOT of business with each other. Airnorth need extra crews due to staff leaving for Qantas link, virgin etc and the new ASA deals means that they need extra staff to move to Adelaide. I've been told that many of the current crews don't want to move to adelaide, probably because they'll lose out on their command slots if they do.
Who knows maybe QF have organised some subsidy deal for airnorth to nurse the cadets or have tie knots on new commercial deals with airnorth?
Money and always money.
U2
Who knows maybe QF have organised some subsidy deal for airnorth to nurse the cadets or have tie knots on new commercial deals with airnorth?
Money and always money.
U2
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I was having a drink at the Hereford in London the other day (night??) with a few former AN, now QF crew as well as the captain.
We were all regailing each other about tales of flying and where we started and types yadda yadda. Even the captain was reminiscing about flying Mooney's doing bank runs etc. (not to mention the mighty Shed)
A couple of poms were trying to have a go and see if we'd seen our own country. He picked the wrong table to offer that challenge.
Howls of laughter followed that one. (I wonder how Billabong girl got on? You had to be there I guess)
If the cadets get some experience on more "hands on" types prior to going to the big jets then it can't hurt. Personally, I reckon they've missed out on the fun* part of commercial aviation but hey, they are making the big bucks....
* yeah I know, working flat out, hot conditions, not brilliant money, ancient slugwagons etc...
We were all regailing each other about tales of flying and where we started and types yadda yadda. Even the captain was reminiscing about flying Mooney's doing bank runs etc. (not to mention the mighty Shed)
A couple of poms were trying to have a go and see if we'd seen our own country. He picked the wrong table to offer that challenge.
Howls of laughter followed that one. (I wonder how Billabong girl got on? You had to be there I guess)If the cadets get some experience on more "hands on" types prior to going to the big jets then it can't hurt. Personally, I reckon they've missed out on the fun* part of commercial aviation but hey, they are making the big bucks....
* yeah I know, working flat out, hot conditions, not brilliant money, ancient slugwagons etc...
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Well said Redtail, I reckon it's more about the journey too. Would love to be able to, one day, say that I've flown a tiger moth and a 747, and everything in between, all over the world. Think the cadets may miss that opportunity... but wonder if they'd care?
Nunc est bibendum
Wonder no more ABC. I certainly miss not having done THY as far as GA is concerned. Most other cadets I've spoken to think similarly. I still managed to do some 'fun' stuff along the way- a Duchess charter from Camden to Lismore and via Armidale, Tamworth and Taree on the way back as well as a few other bits and piece- but I'll always miss not having done some of the more 'interesting' parts of GA.
That said, I haven't met many people in QF that wouldn't have traded that 'fun stuff' in a blink' in order to get into QF earlier. Sure, no one has any regrets about GA and most blokes speak 'well' of it but no one deludes themselves about where the 'better' place to be is and the sooner you can get there, the better off you are- not skills necessarily but family, pay, stability, etc.
Sorry to dispel another possible myth about cadets.
That said, I haven't met many people in QF that wouldn't have traded that 'fun stuff' in a blink' in order to get into QF earlier. Sure, no one has any regrets about GA and most blokes speak 'well' of it but no one deludes themselves about where the 'better' place to be is and the sooner you can get there, the better off you are- not skills necessarily but family, pay, stability, etc.
Sorry to dispel another possible myth about cadets.
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Gnadenburg - not at all, I considered it and dismissed it. I think cultural and political issues are far more relevant to RPT accidents in the Mid East/South East Asia than cadet programs.
To pick you up on the "benign" Australian environment - don't QF cadets spend most of their time in international airspace?
To pick you up on the "benign" Australian environment - don't QF cadets spend most of their time in international airspace?
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Keg & VHF, reason I'd pick cadet route instead of via GA is because a few mates, and good guys at that, couldn't get out of GA for whatever reason. So you can't really say you're better off going via GA when that secure mainline or longhaul job might never eventuate. And you might be stuck doing 30 years in rough old 402s for even rougher operators.
Other funny thing here is that people slag off the cadets but no-one ever slags off the flt ops management in Qantas who keep the cadet program going. From talking to a couple of QF captains over a beer one put their offspring via the cadet course because the extra years on the super fund (3-5) meant the Cadet could ditch Qantas earlier if he wanted to.
7 cadets and 5 Emb slots available so if they can't find two more slots then the two guys will go to Qantas direct.
Other funny thing here is that people slag off the cadets but no-one ever slags off the flt ops management in Qantas who keep the cadet program going. From talking to a couple of QF captains over a beer one put their offspring via the cadet course because the extra years on the super fund (3-5) meant the Cadet could ditch Qantas earlier if he wanted to.
7 cadets and 5 Emb slots available so if they can't find two more slots then the two guys will go to Qantas direct.
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I think we should be looking at accidents in 30 years time when todays cadets are Captains. Then we will know how good or bad these schemes are. Comparing accidents of today and looking for cadets is a waste of time because none of them have command of the aircraft. The rubber will hit the road when cadets take command of a heavy jet with 100 hours experience in command. FLying around in the RH seat is one thing, taking full command and the buck stopping with you is entirely another. Time will tell.
Keg is it not true that QF have added an extra check for cadets because they had so many guys failing and or pulled off line due to lack of flying ability???
Keg is it not true that QF have added an extra check for cadets because they had so many guys failing and or pulled off line due to lack of flying ability???
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I think we should be looking at accidents in 30 years time when todays cadets are Captains
From experience, cadets are no less or more capable (flying-wise) on average than a self-funded candidate during their training.
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Just on the original topic for a second, it just goes to show what a load of rubbish these 'minimum requirements' turned out be. How do they go from having minimums of thousands of hours and 500 multi etc etc etc to recruiting guys with 200 hours??!!!
Hugh
BIG difference between the original cadet scheme in the 70's and today.
1. The best people were selected (apparantly!!) and having the ability to pay was not a criteria. So a guy who's parents were not loaded had just as good a chance as someone who had family money.
2. The 70's cadets went and worked in GA for a few years THEN went to Qantas.
The original cadets of the 70's actually had some flying experience when they jumped into a 747 etc as opposed to the cadets of today who are lucky to have 100 hours in command. Hence my point about accidents in the future. Cadets of today will taking command of a 747 with around 100 hours of command experience. The cadets of the past got commands with around about 1000+ hours in command. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE!!
Also just hands on flying skills is only one part of being a pilot. From what experinece does a 100 hour captain draw upon?? It is one thing to be sitting in the RHS watching and being part of the decision making but not being ultimately not responsible. It is ENTIRELY ANOTHER to have YOUR butt on the line. That it the difference bewteen command time and Co-Pilot time. Anyway time will tell, I could be wrong and all these cadets will turn out to be the best captains ever!! Alternatively..............................
Hugh
BIG difference between the original cadet scheme in the 70's and today.
1. The best people were selected (apparantly!!) and having the ability to pay was not a criteria. So a guy who's parents were not loaded had just as good a chance as someone who had family money.
2. The 70's cadets went and worked in GA for a few years THEN went to Qantas.
The original cadets of the 70's actually had some flying experience when they jumped into a 747 etc as opposed to the cadets of today who are lucky to have 100 hours in command. Hence my point about accidents in the future. Cadets of today will taking command of a 747 with around 100 hours of command experience. The cadets of the past got commands with around about 1000+ hours in command. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE!!
Also just hands on flying skills is only one part of being a pilot. From what experinece does a 100 hour captain draw upon?? It is one thing to be sitting in the RHS watching and being part of the decision making but not being ultimately not responsible. It is ENTIRELY ANOTHER to have YOUR butt on the line. That it the difference bewteen command time and Co-Pilot time. Anyway time will tell, I could be wrong and all these cadets will turn out to be the best captains ever!! Alternatively..............................
Last edited by scud_runner; 27th Oct 2003 at 09:08.