Gaining American citizenship
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Here and There
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont want to seem overly negative, but my experience is as follows:
First the facts:
-married for over 10 years to my wife who is US Citizen born and raised in the US (as American as Apple pie)
-have 2 children who are also US citizens.
-lived in the USA for the last 10 years.
-over 3500+ hours on B747-400, over 6000TT jet
-commuted to/from Europe for the last 10 years
-worked for major European & Asian Airlines, excellent trackable record
Immigration Process:
-received "greencard" 10 years ago
-applied for US Citizenship 5 years ago
-after dragging for almost 4 years, my US citizenship has been denied, due to "lack of physical presence".
-after providing all necessary documentation, to prove that they are wrong and paying the processing fee of some $350 on top of my original application - I have not heard a word since.
-the fact that my profession as Long Haul Pilot requires me to leave the country on a regular basis (US is big but not that big), did not matter to the Mexican born immigration officer, who spoke really broken english, nevermind her english spelling.
No reply from most of the Airlines here. UPS even mentioned on the website that you have to be a US citizen as a requirement, due to "sensitive military freight" requiring security clearance.
Oh yes, and did I mention, that for the past 3 years I have flown all sorts of US military equipment from the USA to the Middle East, while working for a non US Airline.
I'm sorry to say, but as much as I love this country - not least because all those who matter to me most are born Americans (wife and kids) - the US government sucks and the protectionism going on in the US Airline industry is a disgrace.
The discussions of equal opportunity and non discrimination is hot air at best and hypocracy at worst.
I know a lot of US pilots flying for Cathay, Cargolux, British Airways and even Lufthansa (provided they can speak German). The reciprocity however works only one way and that is not right.
Luckily, more and more of the world's airlines are returning the same "courtesy" by not hiring US pilots. This kind of development is unfortunate, as it would have been far better for the US Airline industry being less protective.
Sorry - I'm letting some steam out here, but it can be quite frustrating to deal with this kind of c&*p.
As things stand, I found professional happiness elsewhere and am no longer trying to get into the US Airlines. Good luck to those who try.
First the facts:
-married for over 10 years to my wife who is US Citizen born and raised in the US (as American as Apple pie)
-have 2 children who are also US citizens.
-lived in the USA for the last 10 years.
-over 3500+ hours on B747-400, over 6000TT jet
-commuted to/from Europe for the last 10 years
-worked for major European & Asian Airlines, excellent trackable record
Immigration Process:
-received "greencard" 10 years ago
-applied for US Citizenship 5 years ago
-after dragging for almost 4 years, my US citizenship has been denied, due to "lack of physical presence".
-after providing all necessary documentation, to prove that they are wrong and paying the processing fee of some $350 on top of my original application - I have not heard a word since.
-the fact that my profession as Long Haul Pilot requires me to leave the country on a regular basis (US is big but not that big), did not matter to the Mexican born immigration officer, who spoke really broken english, nevermind her english spelling.
No reply from most of the Airlines here. UPS even mentioned on the website that you have to be a US citizen as a requirement, due to "sensitive military freight" requiring security clearance.
Oh yes, and did I mention, that for the past 3 years I have flown all sorts of US military equipment from the USA to the Middle East, while working for a non US Airline.
I'm sorry to say, but as much as I love this country - not least because all those who matter to me most are born Americans (wife and kids) - the US government sucks and the protectionism going on in the US Airline industry is a disgrace.
The discussions of equal opportunity and non discrimination is hot air at best and hypocracy at worst.
I know a lot of US pilots flying for Cathay, Cargolux, British Airways and even Lufthansa (provided they can speak German). The reciprocity however works only one way and that is not right.
Luckily, more and more of the world's airlines are returning the same "courtesy" by not hiring US pilots. This kind of development is unfortunate, as it would have been far better for the US Airline industry being less protective.
Sorry - I'm letting some steam out here, but it can be quite frustrating to deal with this kind of c&*p.
As things stand, I found professional happiness elsewhere and am no longer trying to get into the US Airlines. Good luck to those who try.
Last edited by Avius; 23rd Mar 2007 at 06:36.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avius sorry to hear that,
But it is US, I have been in this country for almost 5 years, and I have noticed that money talks in this country. Why not try to talk to an Immigration lawyer. Yes, just to talk with one of those guys cost money. There has been rumors in US that most major airlines in US hire only guys with blue passport (US passport). I read this in a different forum. Don't know if it is true or not. Altough on their website they say the right to work in US (greencard) as one of the requirments.
Good luck
But it is US, I have been in this country for almost 5 years, and I have noticed that money talks in this country. Why not try to talk to an Immigration lawyer. Yes, just to talk with one of those guys cost money. There has been rumors in US that most major airlines in US hire only guys with blue passport (US passport). I read this in a different forum. Don't know if it is true or not. Altough on their website they say the right to work in US (greencard) as one of the requirments.
Good luck
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The United states immigration laws are quite specific with regards to foreign born permanent residents who wish to become US citizens....and, have been for quite a long time.
Simply put...you have to reside continuously in the United States for a specified period, and NOT travel overseas, except very occasionally.
Now, a foreign born permanent resident who also happens to work for a US airline therefore may not qualify, IF that individual flies, on a regular basis, overseas.
Yep, thems the rules, like it or not.
Simply put...you have to reside continuously in the United States for a specified period, and NOT travel overseas, except very occasionally.
Now, a foreign born permanent resident who also happens to work for a US airline therefore may not qualify, IF that individual flies, on a regular basis, overseas.
Yep, thems the rules, like it or not.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I posted earlier in the thread.. I'm about to marry a lady who only recently became a US citizen after 15 yrs as an 'Alien ' [I]I do like that term My Immigration lawyer tells me I can expect a permanent residency permit ( Green card ) in approx 4 months after application... I'll keep you posted on how it goes... all sounds a bit simplistic to me.. There are numerous jobs being posted for experienced crew requiring only the right to work in the US .. not full citizenship... whether I will want to fly for the money paid in the US I've yet to decide... I'm certainly going to miss Europe... hopefully it will only be for a couple of years.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would respectfully suggest, MungoP, that you stay home.
IF you do not like the way the USA operates, than why, I must ask, do you wish to travel/work here?
What's the big deal?
IF you do not like the way the USA operates, than why, I must ask, do you wish to travel/work here?
What's the big deal?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A
Because old chap... that's where my lady is stuck for the next year or two and so Mohammed has to go to the mountain...
I've spent a lot of time in the States... have worked and visited over 30 of them in the last 20 years... like all countries it has its pluses ( many of them that I admire hugely ) and minuses... not much I can do about those... having read a couple of your posts here I suspect you fall comfortably into the latter... fortunately I have very many Amerian friends both in and out of the country so I'm experienced enough to know that you are the exception rather than the rule..
Because old chap... that's where my lady is stuck for the next year or two and so Mohammed has to go to the mountain...
I've spent a lot of time in the States... have worked and visited over 30 of them in the last 20 years... like all countries it has its pluses ( many of them that I admire hugely ) and minuses... not much I can do about those... having read a couple of your posts here I suspect you fall comfortably into the latter... fortunately I have very many Amerian friends both in and out of the country so I'm experienced enough to know that you are the exception rather than the rule..
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avius:
1. As suggested, get a lawyer. A good (meaning connected) one.
2. I suggest that your wife start visiting the office of her Congressman. They have staff to help with this sort of thing, and your case sounds like a good one.
1. As suggested, get a lawyer. A good (meaning connected) one.
2. I suggest that your wife start visiting the office of her Congressman. They have staff to help with this sort of thing, and your case sounds like a good one.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A
I remember when you flew for an European company with bases in Europe.
Dont you think that we have lots of European Pilots looking for jobs and who paid for their own rating as you state the Americans do?
I must have been mistaken when I thought at that time that you need to have a European licence and the right to live and work in Europe.
I wish that everyone was as law abiting as you want everyone else to be.
I know many good american pilots who work in Europe and have lost their jobs and pension in the US and for european carriers in other part of the world.
Now the US carriers are recalling after restructuring after 9/11.
I suspect that there will be lack of pilots in the near future.
However we Europeans welcome our US colleques when they are needed unlike the US, there is no way we can get validations on our european licence nor even if we had a FAA licence there is no way we can work and live in the US unless going through many years of process.
I ask you 411A do you agree with this one way favorism or do you think the US should open the doors for europeans as we do for the US citizens.
Have you forgotten that a European company opened the doors for you when young European pilots who paid for their own rating were looking for jobs?
If you plan to answer this I ask you to keep to the issue and not by the usual sarcasm we see on this website from you.
Dont you think that we have lots of European Pilots looking for jobs and who paid for their own rating as you state the Americans do?
I must have been mistaken when I thought at that time that you need to have a European licence and the right to live and work in Europe.
I wish that everyone was as law abiting as you want everyone else to be.
I know many good american pilots who work in Europe and have lost their jobs and pension in the US and for european carriers in other part of the world.
Now the US carriers are recalling after restructuring after 9/11.
I suspect that there will be lack of pilots in the near future.
However we Europeans welcome our US colleques when they are needed unlike the US, there is no way we can get validations on our european licence nor even if we had a FAA licence there is no way we can work and live in the US unless going through many years of process.
I ask you 411A do you agree with this one way favorism or do you think the US should open the doors for europeans as we do for the US citizens.
Have you forgotten that a European company opened the doors for you when young European pilots who paid for their own rating were looking for jobs?
If you plan to answer this I ask you to keep to the issue and not by the usual sarcasm we see on this website from you.
Last edited by 747flyby; 30th Mar 2007 at 12:49. Reason: Spelling error
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I know a lot of US pilots flying for Cathay, Cargolux, British Airways and even Lufthansa (provided they can speak German). The reciprocity however works only one way and that is not right.
Luckily, more and more of the world's airlines are returning the same "courtesy" by not hiring US pilots. This kind of development is unfortunate, as it would have been far better for the US Airline industry being less protective."
............................................................ ...
You mean it would be a lot better for foreigners. The vast vast majority of US pilots do not want to work for foreign carriers. I know I sure don't want to work in the middle east, nor in Europe. PPRUNE itself is filled with threads on how Europeans can get here to the US to work. Almost zero the other way around.
Not to start a war across the Atlantic, but the foreign companies that are hiring US pilots aren't doing it because they want to be "fair." Foreign companies like Cargolux and Cathay are doing it because they need pilots and can't get them locally. How many pilots a year does Luxembourg produce or separate from it's military?
Does Cathay primarily serve only Hong Kong residents? Or, is it's size completely out of proportion to Hong Kong's population?
Let's see . . . Cargolux. Luxembourg. Now that's a real big country. Most of that cargo originates and ends in LUX? Gee how many US pilots at Lufthansa? Hmmm..... how many GERMAN pilots at my tiny little airline? SEVERAL. Along with Russians, South Americans, Brits, etc.
I'll bet the number of US pilots working in Europe PALES in comparison to the number of European-origin pilots working in the US.
Maybe there's a reason that the Europeans are salivating at entering the US market and carping and the US is justifiably reticent. Like entering the US market will produce a pretty much one-sided windfall for the Europeans. It could easily also turn US aviation into something like seagoing cargo is . . . flags of convenience like parasites on a host. The Europeans have LOTS of protectionist schemes going themselves . . JAA licenses, etc. I like things just the way they are, thank you very much. We don't need give away any more US jobs to foreigners. There's been enough of that already. The Europeans should protect their markets and we should protect ours.
Luckily, more and more of the world's airlines are returning the same "courtesy" by not hiring US pilots. This kind of development is unfortunate, as it would have been far better for the US Airline industry being less protective."
............................................................ ...
You mean it would be a lot better for foreigners. The vast vast majority of US pilots do not want to work for foreign carriers. I know I sure don't want to work in the middle east, nor in Europe. PPRUNE itself is filled with threads on how Europeans can get here to the US to work. Almost zero the other way around.
Not to start a war across the Atlantic, but the foreign companies that are hiring US pilots aren't doing it because they want to be "fair." Foreign companies like Cargolux and Cathay are doing it because they need pilots and can't get them locally. How many pilots a year does Luxembourg produce or separate from it's military?
Does Cathay primarily serve only Hong Kong residents? Or, is it's size completely out of proportion to Hong Kong's population? Let's see . . . Cargolux. Luxembourg. Now that's a real big country. Most of that cargo originates and ends in LUX? Gee how many US pilots at Lufthansa? Hmmm..... how many GERMAN pilots at my tiny little airline? SEVERAL. Along with Russians, South Americans, Brits, etc.
I'll bet the number of US pilots working in Europe PALES in comparison to the number of European-origin pilots working in the US.
Maybe there's a reason that the Europeans are salivating at entering the US market and carping and the US is justifiably reticent. Like entering the US market will produce a pretty much one-sided windfall for the Europeans. It could easily also turn US aviation into something like seagoing cargo is . . . flags of convenience like parasites on a host. The Europeans have LOTS of protectionist schemes going themselves . . JAA licenses, etc. I like things just the way they are, thank you very much. We don't need give away any more US jobs to foreigners. There's been enough of that already. The Europeans should protect their markets and we should protect ours.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Here and There
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roadtrip,
Let me correct you a little. First off, most US pilots "don't want" to work in Europe because they might have to learn another language and to get a JAR licence, which apart from being expensive (some U$ 140.000) also requires significantly more studying and takes a lot longer to obtain.
Can you explain what is so protective about the JAR license ? . All that is required is brainpower and determination. Everyone is treated exactly the same way, whether European citizen or not. Unless of course you feel that you should be given one without any effort. (which would be completely Un-American...)
After all, years ago when I went to the US to get my US ATP, the tests were held in English and not in German, French or even Spanish. However, compared to the tests I had to go through in Europe, the FAA tests were a mere joke. I don't want to downplay the US pilots in any shape of form, but the basic ATP license is extremely eazy to obtain. I do realize, that a lot of the training within the airlines (typeratings, etc.) compensates for some of the deficiencies, but I don't want to open a can of worms here.
The FAA should require IMHO a higher degree of education (bachellors degree, etc.) as a pre-requisite to get an ATP. This would probably help the US aviation over the long term.
I'm impressed with your geographical knowledge about Luxembourg. Congratulations!!! You might want to know, that Luxembourg, like all the other EU countries recognize each other's licenses in form of the JAR license and therefore is not dependent on Luxembourgish born pilots.
As such any pilot from any EU country can work in any other country, at least theoretically. (There is some form of protectionism within say Air France, Iberia, possibly Alitalia, etc. but that has less to do with nationality but more with the educational background, much like FedEx preference of ex-military pilots)
You might also be interested, that Cargolux could probably cover their entire country with the paper that was used to write the applications from European crews. No shortage of crews there.
As far as Cathay goes....I don't think there is a particular preference for US pilots. All of HKG has a large population of Ex-Patriates working there from every place on the planet - provided they can pass the HK CAD exams. The HK-CAD conversion terms for FAA licensed pilots are somewhat more, but fair.
Finally, I can only speculate about the reason why so many Foreign pilots want to work in the US. Mine is simply, because my family are all americans -me excluding- and that's all. (After all, I don't get to chose, where I would like to live as I'm constantly being overruled - being the minority at home - the only "alien")
Anyway, the cost of training is probably the main reason. Flying is much cheaper in the US than elsewhere. Once they obtain their FAA ATP, the options to get a job are quite limited to the US job market. I think you will find very few foreign pilots who have a JAR license working in the US unless it's at the majors. JAR license holders have simply better options in getting a much better paying job OUTSIDE the US, at least for the time being.
Let me correct you a little. First off, most US pilots "don't want" to work in Europe because they might have to learn another language and to get a JAR licence, which apart from being expensive (some U$ 140.000) also requires significantly more studying and takes a lot longer to obtain.
Can you explain what is so protective about the JAR license ?
. All that is required is brainpower and determination. Everyone is treated exactly the same way, whether European citizen or not. Unless of course you feel that you should be given one without any effort. (which would be completely Un-American...) After all, years ago when I went to the US to get my US ATP, the tests were held in English and not in German, French or even Spanish. However, compared to the tests I had to go through in Europe, the FAA tests were a mere joke. I don't want to downplay the US pilots in any shape of form, but the basic ATP license is extremely eazy to obtain. I do realize, that a lot of the training within the airlines (typeratings, etc.) compensates for some of the deficiencies, but I don't want to open a can of worms here.
The FAA should require IMHO a higher degree of education (bachellors degree, etc.) as a pre-requisite to get an ATP. This would probably help the US aviation over the long term.
I'm impressed with your geographical knowledge about Luxembourg. Congratulations!!! You might want to know, that Luxembourg, like all the other EU countries recognize each other's licenses in form of the JAR license and therefore is not dependent on Luxembourgish born pilots.
As such any pilot from any EU country can work in any other country, at least theoretically. (There is some form of protectionism within say Air France, Iberia, possibly Alitalia, etc. but that has less to do with nationality but more with the educational background, much like FedEx preference of ex-military pilots)
You might also be interested, that Cargolux could probably cover their entire country with the paper that was used to write the applications from European crews. No shortage of crews there.
As far as Cathay goes....I don't think there is a particular preference for US pilots. All of HKG has a large population of Ex-Patriates working there from every place on the planet - provided they can pass the HK CAD exams. The HK-CAD conversion terms for FAA licensed pilots are somewhat more, but fair.
Finally, I can only speculate about the reason why so many Foreign pilots want to work in the US. Mine is simply, because my family are all americans -me excluding- and that's all. (After all, I don't get to chose, where I would like to live as I'm constantly being overruled - being the minority at home - the only "alien")
Anyway, the cost of training is probably the main reason. Flying is much cheaper in the US than elsewhere. Once they obtain their FAA ATP, the options to get a job are quite limited to the US job market. I think you will find very few foreign pilots who have a JAR license working in the US unless it's at the majors. JAR license holders have simply better options in getting a much better paying job OUTSIDE the US, at least for the time being.
