Aviation student numbers to be capped
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Aviation student numbers to be capped
In-flight aviation student numbers to be capped
Friday, 3 October 2003, 2:17 pm
Press Release: New Zealand Government
2 October 2003 Media Statement
In-flight aviation student numbers to be capped
Limits are to be put on the number of government-funded in-flight aviation training places from next year while the Tertiary Education Commission determines the number of places it will fund in the longer term and whether aviation student access to Student Loan Scheme should be retained, Associate Education (Tertiary Education) Minister Steve Maharey said today.
The Commission has been reviewing funding for aviation courses and qualifications comprising an in-flight training component because of concern about the large debt some students have incurred through the Student Loan Scheme, acerbated by the steep growth in aviation student numbers. The Ministry of Social Development recently compiled figures for 2002 that reveal that helicopter students account for all the top 10 loan drawdowns in that year, with one exceptional drawing of $136,497 in a single year. Trainee numbers are currently uncapped and it is expected that nearly 1,000 training places will funded this year.
Steve Maharey said the number of government-funded full-time aviation students will be limited to 775 in 2004.
“Next year all publicly funded aviation training providers will receive a capped amount of funding for their existing students, plus some funding for new students based on enrolments between 2001 and 2003.
“The aviation training funding cap is only for aviation courses and qualifications comprising an in-flight training component. There are currently the equivalent of 425 full-time students undertaking courses inclusive of in-flight training who will not have completed their qualification by the end of the 2003, and they will receive priority-funding arrangements in 2004. The remaining places will be available for new enrolments.
“The reduction in the total number of aviation students to receive funding next year reflects concern about the rapidly growing number of students being trained in what are very high cost courses. The cap for 2004 has been set following discussion with aviation industry groups and aviation training providers.
“Changes are also being made to the funding for compressed courses to prevent aviation students have run up excessively large student loans in a single academic year.
“Most tuition fees currently charged for most aviation courses are above the new fee and course costs maxima announced in August. As with all other courses in this situation, aviation fees that are above the maxima will be able to remain at 2003 levels but not increase.
“These interim measures for 2004 have been put in place while longer-term funding arrangements are determined. The Tertiary Education Commission, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Social Development, together with the aviation industry, will work on a long-term public investment strategy for aviation training, including a realistic estimation of the aviation industry’s demand for helicopter and aeroplane pilots. The Aviation Industry Association is now working with its members to construct a model that will help determine the future needs of the industry. This review will be completed by the end of the year.
“Aviation providers will be obliged to tell prospective students wanting to being study next year that there is no guarantee they will continue to be able to access the Student Loan Scheme in 2005 and beyond or have a guaranteed government-funded place. The government intends giving serious consideration to whether the student loan scheme is the appropriate system for funding the practical component of pilot training for both private and airline licences,” Steve Maharey said.
Information about the changes to funding for in-flight aviation training has been sent to training providers and industry stakeholder groups today.
Friday, 3 October 2003, 2:17 pm
Press Release: New Zealand Government
2 October 2003 Media Statement
In-flight aviation student numbers to be capped
Limits are to be put on the number of government-funded in-flight aviation training places from next year while the Tertiary Education Commission determines the number of places it will fund in the longer term and whether aviation student access to Student Loan Scheme should be retained, Associate Education (Tertiary Education) Minister Steve Maharey said today.
The Commission has been reviewing funding for aviation courses and qualifications comprising an in-flight training component because of concern about the large debt some students have incurred through the Student Loan Scheme, acerbated by the steep growth in aviation student numbers. The Ministry of Social Development recently compiled figures for 2002 that reveal that helicopter students account for all the top 10 loan drawdowns in that year, with one exceptional drawing of $136,497 in a single year. Trainee numbers are currently uncapped and it is expected that nearly 1,000 training places will funded this year.
Steve Maharey said the number of government-funded full-time aviation students will be limited to 775 in 2004.
“Next year all publicly funded aviation training providers will receive a capped amount of funding for their existing students, plus some funding for new students based on enrolments between 2001 and 2003.
“The aviation training funding cap is only for aviation courses and qualifications comprising an in-flight training component. There are currently the equivalent of 425 full-time students undertaking courses inclusive of in-flight training who will not have completed their qualification by the end of the 2003, and they will receive priority-funding arrangements in 2004. The remaining places will be available for new enrolments.
“The reduction in the total number of aviation students to receive funding next year reflects concern about the rapidly growing number of students being trained in what are very high cost courses. The cap for 2004 has been set following discussion with aviation industry groups and aviation training providers.
“Changes are also being made to the funding for compressed courses to prevent aviation students have run up excessively large student loans in a single academic year.
“Most tuition fees currently charged for most aviation courses are above the new fee and course costs maxima announced in August. As with all other courses in this situation, aviation fees that are above the maxima will be able to remain at 2003 levels but not increase.
“These interim measures for 2004 have been put in place while longer-term funding arrangements are determined. The Tertiary Education Commission, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Social Development, together with the aviation industry, will work on a long-term public investment strategy for aviation training, including a realistic estimation of the aviation industry’s demand for helicopter and aeroplane pilots. The Aviation Industry Association is now working with its members to construct a model that will help determine the future needs of the industry. This review will be completed by the end of the year.
“Aviation providers will be obliged to tell prospective students wanting to being study next year that there is no guarantee they will continue to be able to access the Student Loan Scheme in 2005 and beyond or have a guaranteed government-funded place. The government intends giving serious consideration to whether the student loan scheme is the appropriate system for funding the practical component of pilot training for both private and airline licences,” Steve Maharey said.
Information about the changes to funding for in-flight aviation training has been sent to training providers and industry stakeholder groups today.
Sounds like they actually believed Ms. King.....
Capped to 775 in 2004. What a joke as of today's date there were 6101 ATPL & CPL holders in New Zealand and only 2244 held current medicals (ie are able to work, not have actual jobs).
Therefore even if you believe that all licensed pilots with current medicals are employed it can be concluded that they expect an increase each year of 34% of the current industry. Wouldn't that be great.
Why did Mr. Maharey only talk to the training providers !!!!
May I suggest that we investigate why 63% of the licensed pilots are NOT employed.
This is ridiculous
Capped to 775 in 2004. What a joke as of today's date there were 6101 ATPL & CPL holders in New Zealand and only 2244 held current medicals (ie are able to work, not have actual jobs).
Therefore even if you believe that all licensed pilots with current medicals are employed it can be concluded that they expect an increase each year of 34% of the current industry. Wouldn't that be great.
Why did Mr. Maharey only talk to the training providers !!!!
May I suggest that we investigate why 63% of the licensed pilots are NOT employed.
This is ridiculous
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these flying schools providing full funding have shagged the lower levels of the industry.....far to many instructors, and CPL's for the jobs, and the worst part is they have been sucked into thinking that there will be a job flying a 737 at the end of their course.
no wonder instructors struggle to get paid more than aminimum wage....especially when these hairy arse school boys still living at home with mummy can afford to work for free to get there hours up.......what happened to the good keen cpl student who saved and slaved to gather their hours... at least you knew they were keen....not like this latest bunch of easy roaders who wander around with their hand out!!!
no wonder instructors struggle to get paid more than aminimum wage....especially when these hairy arse school boys still living at home with mummy can afford to work for free to get there hours up.......what happened to the good keen cpl student who saved and slaved to gather their hours... at least you knew they were keen....not like this latest bunch of easy roaders who wander around with their hand out!!!
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The days of working for your flying are over I think Clownair. However there are still a few of them out there working and slowly slogging their guts out to get their CPL.
I think Massey has a lot to ask for when it comes to the 733 thing. They might be capping it to 775 students per year but when you think about it only about 30% of those will actually continue in the industry after they realise how shizza the pay is @ lower levels.
Splat.
I think Massey has a lot to ask for when it comes to the 733 thing. They might be capping it to 775 students per year but when you think about it only about 30% of those will actually continue in the industry after they realise how shizza the pay is @ lower levels.
Splat.
just a groundhog- where have you got your figures from?
Surely you haven't just simply assumed that those who hold either ATPL's or CPL's but do not hold a current medical do so because they do not have a job?
Are you suggesting that there is 4000 odd pilot's waiting for the call up??
You are no better at interpreting statistic's than Ms. King!!!
I think you need to do a little more research than glancing at the CAA website.
May I suggest that we investigate why 63% of the licensed pilots are NOT employed.
Are you suggesting that there is 4000 odd pilot's waiting for the call up??
You are no better at interpreting statistic's than Ms. King!!!
I think you need to do a little more research than glancing at the CAA website.
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clownair
There are still some of us out there working to finance the CPL (well, c-cat now) but there are times when I wish I took the easy option and went for the loan. With so many 19 yo CPL's out there this 23 yo is starting to feel a little geriatric. However, I suppose it will make it all the more satasfying when I finally get there.
Moan over
There are still some of us out there working to finance the CPL (well, c-cat now) but there are times when I wish I took the easy option and went for the loan. With so many 19 yo CPL's out there this 23 yo is starting to feel a little geriatric. However, I suppose it will make it all the more satasfying when I finally get there.
Moan over
At the risk of sounding like a pompous arse, and trying not to disclose my sources …..
2001 Census occupation data states: 1608 Pilots and 210 Flight instructors (fixed wing). This was within 1% of the numbers who held current medicals.
Lifetime licenses were issued since 5 Nov 92.
Of the total numbers who hold lifetime licenses 401 are older than 60 yrs. (those with current medicals not included)
Those holders who do not live in NZ: 708.
So yes I was being dramatic by stating that NZ had 4000 unemployed pilots looking for work, we only have 3000 odd.
If you conclude that over half this number decided that it wasn't worth spending the 60 - 80 thousand to obtain the license and that they'd like to pump petrol instead then we only have 1500 looking for work. (about the total that are currently working)
This number is STILL too much.
Statistics are a wonderful thing.
2001 Census occupation data states: 1608 Pilots and 210 Flight instructors (fixed wing). This was within 1% of the numbers who held current medicals.
Lifetime licenses were issued since 5 Nov 92.
Of the total numbers who hold lifetime licenses 401 are older than 60 yrs. (those with current medicals not included)
Those holders who do not live in NZ: 708.
So yes I was being dramatic by stating that NZ had 4000 unemployed pilots looking for work, we only have 3000 odd.
If you conclude that over half this number decided that it wasn't worth spending the 60 - 80 thousand to obtain the license and that they'd like to pump petrol instead then we only have 1500 looking for work. (about the total that are currently working)
This number is STILL too much.
Statistics are a wonderful thing.
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I read in the herald that they are allowing for 700-800 new pilots per year to replace all the retiring baby boomers. However the 775 limit seems to ignore those (including myself and tat2k3) who are doing it the old fashioned way!
I don't know any numbers, but I would guess there are a fair few of us who are avoiding a huge loan. This would place the total new CPLs well above the proposed 700-800 per year (far too high anyway!)
tat2k3 - can't agree more about the age thing (I'm 23 too)... but it's the sheer numbers that scares me - jobs are scarce enough without having even more loan funded competition shooting up the ranks faster than us!
Still, I reckon we'll be in a better position in 15 years, paying off the mortgage as opposed to the loan (compounding at 7%)
Oh for a silver spoon!
I don't know any numbers, but I would guess there are a fair few of us who are avoiding a huge loan. This would place the total new CPLs well above the proposed 700-800 per year (far too high anyway!)
tat2k3 - can't agree more about the age thing (I'm 23 too)... but it's the sheer numbers that scares me - jobs are scarce enough without having even more loan funded competition shooting up the ranks faster than us!
Still, I reckon we'll be in a better position in 15 years, paying off the mortgage as opposed to the loan (compounding at 7%)
Oh for a silver spoon!
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Yes but with the success rate of these flying schools, they
need to enrol 775 to get 50 suitable people for a career in
aviation!!
(committed people 
)
The problem is you have people who see an
ad in the paper or on the radio and think..yeah, why not!?
RE:
saudi ****
My opinion;
They need an INDEPENDENT screening process for the
loan scheme, or no scheme at all!!
need to enrol 775 to get 50 suitable people for a career in
aviation!!
(committed people )The problem is you have people who see an
ad in the paper or on the radio and think..yeah, why not!?
RE:
saudi **** My opinion;
They need an INDEPENDENT screening process for the
loan scheme, or no scheme at all!!
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How about having a commitment test?
e.g. to get a loan, you must first fund and pass all the CPL theory exams.
Would this weed out most of the time/money wasters?
Having said that, I still don't really see the point of taking out a huge loan for entry into an industry that is extremely difficult to make any money in...
e.g. to get a loan, you must first fund and pass all the CPL theory exams.
Would this weed out most of the time/money wasters?
Having said that, I still don't really see the point of taking out a huge loan for entry into an industry that is extremely difficult to make any money in...
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So how will the 775 places be allcoated. ie will school ABC recieve X amount of places for fully funded students, will it be first in first served or each school can take upto 20 etc?
775 is still a fair few people per year - Are there even that many people enrolling each year at the present point in time.
Its been said a thousand times but Dupres idea really does have credit.
775 is still a fair few people per year - Are there even that many people enrolling each year at the present point in time.
Its been said a thousand times but Dupres idea really does have credit.
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Oh yes it has been said many times, screening of new entrants into the industry is required. However this is something I can't see happening due to our airy fairy governments policy on equal oportunities.
We should all see the big picture, the industry will not really be affectted. Only about 20% of those hopefulls will make it out into the industry loan or no loan. (the people out there paying for it out of their own pocket, good onya, keep it up) .Perhaps even one day when you do get an interview with an airline, they may just ask how you payed for your flying.
@ the end of the day if you are one of the few who want it bad enough you will hang around.
Remembering after they come out of training they still have to do the GA thing for a few years and if your hearts not in it, you will not survive.
We should all see the big picture, the industry will not really be affectted. Only about 20% of those hopefulls will make it out into the industry loan or no loan. (the people out there paying for it out of their own pocket, good onya, keep it up) .Perhaps even one day when you do get an interview with an airline, they may just ask how you payed for your flying.
@ the end of the day if you are one of the few who want it bad enough you will hang around.
Remembering after they come out of training they still have to do the GA thing for a few years and if your hearts not in it, you will not survive.
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Too right Splat!!
Gettin paid $20 a month for 3 flying hours, and having to be at the office 8am to 5 pm while being paid nothing surely will sort the pansies from the real men...
welcome to G.A!!
Those that are fully committed will find a way around that..
Hope Maccas has places for 775 people per year!
Gettin paid $20 a month for 3 flying hours, and having to be at the office 8am to 5 pm while being paid nothing surely will sort the pansies from the real men...
welcome to G.A!!
Those that are fully committed will find a way around that..
Hope Maccas has places for 775 people per year!
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Does anyone have any figures on how many new jobs come up in NZ and Aus every year? (last couple of years)
If I took a wild stab in the dark I'd say uuuuumm, 40 and 200 respectively.
If I took a wild stab in the dark I'd say uuuuumm, 40 and 200 respectively.
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Shucks .. where do I start ..
Some of you got your knickers on to tight? This seems like the number 1 bitch issue in this forum.
The final success of someone in the aviation industry has absolutely nothing to do with how they paid for there training. Nor will it determine whether pilot A having paid for there training themselves is any better than B who got a student loan.
I am absolutely disgusted ( why am I not surprised?) in the way you people ( i would like to use the word pilot , but I though pilots where professionals ) are treating such an issue.
If you believe the number of aviation students getting student funding is going to impact whether there will be a job for you at the end of the tunnel I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself.
I have a student loan but I don't feel guilty about the fact that I may get a job before any of you. The only reason I get a job before any of you is because I would have worked my arse off to get that job like all pilots .. paying or non paying have done before.
/rant over
Some of you got your knickers on to tight? This seems like the number 1 bitch issue in this forum.
The final success of someone in the aviation industry has absolutely nothing to do with how they paid for there training. Nor will it determine whether pilot A having paid for there training themselves is any better than B who got a student loan.
I am absolutely disgusted ( why am I not surprised?) in the way you people ( i would like to use the word pilot , but I though pilots where professionals ) are treating such an issue.
If you believe the number of aviation students getting student funding is going to impact whether there will be a job for you at the end of the tunnel I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself.
I have a student loan but I don't feel guilty about the fact that I may get a job before any of you. The only reason I get a job before any of you is because I would have worked my arse off to get that job like all pilots .. paying or non paying have done before.
/rant over
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Yes flyboy-nz, how you paid for your training shouldnt matter,
but if you get to the job stage then you are a successful
product of the loan scheme.
However...
If you fail more exams than you pass, cannot be bothered
putting any effort in whilst getting heavily in debt at the
taxpayers expense you SHOULD be told to move on!
The idea of passing theory before any flying is a darn good one
but if you get to the job stage then you are a successful
product of the loan scheme.
However...
If you fail more exams than you pass, cannot be bothered
putting any effort in whilst getting heavily in debt at the
taxpayers expense you SHOULD be told to move on!
The idea of passing theory before any flying is a darn good one
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I think you've got your knickers on too tight flyboy-nz...
The number 1 bitch issue is the NUMBER of people that do the loan just for fun and have no serious commitment to do the hard yards and get their hours before they can have a shot at an airline job..
I agree with anti-skid, if you go out there and make it happen, you are one of the quoted - "20%" of the loan scheme that is successful..
Just as a general observation, I was with a large flying school when the fully funded loan scheme came into effect. Our intake numbered about 17-18 people... 15 of those went on to finish and complete the course. About 8 of them are now flying in the NZ aviation scene, some are overseas flying in their home countries, and the others have completed the course but are no longer flying cause they can't be bothered trying to get into the G.A scene.
The course after us was the first fully funded loan scheme intake. The intake number was in the order of 30-35 people...
By the end of the first year.. at least 15-20 people of the intake had dropped out...
Thats a lot of time wasters and money wasters... 3-4 dropped out of our course of 17-18 people, and 15-20 out of their course of 30-35 people
I'm not sure on the numbers on the second intake who finally got jobs in the industry.. but I have seen a few of them in the industry working now...
I'm sure the final product between our two intakes was OK, or else the ones who are flying now, wouldn't have jobs...
By passing theory first then letting them zap around the sky turning AVGAS to noise.. you'd be able to sort the serious ones from the joyriders...
The number 1 bitch issue is the NUMBER of people that do the loan just for fun and have no serious commitment to do the hard yards and get their hours before they can have a shot at an airline job..
I agree with anti-skid, if you go out there and make it happen, you are one of the quoted - "20%" of the loan scheme that is successful..
Just as a general observation, I was with a large flying school when the fully funded loan scheme came into effect. Our intake numbered about 17-18 people... 15 of those went on to finish and complete the course. About 8 of them are now flying in the NZ aviation scene, some are overseas flying in their home countries, and the others have completed the course but are no longer flying cause they can't be bothered trying to get into the G.A scene.
The course after us was the first fully funded loan scheme intake. The intake number was in the order of 30-35 people...
By the end of the first year.. at least 15-20 people of the intake had dropped out...
Thats a lot of time wasters and money wasters... 3-4 dropped out of our course of 17-18 people, and 15-20 out of their course of 30-35 people
I'm not sure on the numbers on the second intake who finally got jobs in the industry.. but I have seen a few of them in the industry working now...
I'm sure the final product between our two intakes was OK, or else the ones who are flying now, wouldn't have jobs...
By passing theory first then letting them zap around the sky turning AVGAS to noise.. you'd be able to sort the serious ones from the joyriders...