Pilot Shortage looms for NZ
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Mahary is quite right.
The industry (airlines) should be taking more responsibility in training their own.
Qantas had a cadet scheme back in the 60's because of a shortage of future pilots. There training was excellent.
No pilots in those days payed for an airline type rating and a lot of airlines were employing pilots without completed instrument ratings and giving them further training.
Why should the taxpayer be funding individuals for their so called chosen career when they b*gger off overseas.
Its time we became realistic. Its time that one had to crawl over broken glass to get the qualifications and the job again. One might appreciate what they have instead of expecting things to fall into their lap while doing nothing.
GOOD ON YOU STEVE!!!!!!!
The industry (airlines) should be taking more responsibility in training their own.
Qantas had a cadet scheme back in the 60's because of a shortage of future pilots. There training was excellent.
No pilots in those days payed for an airline type rating and a lot of airlines were employing pilots without completed instrument ratings and giving them further training.
Why should the taxpayer be funding individuals for their so called chosen career when they b*gger off overseas.
Its time we became realistic. Its time that one had to crawl over broken glass to get the qualifications and the job again. One might appreciate what they have instead of expecting things to fall into their lap while doing nothing.
GOOD ON YOU STEVE!!!!!!!
This report does sound like the start-up dribble for justifying more money spent on "Commissions" or "Inquiries" and the like.
The Government should simply reduce alcohol tax to keep the public in a continual inebriated state instead of throwing money at these spin doctors.
Taxpayers have some responsibility...
Air NZ gets free pilots already!! They have absolutely no cadet scheme nor do they put a concerted effort into the GA sector to promote growth.
She must be dreaming.
Tape it shut - I totally agree. There has to be one or two training establishments around worried about their gravy train drying up.
The Government should simply reduce alcohol tax to keep the public in a continual inebriated state instead of throwing money at these spin doctors.
"Taxpayers have some responsibility, but the industry has to pay as well," said Maharey, who was briefed on Friday on the association's findings.
Air NZ gets free pilots already!! They have absolutely no cadet scheme nor do they put a concerted effort into the GA sector to promote growth.
King said it took six to 10 years to train a pilot for jet operations.
Tape it shut - I totally agree. There has to be one or two training establishments around worried about their gravy train drying up.
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The E-mail address for The Minister being lied to is
[email protected]
Please feel free to send your comments to him directly.
If he believes Mrs King then I have some coastal real estate for sale that he might like to purchase.
[email protected]
Please feel free to send your comments to him directly.
If he believes Mrs King then I have some coastal real estate for sale that he might like to purchase.
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Training
Guys & Gals,
How does a building firm train a spotty faced school leaver?
Well done, good answer- CORRECT.
-Through an apprenticeship
ie low pay, train at the employers expense and work under supervision, gaining full trade qualification at the end.
In return the empolyer expects the newly trained tradesman (appologies - TRADESPERSON) to remain in his/her empoly for some years AFTER completion of training.
A carpenter is taught skills and knowledge of th ebuilding industry. A pilots SKILLS are his/her flying ability, and KNOWLEDGE is of aviation regulations and acft system.
Does the govt subsidise the building or any other industry to train new personel?
Remember Air NZ is the ONLY airline to EVER pay its directors -ala FAT CATS- a bonus for 'Trying hard".
Must go for my afternoon 'REST' before tonights all night duty.
How does a building firm train a spotty faced school leaver?
Well done, good answer- CORRECT.
-Through an apprenticeship
ie low pay, train at the employers expense and work under supervision, gaining full trade qualification at the end.
In return the empolyer expects the newly trained tradesman (appologies - TRADESPERSON) to remain in his/her empoly for some years AFTER completion of training.
A carpenter is taught skills and knowledge of th ebuilding industry. A pilots SKILLS are his/her flying ability, and KNOWLEDGE is of aviation regulations and acft system.
Does the govt subsidise the building or any other industry to train new personel?
Remember Air NZ is the ONLY airline to EVER pay its directors -ala FAT CATS- a bonus for 'Trying hard".
Must go for my afternoon 'REST' before tonights all night duty.
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bateman,
the airline I now fly for has 250 hour kiddies in the RHS of the jet too, except the training here involves the IP pulling out the news paper at 10000 on the way up and stowing it at 10000 on the way down. Whats more scary is that after only a couple of years, these guys get thier command and guess what - same type of training. ie - none.
the airline I now fly for has 250 hour kiddies in the RHS of the jet too, except the training here involves the IP pulling out the news paper at 10000 on the way up and stowing it at 10000 on the way down. Whats more scary is that after only a couple of years, these guys get thier command and guess what - same type of training. ie - none.
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Now there is a scary thought! If Im on an "El Cheapo Air" flight from Luton to Ibiza and the captain becomes incapacitated,
the guy in charge has 250 hours!
the guy in charge has 250 hours!
The testing is the issue - I'd trust the testing of these guys who are trained to perform in one specific type to a specific set of parameters. They have to demonstrate competence, so whilst it may be scary, they have been deemed up to it.
(PS anti-skid are you my long lost brother????
)
Bateman
250 hour cadet is good at flying around at 250kts on a SIDs,follow a green line to a STAR and running down an ILS with ceiling and XW limits. Expecting too much more is fantasy.
My opinion. It takes a long time for that crew member to become highly competant and confident in an environment other than that which is benign on a STAR/SID, to an abnormal situation in whatever form. Glass can become information overload in an abnormal situation. Basic airmanship and skill levels not to be dismissed. Trouble is these aircraft are too reliable but........
Let's talk about Cadets and air safety. The vulnerable years when their experience and confidence is very low. How about case examples? I will start with one. There is an operator in the Middle East that came close to going broke. It is the only operator to have multiple Airbus write offs-a cadet watched a Captain fly into the water and on the other occassion the aircraft veered off the runway with cadet at the controls.
There is risk with inexperience. With the way pay and conditions are going for 737 pilots in Oceana, get the feeling General Aviation is upgrading with the inherent risk.
250 hour cadet is good at flying around at 250kts on a SIDs,follow a green line to a STAR and running down an ILS with ceiling and XW limits. Expecting too much more is fantasy.
My opinion. It takes a long time for that crew member to become highly competant and confident in an environment other than that which is benign on a STAR/SID, to an abnormal situation in whatever form. Glass can become information overload in an abnormal situation. Basic airmanship and skill levels not to be dismissed. Trouble is these aircraft are too reliable but........
Let's talk about Cadets and air safety. The vulnerable years when their experience and confidence is very low. How about case examples? I will start with one. There is an operator in the Middle East that came close to going broke. It is the only operator to have multiple Airbus write offs-a cadet watched a Captain fly into the water and on the other occassion the aircraft veered off the runway with cadet at the controls.
There is risk with inexperience. With the way pay and conditions are going for 737 pilots in Oceana, get the feeling General Aviation is upgrading with the inherent risk.
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The testing is the issue - I'd trust the testing of these guys who are trained to perform in one specific type to a specific set of parameters
before learning to crawl
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Irrespective of how factual or otherwise this report may be, there is one thing that always seems to be overlooked when the topic arises: When industry observers talk about the impending shortage of pilots, they are usually referring to a shortage of EXPERIENCED pilots. We all know there will never be a shortage of pilots as a whole.
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Gnadenburg and FatEric - I agree with both of you, in that a guy with 250 hours is going to have less chance of sorting out a major emergency than a guy with 5000 hours. But we all make mistakes, the Qantas crew that ended up on the Bangkok golfcourse had over 30000 hours between them (cpt/fo/so). And the F/O had 8973 at the time, of which 5187 were on the 744. So experience is no guarantee against error, but it is good insurance.
My point was that a 250 hour guy is CAPABLE of doing the job. He may not be the best pilot currently available on the market, but he is capable.
A good parrallel is the way many companies handle command upgrades. Companies without strict seniority may simply pick the best f/o available at the time, regardless of seniority. Whereas, a good company will pick the most senior f/o capable of doing the job.
I dont like the situation where guys with 250 hours are getting jobs on jets. I feel those jops should go to people like myself, with several years experience. But thats not to say they are not able to do the job.
OzOcker - Im not sure what your point was.
My point was that a 250 hour guy is CAPABLE of doing the job. He may not be the best pilot currently available on the market, but he is capable.
A good parrallel is the way many companies handle command upgrades. Companies without strict seniority may simply pick the best f/o available at the time, regardless of seniority. Whereas, a good company will pick the most senior f/o capable of doing the job.
I dont like the situation where guys with 250 hours are getting jobs on jets. I feel those jops should go to people like myself, with several years experience. But thats not to say they are not able to do the job.
OzOcker - Im not sure what your point was.
Wasn't the QF 1 Captain a cadet? Couldn't resist.
Inexperienced pilots take longer to upgrade too. So a rapidly expanding company like Pacific Blue can only go so far with inexperience. They will need people who can upgrade. A 250 hour pilot won't in a hurry!
To deny the value of experience and safety will cost somebody. The pendulum has swung a little the other way-economics and airline politics versus common sense safety regarding suitable pilots with suitable levels of experience. Because the last few low cost start ups have gotten away with it doesn't mean the next will.
There are more jet accidents out there guys where inexperience a factor. Have you forgot or taking the stand of airline beancounters.
Inexperienced pilots take longer to upgrade too. So a rapidly expanding company like Pacific Blue can only go so far with inexperience. They will need people who can upgrade. A 250 hour pilot won't in a hurry!
To deny the value of experience and safety will cost somebody. The pendulum has swung a little the other way-economics and airline politics versus common sense safety regarding suitable pilots with suitable levels of experience. Because the last few low cost start ups have gotten away with it doesn't mean the next will.
There are more jet accidents out there guys where inexperience a factor. Have you forgot or taking the stand of airline beancounters.
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Pardon my ignorance ppruners but why dont we get the 200 hr guys to just go straight for the command. I mean the captain usually has all this bad experience he/she has accumulated over the years.
I trained at one of these places and yes they do a great job and yes I did well and no I don't regret it but do you know what? At 200 hrs you cant fly for sh!t. Just like you can't drive for sh!t when you first get you drivers licence.
The only reason the argument gets brought up now and again is that people are just too farking scared to go out into big bad crusty GA and have a go. Try convincing dad that a newly licenced car driver can do a better job than one with 5 years and 100,000ks under the belt (tried it - didnt work..got the bus). Or even better try that one with the insurance companies. They will laugh very loudly at your suggestion.
As for the shortage - oh Brother! Come on people! We aren't going to get into this crap again are we. Do you think maybe that its in some peoples interest to keep pumping out pimply faced pilots to keep wages and conditions down perhaps? DO YA THINK? Ding ding. Hey if a pilot shortage ever comes around it will be a funny day.
HAT
I trained at one of these places and yes they do a great job and yes I did well and no I don't regret it but do you know what? At 200 hrs you cant fly for sh!t. Just like you can't drive for sh!t when you first get you drivers licence.
The only reason the argument gets brought up now and again is that people are just too farking scared to go out into big bad crusty GA and have a go. Try convincing dad that a newly licenced car driver can do a better job than one with 5 years and 100,000ks under the belt (tried it - didnt work..got the bus). Or even better try that one with the insurance companies. They will laugh very loudly at your suggestion.
As for the shortage - oh Brother! Come on people! We aren't going to get into this crap again are we. Do you think maybe that its in some peoples interest to keep pumping out pimply faced pilots to keep wages and conditions down perhaps? DO YA THINK? Ding ding. Hey if a pilot shortage ever comes around it will be a funny day.
HAT
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Shortage/Smortage
No one is saying a 250 hr pilot is better than a 2500 or 25000 hr pilot.
Point is they are good enough to get licensed.
Or are we saying that the training is so mediocre that after 250 hrs they cannot fly? Does that mean we are licensing people that cannot fly?
Perhaps a 500 hr or 750 hr CPL is in order? What a joke.
Would like to hear some input on this from someone that has gone through the military system or a cadetship scheme. Regarding hrs vs equipment. Think it would open some eyes.
No one is saying a 250 hr pilot is better than a 2500 or 25000 hr pilot.
Point is they are good enough to get licensed.
Or are we saying that the training is so mediocre that after 250 hrs they cannot fly? Does that mean we are licensing people that cannot fly?
Perhaps a 500 hr or 750 hr CPL is in order? What a joke.
Would like to hear some input on this from someone that has gone through the military system or a cadetship scheme. Regarding hrs vs equipment. Think it would open some eyes.
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Shortage ?
Full credit to all those who are able to see right through this.
Firstly nz does not have and will not have a shortage of pilots on the global scale of things, the local scene may change from what it is now, ie lower job entry requirements but we will not be short.
With regard to placing 250 hr pilots on the right hand stool of a heavy it may be frightening to us hicks in the south pacific but come on how do you think the rest of the world operates. There is no difference between this and an apprentice scheme.
The New Zealand aviation industry has brought this situation upon themselves as with most other higher educated trades in nz, THEY NEED TO PAY PROPERLY. The main reason for people leaving nz is so that they can be payed what they are worth.
If we cap the student loans how do we train our doctors??????
The idea of giving full student loans to a limited number of trainee pilots is a good one as not all of us are living out of daddy's pocket, but 800 odd thats bollocks. Why not aquire the figures from the regionals as to how many they hired this year and fund that many for next year, a number of more like 200 im gessing this also allows for those who have there own funding and those who drop out.
Firstly nz does not have and will not have a shortage of pilots on the global scale of things, the local scene may change from what it is now, ie lower job entry requirements but we will not be short.
With regard to placing 250 hr pilots on the right hand stool of a heavy it may be frightening to us hicks in the south pacific but come on how do you think the rest of the world operates. There is no difference between this and an apprentice scheme.
The New Zealand aviation industry has brought this situation upon themselves as with most other higher educated trades in nz, THEY NEED TO PAY PROPERLY. The main reason for people leaving nz is so that they can be payed what they are worth.
If we cap the student loans how do we train our doctors??????
The idea of giving full student loans to a limited number of trainee pilots is a good one as not all of us are living out of daddy's pocket, but 800 odd thats bollocks. Why not aquire the figures from the regionals as to how many they hired this year and fund that many for next year, a number of more like 200 im gessing this also allows for those who have there own funding and those who drop out.
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Air Nelson (re)hired approx 18.
Don't know about Eagle. Say 10 ??
Air NZ / Freedom about ??? 80 ???
Cathay apparently 20 ???
And that was a huge year for NZ aviation.
Damn site fewer than 800!
If they get loans there should be some sort of goal setting and set achievement required or the loan gets pulled.
Plus some sort of pre-selection type interview to sort out the rich wanna-be kids and those that actually know a bit about the job.
Don't know about Eagle. Say 10 ??
Air NZ / Freedom about ??? 80 ???
Cathay apparently 20 ???
And that was a huge year for NZ aviation.
Damn site fewer than 800!
If they get loans there should be some sort of goal setting and set achievement required or the loan gets pulled.
Plus some sort of pre-selection type interview to sort out the rich wanna-be kids and those that actually know a bit about the job.
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grrrrrr, reading articles like that in the paper makes me angry 
As for pilots being poached from overseas, what a load of bollocks.
The pilots are leaving because the industry here is such a joke and going elsewhere for better pickings and hunting out those overseas airlines!
Should anyone wish to call up the Aviation Industry Association and abuse them for passing on such false information, their phone number is as follows
Wellington: 04 472 2707
As for pilots being poached from overseas, what a load of bollocks.
The pilots are leaving because the industry here is such a joke and going elsewhere for better pickings and hunting out those overseas airlines!
Should anyone wish to call up the Aviation Industry Association and abuse them for passing on such false information, their phone number is as follows
Wellington: 04 472 2707
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I think we're a little off track with this one.
The previous contributor is quite correct, there will be a lack of experienced pilots rather than a shortage of pilots in NZ.
Maybe some of us should put ourselves in the shoes of those at school aspiring to become a pilot. Surely any assistance that the aviation industry can gain from the NZ Government in regard to funding for new pilots is great.
Or do we want our future pilots to be only the sons/daughters of the wealthy or those with big balls to gain ridiculous overdrafts.
As we have seen in the NZ industry recently, a university scheme that attracts the wealthy, does not always produce the best product.
The previous contributor is quite correct, there will be a lack of experienced pilots rather than a shortage of pilots in NZ.
Maybe some of us should put ourselves in the shoes of those at school aspiring to become a pilot. Surely any assistance that the aviation industry can gain from the NZ Government in regard to funding for new pilots is great.
Or do we want our future pilots to be only the sons/daughters of the wealthy or those with big balls to gain ridiculous overdrafts.
As we have seen in the NZ industry recently, a university scheme that attracts the wealthy, does not always produce the best product.
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while it is valid that it will help those students pilots, the end result is that too many are helped, too many pilots come onto the market, the airlines keep the experience requirements high, and the lower level operators keep their pay low
decrease supply, experience requirements come down, and not so many of us are unemployed as a pilot!!!!
supply and demand
decrease supply, experience requirements come down, and not so many of us are unemployed as a pilot!!!!
supply and demand