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Fraud by Flying School

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Fraud by Flying School

Old 11th Sep 2018, 16:44
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Arrow Fraud by Flying School

My daughter has been undergoing CPL training at a flying school in Florida for last 8 months and I have spent about 23k USD for same. She is yet to receive her PPL. There seems to be nexus between the Instructors and management and they are finding petty faults in her flying skills and not letting her get past the check ride stage.

I have to make her do the PPL so I cant move her out of the school yet.
Please advise can she can move to Canada and take up the balance of training there? She is on M1 visa. Will she be allowed to earn and work there?
Whom should I complain to regarding this fraud as I have proof and supporting financial documents.
An early reply is solicited.
saby8 is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2018, 02:17
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I have sent you a private message with several contacts in Canada for your assistance.

can she can move to Canada and take up the balance of training there?
She could however there are a couple of ways to play the situation.

If she holds a first world passport your daughter may enter Canada as a visitor to train or study for up to six months without a student visa. Thereafter a student visa is needed although one may be obtained earlier and it may be advantageous to do so for the purpose of working in Canada as a flight instructor. An Electronic Travel Authorization (eTA) is needed when entering Canada by air only. The US ESTA does not count towards the Canadian eTA. There is a simple online application for the eTA and approval is normally received by email within minutes. In exceptional circumstances it may take days. The eTA is valid for five years unless the passport expires beforehand so apply straight away.

Your daughter will need a Canadian medical certificate before flying solo in Canada, or before being granted a Canadian private pilot licence. Without a Canadian private pilot licence she cannot undergo training towards any other rating or licence. An appointment with a Civil Aviation Medical Examiner (CAME) can take between a fortnight and a month to secure. It can take up to an additional six weeks for Transport Canada to issue the medical certificate. If your daughter will be in Canada during the time of expected receipt then make sure the address used for the certificate is the selected flight training unit in Canada.

There are numerous Canadian CAMEs in UK. A database of CAMEs, maintained by Transport Canada, is at: https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur....aspx?lang=eng

Arriving in Canada without a private pilot licence

Canadian Aviation Standard 421.26(9)(c) (link) states:

An applicant who does not hold a Private or higher pilot licence–Aeroplane issued by a contracting state may be credited foreign dual and solo aeroplane flight training time and aeroplane ground school time towards the knowledge and experience requirements for the issue of a Private Pilot Licence–Aeroplane, if the applicant provides certification from the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating–Aeroplane that all ground and flight training exercises have been satisfactorily reviewed.
It will be enormously helpful if the training records can be transferred from the existing school in the US. However, if the records are unobtainable then the Canadian flight training unit can rely on the personal flying logbook to establish which experience requirements have yet to be satisfied. A typical shortfall is the instrument training which is 5 hours for a Canadian private pilot licence.

Any outstanding solo flying will need to await the medical certificate. A written exam and flight test will then be needed to obtain the Canadian private pilot licence and only then can your daughter undergo further training towards other licences and additional ratings. The Industry Canada radio operator certificate (restricted) is easily obtained by sitting a short multi-choice exam within the flight training unit.

Arriving in Canada with a private pilot licence

Your daughter, once her experience matches the experience requirements for a Canadian private pilot licence (again, the shortfall is likely to be the instrument training), may apply to Transport Canada directly for a Canadian private pilot licence (not a foreign licence validation certificate). There is no need for a flight test.

Either way, any flight training received prior to the grant (by any Contracting State) of a private pilot licence cannot be credited towards the specific experience requirements for a Canadian commercial pilot licence or instrument rating. Logged hours however will count towards the necessary total times.

Termination of SEVIS record while in the United States

The Designated School Official (DSO) at the present US flight school will need to properly close your daughter's SEVIS record. See this document for a list of termination reasons. Your daughter must maintain status under the M1 visa until the SEVIS record is properly terminated. Then she must promptly leave the United States or apply for a change of status to a B–class visa. If she leaves the United States before taking up a job under OPT then all credit towards the practical training will be lost. Only in exceptional circumstances, after being admitted for six months, is it possible to transfer the M1 visa to another school. The present DSO or a DSO at another US flight school can advise. Note that your daughter must carry the I-20-M-N and her passport on her person while in the US on an M1 visa. Also check whether IRS form 8843 needs to be filed.

----

Here is a searchable Flight Training Units database maintained by Transport Canada: Flight Training Units Search

Contact details for TCCA regional offices can be found at: https://tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/o...egions-139.htm
selfin is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2018, 02:44
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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If you have evidence and do not simply rely on hearsay you can contact the FAA office and the POI ( Principle Operations Inspector) that has jurisdiction over the school.
But I can tell you now that will be hard to prove.
Schools like this have been giving Florida a bad name for many many years now and unfortunately it is relatively easy to cover your tracks as far as Training Records are concerned.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2018, 04:32
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Join Date: Sep 2018
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Saby, I'm really sorry to hear about this. I don't know what the average time is to get a PPL. But I did mine in Florida at local flight training school and completed my PPL in 5 weeks. It actually would of been 4 weeks but weather stopped it from happening. The school actaully advertised CPL in 6 months. And it took me nine. However, I also bought a plane and did my multi PPL during that time. Bear in mind, my times were fast because I grew up in an aviation family with a lot of resources.

Why go to Canada when you could simply go to another CFI at a handful of schools in the US and have them work with her. In the meantime, you could file a civil lawsuit for damages. This would the fastest most effective approach I think of. I'd compile a list of the "so called" deficiencies so the new CFI could address them as quickly as possible. And interview the CFI's beforehand to find someone that will be a good personality fit with her before you select someone.
pilotnyc is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2018, 03:28
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I have had students take much longer, and much shorter. Depends on the student, depends on the instructors, depends on how frequently flights can happen. 8 months seems much too long if it is full time training; part time, that could be average, or even short if someone flies once ever 2 weeks. Depends. Fraud? You could find out from another instructor at some other school in one hour of flying--or maybe even without going flying.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 19:10
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Saby8. Do you know how many hours she has total and how many hours she took before going solo?
suninmyeyes is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2018, 13:13
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Request to talk to the Chief Flight Instructor or better demand a written explanation for your daughter's apparent slow progress.

I have over 2000 hours of dual given and I can tell you from my personal experience that women (seem to) learn flying differently. I am not saying that they are less talented, but any man who's been in a (longer) relationship can tell you that the female logic is just different.

I had female students that were given up on, and they are now flying 777 or 787. They didn't need more time, just a (slightly) different learning approach. In most cases the devil was in the details.

If you receive an email reply that your daughter is slow/insecure etc (all the usual bs excuses) request that she gets an instructor with a different learning approach. You Sir are the parent/customer.
Squawk7777 is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2018, 13:56
  #8 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
If you have evidence and do not simply rely on hearsay you can contact the FAA office and the POI ( Principle Operations Inspector) that has jurisdiction over the school.
But I can tell you now that will be hard to prove.
Schools like this have been giving Florida a bad name for many many years now and unfortunately it is relatively easy to cover your tracks as far as Training Records are concerned.
The FAA has a responsibility to the public. Whenever an accident occurs with a student or fairly new certified pilot, the Feds will talk to the instructor. They should display the same responsibility whenever there is slow learning progress from a CFI. A CFI has to demonstrate sufficient and adequate skills as an instructor.

Worst case scenario, you could file a complaint with the FAA that the instructor doesn't demonstrate those skills. Getting on the FAA's radar is something no CFI would like to experience.
Squawk7777 is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2018, 16:22
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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You need to make a couple of phone calls

saby8, I am a former Canadian flight instructor (Toronto area), and completed my flight training in the US, Canada and Australia.

You definitely need to make a couple of phone calls ASAP. First, call the Chief Flight Instructor of the school and see if he can give you a reason for what is happening (beyond the usual vague excuses, such as failing her stage checks). You are paying the bill, and you and your daughter need to be respected as customers. If you are not satisfied with the response, I suggest calling the local FAA FSDO - Flight Standards District Office (google: FAA+FSDO for the phone number). Ask to speak to an FAA flight inspector, and give him/her specific details. Ask him/her what your daughter's school-transfer options are. You may even want to suggest that your daughter come to see him/her at the office (along with her log-book and passport).

Since your daughter is on an M-1 visa, she is obviously at a Part 141 school. I was briefly at a Part 141 school in Phoenix many years ago, and spoke to an Egyptian (male) student there who took over 70 hours to get his first solo. According to him, his instructor (also from the Middle East) was not letting him handle the controls and was essentially pumping him for flight-time. The student finally switched to an experienced flight instructor (also a jet charter pilot) and got his solo and private certificate without further ado in a few more hours.

Although the situation mentioned above is not typical, I have found from personal experience that many US Part 141 schools (especially in Florida and Arizona) that cater primarily to foreign students do not have the students' best interests in mind (the Egyptian student's issue should have been flagged by the Chief long before he'd logged 70 hours of dual). The quality of flight training is also typically poor, because they tend to guarantee every graduate an instructor job. Most students on M-1 visas complete their CPL, get an instructor rating and begin working for the school to get to 1,500 hrs. They typically have only 1 or 2 students each, so many unscrupulously do their best to pad the student's dual hours. Many foreign instructors at these Part 141 schools are also completely unpaid - the school does not declare them to be graduates to US immigration, does not do the paperwork to authorize OPT (optional practical training), so they are not legally able to work for money in the US. In other words, a student is paying for an instructor's time, but the school keeps 100% of that money - leaving no incentive for the foreign-student-turned-instructor to put any effort into his or her work.

How many hours has your daughter logged at this school? How much dual, how much solo? Are her other PPL requirements (night training, solo and dual cross-country hours, etc.) completed? Since it is a Part 141 course, I think she really needs to try to complete her PPL at this school (Part 61 would be much more flexible, but she is not eligible for that as a foreign student). So make all the noise you have to, in order to make that happen. Once that is done, you can decide whether you want her to switch to a Canadian flight school. Yes, she can legally be a flight training student in Canada on a Visitor's visa for up to 6 months (the Canadian consulate will issue a Visitor's visa with the added line "Category: SX-1 Student", which means student-exempt). With this, she will not be allowed to work in Canada. Otherwise, she can get a full student visa for Canada, which should allow her limited-time work opportunities, once she completes her "degree" (CPL).

Keep in mind that winter is approaching in Canada, and from personal experience as an instructor there I can confirm that the pace of flight training slows down considerably for most of Canada between Nov and April (not just due to the cold; many days are overcast with IFR weather). May through Oct is the best time for flying there. So you may want to consider another school in the southern US. There are a few smaller Part 141 schools too, that can issue an I-20 form for the student visa. Since your daughter is already cleared on SEVIS and by the TSA, I personally think this will be her best option. You will need to look into USCIS options for transfer of school. Also, the Transport Canada flight training syllabus (after PPL) is quite different from the FAA syllabus, so your daughter may have to adjust somewhat if she switches to Canada. Most Canadians, for example, get their Instrument Rating after their Commercial licence (it is often combined with the multi-engine rating, a.k.a. Group I instrument Rating).

If you need any further advice, just PM me. I am sorry that you are in this situation, but make a few calls and you will solve the problem. I agree with Squawk7777 that female students often need a slightly different approach, and that does not necessarily mean that they are bad pilots. Very likely, the problem is her instructor's approach and teaching method. If he is not being paid by the school (if he's a foreign-student-turned-instructor without OPT authorized), demand that she be switched to an instructor who is being paid by the school.

Schools like this give the flight training community a bad name. If they don't think they can successfully train her, they should return the unused money in her account and process her school transfer without prejudice.

Good luck.

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av8beyond is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:52
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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@ saby8: Sorry to hear that your daughter's training isn't progressing as expected! You already received a lot of really good advise here! I'd also suggest to talk to the chief flight instructor and your daughters instructor first, before talking to the FAA or FSDO. I have been an instructor myself and I know that some students learn fast and others just need more time to get things accomplished. And I agree on what has been said by Squawk777 that women have a different approach to learning as men do. Perhaps your daughter would be better off with a female instructor.

But one thing I'd like to mention as well since I believe it should/must be also considered (it is a quite important question before you continue to spend more money) does your daughter really want to become a professional pilot? Maybe flying is not what she expected it to be in the first place and perhaps she is afraid of telling you (because you already spend so much money)? I mean from my own experience as a flight instructor I know that learning to fly is also a process of self-awareness and quite a few people realize during their training that flying might not be for them. This is a tough decision to make, and it's a decision that can be made only by the individual him/herself, but it should/must be accepted by everyone! No matter how disappointing it appears to be in the first place (particularly for the parents) but I believe in the end it's probably the best/right decision.

Best of luck to your daughter!
Transsonic2000 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2018, 13:56
  #11 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by av8beyond View Post
saby8, I am a former Canadian flight instructor (Toronto area), and completed my flight training in the US, Canada and Australia.

You definitely need to make a couple of phone calls ASAP. First, call the Chief Flight Instructor of the school and see if he can give you a reason for what is happening (beyond the usual vague excuses, such as failing her stage checks). You are paying the bill, and you and your daughter need to be respected as customers. If you are not satisfied with the response, I suggest calling the local FAA FSDO - Flight Standards District Office (google: FAA+FSDO for the phone number). Ask to speak to an FAA flight inspector, and give him/her specific details. Ask him/her what your daughter's school-transfer options are. You may even want to suggest that your daughter come to see him/her at the office (along with her log-book and passport).

Since your daughter is on an M-1 visa, she is obviously at a Part 141 school. I was briefly at a Part 141 school in Phoenix many years ago, and spoke to an Egyptian (male) student there who took over 70 hours to get his first solo. According to him, his instructor (also from the Middle East) was not letting him handle the controls and was essentially pumping him for flight-time. The student finally switched to an experienced flight instructor (also a jet charter pilot) and got his solo and private certificate without further ado in a few more hours.

Although the situation mentioned above is not typical, I have found from personal experience that many US Part 141 schools (especially in Florida and Arizona) that cater primarily to foreign students do not have the students' best interests in mind (the Egyptian student's issue should have been flagged by the Chief long before he'd logged 70 hours of dual). The quality of flight training is also typically poor, because they tend to guarantee every graduate an instructor job. Most students on M-1 visas complete their CPL, get an instructor rating and begin working for the school to get to 1,500 hrs. They typically have only 1 or 2 students each, so many unscrupulously do their best to pad the student's dual hours. Many foreign instructors at these Part 141 schools are also completely unpaid - the school does not declare them to be graduates to US immigration, does not do the paperwork to authorize OPT (optional practical training), so they are not legally able to work for money in the US. In other words, a student is paying for an instructor's time, but the school keeps 100% of that money - leaving no incentive for the foreign-student-turned-instructor to put any effort into his or her work.

How many hours has your daughter logged at this school? How much dual, how much solo? Are her other PPL requirements (night training, solo and dual cross-country hours, etc.) completed? Since it is a Part 141 course, I think she really needs to try to complete her PPL at this school (Part 61 would be much more flexible, but she is not eligible for that as a foreign student). So make all the noise you have to, in order to make that happen. Once that is done, you can decide whether you want her to switch to a Canadian flight school. Yes, she can legally be a flight training student in Canada on a Visitor's visa for up to 6 months (the Canadian consulate will issue a Visitor's visa with the added line "Category: SX-1 Student", which means student-exempt). With this, she will not be allowed to work in Canada. Otherwise, she can get a full student visa for Canada, which should allow her limited-time work opportunities, once she completes her "degree" (CPL).

Keep in mind that winter is approaching in Canada, and from personal experience as an instructor there I can confirm that the pace of flight training slows down considerably for most of Canada between Nov and April (not just due to the cold; many days are overcast with IFR weather). May through Oct is the best time for flying there. So you may want to consider another school in the southern US. There are a few smaller Part 141 schools too, that can issue an I-20 form for the student visa. Since your daughter is already cleared on SEVIS and by the TSA, I personally think this will be her best option. You will need to look into USCIS options for transfer of school. Also, the Transport Canada flight training syllabus (after PPL) is quite different from the FAA syllabus, so your daughter may have to adjust somewhat if she switches to Canada. Most Canadians, for example, get their Instrument Rating after their Commercial licence (it is often combined with the multi-engine rating, a.k.a. Group I instrument Rating).

If you need any further advice, just PM me. I am sorry that you are in this situation, but make a few calls and you will solve the problem. I agree with Squawk7777 that female students often need a slightly different approach, and that does not necessarily mean that they are bad pilots. Very likely, the problem is her instructor's approach and teaching method. If he is not being paid by the school (if he's a foreign-student-turned-instructor without OPT authorized), demand that she be switched to an instructor who is being paid by the school.

Schools like this give the flight training community a bad name. If they don't think they can successfully train her, they should return the unused money in her account and process her school transfer without prejudice.

Good luck.

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Hi everyone
I have one question
Please may anybody explain me why foreigners can't use part 61 course????
Please PM me if You want.
Many thanks in advance

----
Safe flights!
avoka is online now  
Old 21st Oct 2018, 15:43
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,813
It depends on the visa. If a foreigner comes here for the purpose of flight training they must go through a part 141 program. If they are here for some other purpose and want to do flight training in addition to their primary reason for being here they can go through a part 61 program.
MarkerInbound is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2018, 16:28
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London (FAA CPL/CFI)
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound View Post
It depends on the visa. If a foreigner comes here for the purpose of flight training they must go through a part 141 program. If they are here for some other purpose and want to do flight training in addition to their primary reason for being here they can go through a part 61 program.
sorry fella, I did all my ratings part 61 (6 m1 visas over 6 years as I remember). Most who go zero to hero go for part 141 but there's nothing to stop you doing part 61 as a foreigner.
ahwalk01 is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2019, 23:51
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Las Vegas
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Foreigners using Part 61

Originally Posted by avoka View Post

Hi everyone
I have one question
Please may anybody explain me why foreigners can't use part 61 course????
Please PM me if You want.
Many thanks in advance

----
Safe flights!
Hi Avoka,
Sorry for the late response; I haven't been here for quite a while.
Prior to 9-11, Part 61 pilot training was open to non-US citizens, even tourists on a B-1/B-2 visitor's visa. No further clearances were required, as long as one did not overstay the visa.

1) Sometime after 9-11, around 2004, the regulations changed so that all non-US citizens (including people with "green cards") wanting to begin ab initio flight training in the US now need to get a TSA clearance called a Category 3 approval first. In order to apply for this, one needs to provide a Course ID number and a Student ID number to the TSA, after which one has to give them one's fingerprints and pay a fee of around $150. Usually, only Part 141 flight schools are able to give students an ID number for the TSA application. There may be a few exceptions that I am not aware of.

2) Another issue is the visa. In general, people on a visitor's visa are not allowed to begin flight training in the US. I am not sure about people who have entered through the OECD Visa Waiver program, such as EU citizens. If the primary purpose of being in the US is flight training, the foreign student will have to enter the country with either an M-1 visa (most common) or in some cases an F-1 visa (if a degree is to be attained). In order to get either of these visas, one needs to submit something called a Form I-20 to the US embassy/consulate during the visa application. In general, Part 141 flight schools have the authorization to issue a Form I-20 for a student visa. I don't know of any Part 61 flight schools that are so authorized.

3) Moreover, all foreign students entering the US also need to get a SEVIS clearance (Student and Exchange Visitor Information System). The SEVIS fee is about $350. I don't know if any Part 61 flight schools are in the SEVIS system (unlikely).
.
In conclusion, I will note that foreign nationals can learn to fly in neighboring Canada without any of the above complications. The weather is of course much better in California and Arizona.

Hope this answers your question. Cheers and good luck with your flight training.
av8beyond is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 07:54
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: singapore
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Originally Posted by Squawk7777 View Post
The FAA has a responsibility to the public. Whenever an accident occurs with a student or fairly new certified pilot, the Feds will talk to the instructor. They should display the same responsibility whenever there is slow learning progress from a CFI. A CFI has to demonstrate sufficient and adequate skills as an instructor.

Worst case scenario, you could file a complaint with the FAA that the instructor doesn't demonstrate those skills. Getting on the FAA's radar is something no CFI would like to experience.


i am a Singaporean who wish to take up flying training, I would greatly appreciate any pilot best opinion on my current situation... As my work does not allow me to take long leaves of absence, and i hope to have accelerated training kind or expected that my training would entails several trips.. I rejected flight training in US because of the hassle of M1 visa and as a foreigner i can only train in Part 141 school which in my opinion cost much more and I do want to be bind by them in case I switch school.... and Part 61 accelerated school can't issue i-20, that limits my option.

a) Is flight training in Canada can be done on a tourist visa? ; and i can go in for short duration and out as often as i like...

b) Later on i hope to convert canada license to FAA (the best of both world), is quite straight forward process right?

c) Canada weather is better than the US Florida weather?

d) Does canada flight program also structure the same thing as Part 141 and Part 61?

Regards,
ppl5505 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 14:14
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,151
C) - Florida weather is MUCH better from probably October-April. Canada's weather is better May(or at least June) until September.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 14:47
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by ppl5505 View Post
i am a Singaporean who wish to take up flying training, I would greatly appreciate any pilot best opinion on my current situation... As my work does not allow me to take long leaves of absence, and i hope to have accelerated training kind or expected that my training would entails several trips.. I rejected flight training in US because of the hassle of M1 visa and as a foreigner i can only train in Part 141 school which in my opinion cost much more and I do want to be bind by them in case I switch school.... and Part 61 accelerated school can't issue i-20, that limits my option.

a) Is flight training in Canada can be done on a tourist visa? ; and i can go in for short duration and out as often as i like...

b) Later on i hope to convert canada license to FAA (the best of both world), is quite straight forward process right?

c) Canada weather is better than the US Florida weather?

d) Does canada flight program also structure the same thing as Part 141 and Part 61?

Regards,
Which country are you from? Is it a VWP country?


havick is online now  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 15:43
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: singapore
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by havick View Post
Which country are you from? Is it a VWP country?
Yes, Singapore (VWP qualify)....
ppl5505 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 15:45
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: singapore
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by misd-agin View Post
C) - Florida weather is MUCH better from probably October-April. Canada's weather is better May(or at least June) until September.
Thank you for advise...
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