bugsmasher conflict with airline scheds
Thread Starter
bugsmasher conflict with airline scheds
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question. Short of digging thru the net and half a dozen phone calls to ascertain timetables Is there any readily available list of RPT scheds into regional airports around the eastern states? Reason for asking, I am about to excercise my privilages on my PPL ( If I can convince said examiner of airmen that I am safe enough) I thought would be a bit of an aid to avoid certain airspace in the planning stage or at least to be aware that a Dash or SAAB should be around at a certain time in a certain area.
My reasoning is say I am planning YMEN to YMIA to arrive late aftn. It would be handy to know if my ETA is going to put me in conflict with an inbound RPT on descent whilst I'm still beatling along at 4500ft about 15nm out. I thought it would be good airmanship to adjust departure to make sure that there is no conflict to start with. Or would it be just easier to ring someone on the day to see what the schedules actualy are? If so who is the best to ask? Local agents, airport operators, refuelers? It may be a little thing but could avoid a big fast thing and make everyone unhappy.
Thanks in advance.
Regards
Mark
About to slip the surely bonds after 20yrs
My reasoning is say I am planning YMEN to YMIA to arrive late aftn. It would be handy to know if my ETA is going to put me in conflict with an inbound RPT on descent whilst I'm still beatling along at 4500ft about 15nm out. I thought it would be good airmanship to adjust departure to make sure that there is no conflict to start with. Or would it be just easier to ring someone on the day to see what the schedules actualy are? If so who is the best to ask? Local agents, airport operators, refuelers? It may be a little thing but could avoid a big fast thing and make everyone unhappy.
Thanks in advance.
Regards
Mark
About to slip the surely bonds after 20yrs
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I dont know of any easily accessable list but refulers are always a good source of info !.
Whilst I understand your trepidation about operating in the same blue stuff as the bigger guys - there is really no need to be too concerned as long as you do things properly, as you have no doubt been trained to.......
1. Make sure your transponder is on ALT
2. Make sure you're on the right frequency (ML CEN approaching MIA and MBZ at YMIA)
3. Know where you are, or at the very least you distance to run YMIA (DME or GPS can be good if used properly)
4. Let people know what youre doing - Broadcast approaching the MBZ At least if it all turns bad, others can stay out of your way !
A dash or a saab isnt anything to be too worried about - youre much more likely to be cleaned up by a 60 year old private pilot with 300 hours accumulated over 30 years flying with his head down following a GPS thats programmed wrongly and whos not using his radio.
Good luck with your test !
Whilst I understand your trepidation about operating in the same blue stuff as the bigger guys - there is really no need to be too concerned as long as you do things properly, as you have no doubt been trained to.......
1. Make sure your transponder is on ALT
2. Make sure you're on the right frequency (ML CEN approaching MIA and MBZ at YMIA)
3. Know where you are, or at the very least you distance to run YMIA (DME or GPS can be good if used properly)
4. Let people know what youre doing - Broadcast approaching the MBZ At least if it all turns bad, others can stay out of your way !
A dash or a saab isnt anything to be too worried about - youre much more likely to be cleaned up by a 60 year old private pilot with 300 hours accumulated over 30 years flying with his head down following a GPS thats programmed wrongly and whos not using his radio.
Good luck with your test !
Yea, dont worry about the airlines. Those guys well give you plenty of warning if there anywhere near. If you just make the right radio calls you shouldnt have a problem. (unless of course you run into a cocky 100hr pilot hell bent on showing you just how bad he realy is(e.g ME))
Nah, the big boys have always been good to us littlens, as long as you say where you are they well often help you out.
DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK!!!!
Good luck on the exam, its not as hard as you think.
Nah, the big boys have always been good to us littlens, as long as you say where you are they well often help you out.
DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK!!!!
Good luck on the exam, its not as hard as you think.
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OZBUSDRIVER
Just try to keep things simple, don't over complicate things.
TopperHarley is obviously warning you about how he/she/it flies by saying "you're much more likely to be cleaned up by a 60 year old private pilot with 300 hours accumulated over 30 years flying with his head down following a GPS thats programmed wrongly and whos not using his radio."
Toppers lack of familiarity with the contents of ERSA gives them away. The refuellers phone numbers are there for all to see
As you arrive from the SE into MIA, the start of the green bits are
pretty much 15 nm from the AD and the edge of the MBZ. Also the AD can be a bit hard to see at the time of the day you mentioned, especially if there is a bit of haze or dust around. Time & heading-keep them both at all times.
ding
Just try to keep things simple, don't over complicate things.
TopperHarley is obviously warning you about how he/she/it flies by saying "you're much more likely to be cleaned up by a 60 year old private pilot with 300 hours accumulated over 30 years flying with his head down following a GPS thats programmed wrongly and whos not using his radio."
Toppers lack of familiarity with the contents of ERSA gives them away. The refuellers phone numbers are there for all to see
As you arrive from the SE into MIA, the start of the green bits are
pretty much 15 nm from the AD and the edge of the MBZ. Also the AD can be a bit hard to see at the time of the day you mentioned, especially if there is a bit of haze or dust around. Time & heading-keep them both at all times.
ding
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I would suggest that you plan your flight to your schedule. If you should arrive at the same time as a RPT flight, then it should be no problem.
Just remember to make sure:
1. Your estimates are accurate,
2. You know your distance out when asked,
3. Your tracking is close to where you say you are, and
4. You are using your radio,
Then there should be no worries. It's always good experience to be able to seperate yourself in the air, because there will always be times (no matter how much planning you do on the ground) that 2 (or more) aircraft will arrive at the same airfield at the same time.
Just remember to make sure:
1. Your estimates are accurate,
2. You know your distance out when asked,
3. Your tracking is close to where you say you are, and
4. You are using your radio,
Then there should be no worries. It's always good experience to be able to seperate yourself in the air, because there will always be times (no matter how much planning you do on the ground) that 2 (or more) aircraft will arrive at the same airfield at the same time.
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All good advice above. I would add just one thing...
Don't get spooked when you 'have' to talk to an RPT crew. Don't think that your brain has to move into overdrive, or that you have to do anything special.
You are just talking to another couple of blokes that are flying in the same area as you (except they are probably not enjoying themselves as much as you are!). You have just as much right to be in the air as the RPT. We don't OWN the airspace, we just work in it!
If a Dash 8, a Saab, or a Space Shuttle checks in on MBZ, what's the fuss? Just keep doing what you're doing, and communicate. Like everyone said above, just keep the mental picture happening (where am I now, where do I want to be, how do I get there.....etc). There is no need to re-invent the wheel!
Don't get spooked when you 'have' to talk to an RPT crew. Don't think that your brain has to move into overdrive, or that you have to do anything special.
You are just talking to another couple of blokes that are flying in the same area as you (except they are probably not enjoying themselves as much as you are!). You have just as much right to be in the air as the RPT. We don't OWN the airspace, we just work in it!
If a Dash 8, a Saab, or a Space Shuttle checks in on MBZ, what's the fuss? Just keep doing what you're doing, and communicate. Like everyone said above, just keep the mental picture happening (where am I now, where do I want to be, how do I get there.....etc). There is no need to re-invent the wheel!
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Hey Dingo,
Who needs an ERSA ???
Ive got over 300 hours now and have been flying since before you were born. The old VFG works for me.
How often does the runway direction or location of an aerodrome change ?? - NEVER. Hardly ever.
All those new documents like ERSA and all the charts youre supposed to have are just a CASA money making scheme.
Real pilots dont need that crap. (or radios)
Who needs an ERSA ???
Ive got over 300 hours now and have been flying since before you were born. The old VFG works for me.
How often does the runway direction or location of an aerodrome change ?? - NEVER. Hardly ever.
All those new documents like ERSA and all the charts youre supposed to have are just a CASA money making scheme.
Real pilots dont need that crap. (or radios)
Thread Starter
Thankyou all
I guess I am suffering from the "what-ifs" and the big unknown. I will attempt to keep to the ANC bit and make sure I am ahead of the aircraft and everyone else around me.
Just keep it simple and I'm already enjoying myself
Thanks again
Mark
Gee Dad, its just like flight-sim but the graphics are better....
I guess I am suffering from the "what-ifs" and the big unknown. I will attempt to keep to the ANC bit and make sure I am ahead of the aircraft and everyone else around me.
Just keep it simple and I'm already enjoying myself
Thanks again
Mark
Gee Dad, its just like flight-sim but the graphics are better....
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TopperHarley you must be positively ancient in that case.
I'm inclined to believe you are suffereing age induced brain fade, the aerodrome diagrams never were in the VFG, they were in the AGA. And yes runways have been known to change their numbers, MB for one in about 1976.
The other small matter is that operational documents are usually obtained from Air Services (or Jepperson) not from that other mob you mentioned (they are only regulators not operational people)
If you were flying before I was born then I reaaly hope you are NOT flying now.
ding
I'm inclined to believe you are suffereing age induced brain fade, the aerodrome diagrams never were in the VFG, they were in the AGA. And yes runways have been known to change their numbers, MB for one in about 1976.
The other small matter is that operational documents are usually obtained from Air Services (or Jepperson) not from that other mob you mentioned (they are only regulators not operational people)
If you were flying before I was born then I reaaly hope you are NOT flying now.
ding
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For fear of incriminating myself..... well I will just tell the story anyway...
brand sparklin' new PPL's by 2, 1 brand spankin new Airplane and approximately 1/3 of a country and a puddles worth of adventure from Bathurst to Devonport to be had...
So we planned and planned and looked through all the new toys the plane had to offer... It had only been ferried some three months prior to our planned trip so we were looking forward to showing it off!
So our day dawns bright and clear, hardly any wind and ohhh what a gorgeous day. Having done all the filling, checking and last minute arangements already, we headed off. All went well until about Wagga. We had planned an altitude high enough that we would be in Radar advisory and radar control zones until our planned stop in Bacchus Marsh. Our transponder failed.
They tossed us very unceremoniously out of our nice little freeway in the sky, and we ended up in an area we didnt know, didnt recognise, and given the lack of finite detail, we got ourselves and our very conspicuous plane very embarassing geographically misplaced by about 10 miles, until my flying buddy pointed out that he could see a large airport with lots of what appeared to boeings on it!
"Cool, look at all the airliners" says I, then, a horrible realisation dawned on us both...
"very not cool!!!"
"whats the VOR frequency for Tulla he asks?"
"If we are this close and 4500 then that would make us about here, about one range and two lots of TV towers out, oh boy... surely someone would have bumped us by now!"
As if summonsed the Gods from on high spoke..
"Aircraft in the vicinity of NW of Tullamarine Airport, 10 miles and 4500 feet, this is Melbourne Radar, please Identify"
Almost instantaneously as if triggered by the first voice, on the other selection on our radio was Melbourne Flight Services frequency became active featuring our call sign as well.
"ABC, ABC this is..... " mmmm
We duely accepted our new set of directions and then set course for Bacchus Marsh, some what embarrassed.
With much trepidation, I complied with the controllers request and I dialled the number he had given me. I was sure just about every pilot in the southern hemishere knew about our incursion into controlled airspace by now. I asked for Mebourne centre as requested and spoke to the approach supervisor. He asked what happened and I told him all about our transponder failing and our not switching the unit off. Mode C had failed so our unit was still live, but failing to transmit the required information. We were told to keep our code but decend, they handed us over and somewhere along the line we bumped mode C back to life. We hadnt done anything about changing the code. That was how we were later identified.. with a fully functioning Mode C.
To add fuel to the smoldering wrecks of our confidence, we cancelled SAR with the folks we last spoke to. They failed to pass the message on and phase one was activated. We were bounced on this too. To his credit, the chap was rather nice, much different to the horror stories we heard about from previous adventurers to the south.
He asked few questions about the plane, wished us well, and we retired hosted by the Bacchus Marsh Gliding Club! Thanks again!
Duely overfed at breakfast, refreshed the following morning, we set off for the Apple Isle. We followed the islands around, had our SAR intervals and all went well. We enjoyed the coastline, awed that such a place of beauty show have such a nasty reputation. Also bolstered by the fact we'd flown across a rather large puddle of water! We continued in our newly confident manner until we were within spitting distance of Devonport. We flew around for a bit, around and around... well it was under the fog somplace! Then as the saying goes, if you dont like the weather now... wait ten minutes, so as if on cue, it cleared off the strip and we landed...
Four merry days we spent... and the trip home was all going well... until we hit Wagga again... or didnt hit it. We had perused over the weather and noted the occasional CB and TS wandering about the west. No other notes were made on any of our airports enroute so we had time and fuel to spare by a huge margin.
We watched a line of storms building up to the west of Wagga, and decided that given they were now meeting up with a stalled line near Canberra, we should put down at Wagga and sit it out. Thats what we thought was the prudent thing to do....
As airport after airport around us was closed due storms, we were asking Wagga fairly early for clearance. The denied us... again we asked... again we were turned away... the bak runners and rpt aircraft had priority. Everyone it seemed was running for wagga. There were a few little VFRs like us which were repeatedly turned away as the weather around us worstened. We asked a couple of aircraft ahead of us what the going was like.
Something like shaken and stirred came to mind. All our training to never let a door shut behind us, never let the weather get ahead of you and close you in... and never let your lack of experience get you into trouble....
We weaved our way between cells, and eventually hit clear air about 25 mile from home...
That was the first of many learning experiences... over the years Ive learn't never be afraid to ask, never be declared to yell for help, even if you have been denied clearance, if they cant give you what you want, they usually have a solution. Never take it for granted when someone tells you something is broke, that it will stay broken.
And the day you fail to learn something, and the flying is no longer fun or rewarding... find something else of value... life was meant to be lived and this I found was one of the best ways to do it!
brand sparklin' new PPL's by 2, 1 brand spankin new Airplane and approximately 1/3 of a country and a puddles worth of adventure from Bathurst to Devonport to be had...
So we planned and planned and looked through all the new toys the plane had to offer... It had only been ferried some three months prior to our planned trip so we were looking forward to showing it off!
So our day dawns bright and clear, hardly any wind and ohhh what a gorgeous day. Having done all the filling, checking and last minute arangements already, we headed off. All went well until about Wagga. We had planned an altitude high enough that we would be in Radar advisory and radar control zones until our planned stop in Bacchus Marsh. Our transponder failed.
They tossed us very unceremoniously out of our nice little freeway in the sky, and we ended up in an area we didnt know, didnt recognise, and given the lack of finite detail, we got ourselves and our very conspicuous plane very embarassing geographically misplaced by about 10 miles, until my flying buddy pointed out that he could see a large airport with lots of what appeared to boeings on it!
"Cool, look at all the airliners" says I, then, a horrible realisation dawned on us both...
"very not cool!!!"
"whats the VOR frequency for Tulla he asks?"
"If we are this close and 4500 then that would make us about here, about one range and two lots of TV towers out, oh boy... surely someone would have bumped us by now!"
As if summonsed the Gods from on high spoke..
"Aircraft in the vicinity of NW of Tullamarine Airport, 10 miles and 4500 feet, this is Melbourne Radar, please Identify"
Almost instantaneously as if triggered by the first voice, on the other selection on our radio was Melbourne Flight Services frequency became active featuring our call sign as well.
"ABC, ABC this is..... " mmmm
We duely accepted our new set of directions and then set course for Bacchus Marsh, some what embarrassed.
With much trepidation, I complied with the controllers request and I dialled the number he had given me. I was sure just about every pilot in the southern hemishere knew about our incursion into controlled airspace by now. I asked for Mebourne centre as requested and spoke to the approach supervisor. He asked what happened and I told him all about our transponder failing and our not switching the unit off. Mode C had failed so our unit was still live, but failing to transmit the required information. We were told to keep our code but decend, they handed us over and somewhere along the line we bumped mode C back to life. We hadnt done anything about changing the code. That was how we were later identified.. with a fully functioning Mode C.
To add fuel to the smoldering wrecks of our confidence, we cancelled SAR with the folks we last spoke to. They failed to pass the message on and phase one was activated. We were bounced on this too. To his credit, the chap was rather nice, much different to the horror stories we heard about from previous adventurers to the south.
He asked few questions about the plane, wished us well, and we retired hosted by the Bacchus Marsh Gliding Club! Thanks again!
Duely overfed at breakfast, refreshed the following morning, we set off for the Apple Isle. We followed the islands around, had our SAR intervals and all went well. We enjoyed the coastline, awed that such a place of beauty show have such a nasty reputation. Also bolstered by the fact we'd flown across a rather large puddle of water! We continued in our newly confident manner until we were within spitting distance of Devonport. We flew around for a bit, around and around... well it was under the fog somplace! Then as the saying goes, if you dont like the weather now... wait ten minutes, so as if on cue, it cleared off the strip and we landed...
Four merry days we spent... and the trip home was all going well... until we hit Wagga again... or didnt hit it. We had perused over the weather and noted the occasional CB and TS wandering about the west. No other notes were made on any of our airports enroute so we had time and fuel to spare by a huge margin.
We watched a line of storms building up to the west of Wagga, and decided that given they were now meeting up with a stalled line near Canberra, we should put down at Wagga and sit it out. Thats what we thought was the prudent thing to do....
As airport after airport around us was closed due storms, we were asking Wagga fairly early for clearance. The denied us... again we asked... again we were turned away... the bak runners and rpt aircraft had priority. Everyone it seemed was running for wagga. There were a few little VFRs like us which were repeatedly turned away as the weather around us worstened. We asked a couple of aircraft ahead of us what the going was like.
Something like shaken and stirred came to mind. All our training to never let a door shut behind us, never let the weather get ahead of you and close you in... and never let your lack of experience get you into trouble....
We weaved our way between cells, and eventually hit clear air about 25 mile from home...
That was the first of many learning experiences... over the years Ive learn't never be afraid to ask, never be declared to yell for help, even if you have been denied clearance, if they cant give you what you want, they usually have a solution. Never take it for granted when someone tells you something is broke, that it will stay broken.
And the day you fail to learn something, and the flying is no longer fun or rewarding... find something else of value... life was meant to be lived and this I found was one of the best ways to do it!
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OZBUSDRIVER
One other thing to remember those of us lucky enough to be floating around with 2 crew have it alot easier than any single pilot operation, true in the approach stage the procedures and calls can get a bit time consuming depending on the SOP's but most of the time, if you need a hand these guys should be well positioned to give you relevant info that can help and teach you.
The one thing that always annoys me is when some sod is unshore of what is happening and tells you what they think you want to hear just to try and look good, the fact you nearly run into them because they did something different to what they said they were doing never crosses there mind.
remember also that rpt aircraft aren't going to hang around in the air any longer than they have to if it all gets to much simply hold out of the way for a few minutes till the aircraft is in the circuit or on the ground, but i dont think it will come to that, if it is a good crew and you sound like you are new to it (which we can usually tell and all of us remember being there) they will probably tell you what they are going to do and give advise on what you could do keep everything comfy, it will be no sweat, it will be kind of like a friendly controller.
If in doubt of anything just tell the other aircraft your concerns, we all were new at it once, and realise how scary it can be.
we are all just people happy to help each other and when you get on the ground as long as its not a quick turn around, most guys/girls would have any objection to a chat or a quick look at there aircraft, I know i would have no objection to a new pilot having a look through my aircraft, or just having a chat.
all the best
Duke
One other thing to remember those of us lucky enough to be floating around with 2 crew have it alot easier than any single pilot operation, true in the approach stage the procedures and calls can get a bit time consuming depending on the SOP's but most of the time, if you need a hand these guys should be well positioned to give you relevant info that can help and teach you.
The one thing that always annoys me is when some sod is unshore of what is happening and tells you what they think you want to hear just to try and look good, the fact you nearly run into them because they did something different to what they said they were doing never crosses there mind.
remember also that rpt aircraft aren't going to hang around in the air any longer than they have to if it all gets to much simply hold out of the way for a few minutes till the aircraft is in the circuit or on the ground, but i dont think it will come to that, if it is a good crew and you sound like you are new to it (which we can usually tell and all of us remember being there) they will probably tell you what they are going to do and give advise on what you could do keep everything comfy, it will be no sweat, it will be kind of like a friendly controller.
If in doubt of anything just tell the other aircraft your concerns, we all were new at it once, and realise how scary it can be.
we are all just people happy to help each other and when you get on the ground as long as its not a quick turn around, most guys/girls would have any objection to a chat or a quick look at there aircraft, I know i would have no objection to a new pilot having a look through my aircraft, or just having a chat.
all the best
Duke
Hi Oz
Make your flight to suit YOUR timetable.
Make all the appropriate radio calls, particulalry on MBZ.
Have the VOR/DME dialled up (or study their function if you don't know how to use them yet being a new PPL) and be prepared BEFORE you are asked to respond with your:
1. Distance
2. Radial (or direction (SSE, NW etc)
3. Intentions.
You can study up on the above before you get airborne!
Remember though that an RPT aircraft can conduct a straight in approach to an MBZ or CTAF. It must give way to you if you are on downwind, but it's airmanship that, within reason, you'd extend downwind and come in behind him (as he'll be flying twice as fast as you down final).
If in doubt, say where you are, height and intentions, and don't feel threatened by anything big that's burning jet fuel. You have as much right to be there as they do!
Enjoy!
Make your flight to suit YOUR timetable.
Make all the appropriate radio calls, particulalry on MBZ.
Have the VOR/DME dialled up (or study their function if you don't know how to use them yet being a new PPL) and be prepared BEFORE you are asked to respond with your:
1. Distance
2. Radial (or direction (SSE, NW etc)
3. Intentions.
You can study up on the above before you get airborne!
Remember though that an RPT aircraft can conduct a straight in approach to an MBZ or CTAF. It must give way to you if you are on downwind, but it's airmanship that, within reason, you'd extend downwind and come in behind him (as he'll be flying twice as fast as you down final).
If in doubt, say where you are, height and intentions, and don't feel threatened by anything big that's burning jet fuel. You have as much right to be there as they do!
Enjoy!
