Idiotisk JAA
 

La meg sporre dere alle...hva er vitsen med dettee tullete JAA systemet som bare straffer lufttrafikk I Europa. 14 tullete prover, et system som bare setter opp barikader og gjor det problematisk for Europeiske on Norske selkaper og ansette de flygere som er mest kvalifisert. Det er pilot shortage rundt om i mange land i Europa, hvor de maa parkere fly. Mange av de som blir rekrutert har JAA sertfikat men et MINIMUM med kvalifikasjon.....les IKKE sikker i luften.

Jeg bare ikke fatter denne tankegangen annent en ren proteksjonisme fra Europeiske politikere og luftfartsmyndigheter. Jeg mener ikke aa spytte paa kvalifiserte flygere som har sittet og studert for alle disse unodvendige provene.

Desverre annent og gjore det vanskelig og aa haane FAA utdannede piloter saa gjore dette JAA systemet ingen favor. Det oker IKKE flysikkerheten paa noen maate, det gjor det problematisk og desverre umulig for flyselskaper i Europa og ansette de mest kvalifiserte pilotene de kan finne i verden.

Dette er utrolig trist....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

For det amerikanske immigrasjonsvesenet gjør det jo så mye enklere å gå den andre veien...

Hmmm
 

Vel vi diskuterer ikke immigrasjons systemet.....Jeg er enig i det plus det vil vare det samme for en amerikaner og komme til Norge for og faa en jobb. Mitt poeng er JAA systemet som er paa trynet idiotisk....og ser ut til bare og bli vaerre....:{:{

Protektionism är det garanterat. Och det är likadant överallt. Försök få ett jobb i Australien eller USA med JAA cert... Varför man inte kan införa ett globalt ICAO cert med standardiserad utbildning och certifiering för alla är ett mysterium och kan bara förklaras med protektionism. Tyvärr resulterar det också i ett mindre säkert system med löjliga åtgärder som språktest och konverteringar som kräver att man skriver om samma prov och flyger upp igen och igen. Inte konstigt att det blir pilot shortage.

Kanskje det er ladg på den måten nettopp for å prøve å forhindre at flyelever tar sertifikatene sine utenfor Europa? Ord som kvalitet brukes ofte, i tillegg til at man ser litt ned på f.eks. FAA. At de som har masse erfaring fra operativ luftfart, gjerne internasjonalt, må gjøre de fleste av testene osv kan man våge å påstå er et forsøk på ekskludering fra JAA sin side....:= Ska`kke komme her og komme her:ugh:

-->"Varför man inte kan införa ett globalt ICAO cert med standardiserad utbildning och certifiering för alla är ett mysterium och kan bara förklaras med protektionism."

Et globalt ICAO sert hadde jo vært tingen. Men det forutsetter jo at alle CAA's er enige. JAA består jo av en gruppe CAA's som samarbeider om et felles regulativ. FAA følger langt ifra alle ICAO dokumenter, og ville fått en stor jobb dersom det skulle sammarbeides om et felles sertifikat.

JAA vs FAA
 

JAA er som FAA på 70 tallet.

Hvis noen er i tvil, prøv og sjekk brukervennligheten til nett sidene deres!

www.faa.gov :D

www.jaa.nl :yuk:

www.luftfartstilsynet.no :yuk:

Jeg vil påstå at amerikanske piloter er bedre på airlaw, enn deres europeiske kolleger. Årsaken er at deres FAR's er mer oversiktlig. Ikke uvanlig at amerikanske piloter kan paragrafer utenat.

Empati

Visst måste alla CAA vara eniga för att ett ICAO cert ska fungera, men faktum är ju att vi alla flyger i samma luftrum. Ibland undrar jag om de olika "CAA/FAA" kontoren begriper detta. Hur mycket de än väljer att begränsa och hindra oss från att flyga på andra cert så kommer vi ju att flyga i annat luftrum med andra regler, och träffa kollegor som flyger efter andra regler och med en annan utbildning. Det borde ju vara enkelt att bara acceptera ICAO rakt av istället så att man har en gemensam grund.

Det är egentligen fullständigt obegripligt och oförsvarbart att det är som det är.

Takk
 

Vel det er hyggelig og hore at jeg ikke er alene om min frustrasjon.

At systemet kommer til og forandre seg tror jeg ikke, hvis det blir forandringer saa blir det til det vaerre.

Det burde vaere et globalt serfikat....

Jeg er skuffet over at man med flere tusen timer i loggboken skal maatte sette seg ned i 7-8 maander og studere for 14 skriftlige prover plus oppflyvning.

:ugh::ugh:

De prøvene er ikke morsomme... Du har min fulle sympati!

Men JAA er stadig under utvikling, og navne-endring:D JAR-OPS heter snart EU-OPS og JAA går over til ESA/EASA. Hele tiden med justeringer og regelendringer slik at man virkelig må henge med i svingene:ugh:. Se bare på de nye tjenestetidsbestemmelsene:zzz::{

Gutten
 

Det er utrolig synd naar man overlater luftfarts lovgiving til en hel haug byraakrater fra mange forskjellige land i Europe. Der de kommer med bakvendt lovgiving som bare skyter en i foten......some jeg har sagt et par ganger allerede. Denne type lovgivning har IKKE noe med og gjore luftfart noe mer sikker annet enn aa stikke kjepper i hjulene:ugh::ugh:.

Personlig saa bor jeg ikke i europe, men synes det er synd at jeg ikke kan dra tilbake til Norge om jeg onsker uten at jeg maa ta en hel haug latterlige prover.

Vel vel......:=

Du er i Japan Mr. 747 jetdriver..?

JCAB var jo kjent for å ha latterlige prøver før i tiden og jeg fikk smake de på kroppen da jeg gakk gjennom programmet i 1992.
Har det bedret seg eller må man enda pugge definisjoner på VOR og NDB og slikt, deretter skrive ut definisjonen på dårlig oversatt engelsk. (Fra japansk)?

Tar man enda simulatorprøve uten å kunne bruke sjekklistene for man skulle pugge alt utenatt? :=

Kanskje blir det bare barnemat å flytte til Norge og pugge JAR eller hva det heter for tiden?

747jetdriver: Dersom du allerede har flere tusen timer og noen år på baken som profesjonell pilot, så ligger vel all teori også i ryggmargen slik at du slipper å lese noe særlig til de 14 herlige eksamene? :E

Dumt å ta US eller Japansk sert dersom du vil fly i Norge da :ugh:.. disse reglene har vært en stund, ser ikke helt poenget med å grine over det. :=

Og som siste skribent skriver, dersom du er så kjempeflink og har så masse erfaring er vel det meste av teorien barnemat ;)

Poenget hans er ikke hvor "flink" han er. Han som mange andre her, har tusenvis av timer paa tunge fly. Trening til ulike selskaper og sertifikater har mange ting som stort sett gaar i glemmeboka saa snart man er i flyet. SOP er det eneste man ikke glemmer. For dere som bare droemmer om en jobb i et flyselskap og tror at alt som du skal gjennom sitter, tro igjen. Det er som en trakt i flabben i noen uker, deretter tester som skal overleves.
Konvertering er helt sikkert knallhardt men det er ikke tidspress for de fleste.

Om globalt sertifikat, noen sa at du ikke kommer til USA med JAA sertifikater og flyr. Tror fortsatt at du faar godskrevet JAA sert til FAA uten problem....

Kattfaen
 

Meget bra skrevet Kattfaen....meget bra...........

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...standards.html

If you read the article in the hard copy magazine it also mentions cert harmonisation between JAA-FAA

I have them both, and a third one too. There are no difference. If you have adequate experience, it makes no difference what logo your ticket has on it.

The weak points with the FAA system is the published test answers, and that you can be completely lost in a subject, since you only need 80% pass in all the subjects combined.

In the JAA system you need a minimum passing score in each subject, to ensure a basic knowledge in every subject. The weak point in Scandinavia is the lack of competent personnel at the license offices - most have no clue (and no operational experience, apart from recreational Cessna flying at best) and are therefore reluctant to apply common sense, thus they stick to the books - the books they don´t understand.

E.g. I asked why my test included questions about Omega.....history at the time. I could actually fail in navigation if I answered wrong about Omega, despite Omega being long gone. When I tried to ask about this, they had no clue and only pointed to the books. However, I think the curriculum has been updated since.

In any case, there should be an easier way to convert for those with adequate experience, say 3-4000 hours multi crew experience from larger jets.

Remember, the first in space was a dog - its not that hard! Lets keep it simple!

One more thing 747jetdriver. I see from your posts elsewhere on Pprune that you have been bitching about this for the better part of spring. Would it not be better spent time to use your energy to get the JAA, rather than threading in water hoping to change the system. You could do this pretty fast, I know several people in your situation who directed their energy into getting the JAA ticket and ultimately a job in Europe, instead of being upset about the system.

I truly do understand your frustration, but lets face it, you are better off taking a few months to study and sit these exams. They are realy not that much different from the FAA ones.

Good luck

Kattfan, well written, and a nice first post:ok: Welcome aboard! And don`t be shy in the Viking Bar:}

Freightdog, I think the Qs are modified now that Norway in is compliance with the JAA. I did my nav tests in 2001, under the former system, and the only Omeg Q I got was "how many stations are there" Funny thing, there was no "0" as an option:} Someone was having a laugh:D!

But I`ll differ with you when you say that the FAA ATP tests are nt that diferent from the JAA ATPL tests. The theory is, of course, the same, but the way the JAA approaches the theory is worlds apart from the FAA way. And, yes, they`ve been talking about a harmonization for years and years, but it ain`t gettin`too much closer unfortunately:sad:

I'm also going to have to disagree with you on this one. If you are going to take the FAA ATP written exam all you need is $70 for a CD that gives you all the questions and all the answers. You study hard over a weekend and take the exam on Monday.
I'm not sure what the going rate is for taking the FAA exam is ($90 would be my guess), but I'm pretty sure it's a less than the JAA exam. I was quoted NOK7000 last summer for the JAA. Not to mention the 14 books and the fact that self study is not recommended. If you do a study course through a school the total price in NOK will probably be around 40000.

Not only is it frustrating, but I feel I've paid enough to get were I am at the moment and now all that knowledge and experience I have accumulated is next to worthless.

You are right in one thing though: Put up or shut up! It is what it is and if you are planning to get a JAA certificate this is what it takes. I am glad to see that at least the two agencies are at least talking about changing the current system.

Freightdog: I agree to most of your frustration about JAR licencing, and lack of coordination between JAR and FAR, but most of the flight related personnell I have talked to in "Tilsynet" are former colleagues from WF, BU and SAS, with pre-retirement, and not leisure Cessna pilots..!

But most important: Why should "...say 3-4000 hours multi crew experience from larger jets..." give you any advantage over a pilot with the same amount of flying time on a heavy turboprop...? :confused: "Say 3-4000 hours multi crew experience from DHC8-Q400"...............? Because ANY backyard freight company give much better training than major regional companies, og because YOU are flying a "larger jet"....? :confused: :confused: :confused:

...now that sounds like quality education? :}

We're talking about a profession here guys. For professionals. The ATPL is the highest education one can get as a pilot, and should not be a weekend course at the equivalent cost of a bag of doughnuts. It should not be a human right to get a professional license, even though a lot of us seem to think it is ok that the market is flooding over with fresh pilots from the FAA system with 200 hours, willing to pay whatever asked for a typerating, then landing a job you should have gotten as an experienced pilot. As long as there are too many pilots, salaries will not tend to rise either.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. (or the other way around...)

And FAA vs JAA education is like comparing a Lada to a Rolls:E Ha!

I wonder what would happen if there were a common license covering the US and EU? Would the FAA accept the ATPL theory and exams, or would the JAA have to loosen up the noose quite a bit?

FAA training is more pilot friendly, no doubt, but it also depends on whether you`re doing it under Part 61 or Part 141. If you attend groundschools in stead of homeschool:} then the FAA under 141 requires a certain curriculum. But the final exam is the same whichever way you choose to go:ok:. The biggest "prblem" with the FAA way is that you can ufortunately get the Qs and As for around $20:rolleyes:. On the other hand, the oral exam part of the checkride can be a breeze if you`re up on your theory, or it can be hell if you`ve just memorized the answers for the multiple-guess exam. Having both FAA and JAA tickets I`ve found that the JAA oral exam is nothing compared to the FAA one, so that sort of evens things out a bit:D

Hmm, here we go again: Mr. Numbnuts airing his opinion..:uhoh:

First of all there is no education given by the FAA or the JAA, rather some government pencil-pushers setting standards and testing candidates to make sure they meet the standards. (Or lack of)

Having been designated by the FAA to give Line Checks and training for Capt. or F/O positions on the B-747 and a few other airplanes, I have been there and seen it on this side of the world.
Belive me Mr. Amateur, there is no difference in the certification system as far as the talent of the airmen:

You can study JAA books untill the cows come home, but you will not be a better pilot than Mr. Redneck who have never been to your college, but who can stay awake and land a crippled bird in bad weather.
What matters is from the outer-marker inbound, not how clever you are kissing the JAA arses and taking their exams.

Not !!!!ting on the JAA pilots or their "Education", but rather the attitude of some guys who have obviously never gone for an FAA rating or a 121 check-ride.

I think a well-rounded pilot would lay low in the terrain and not crack jokes about Lada's or Rollses unless he knows more about flying than cars.

Hello again mr. Professional. You are right, as always. If you decide I am a numbnut, then so it is. Your nick should be TowerGod, and I'm here to worship you. But I'm probably not worthy, since I have been airing my brain, letting out stupid ideas that are not correct. I never took the FAA-orals, JAA-writtens, never even went to college, and obviously don't know a heck of a lot about cars either, hence I am and will always be an amateur. And I have a bad attitude not knowing the PARTs and the FARts apart. Sorry to irritate you. Cracking jokes about the US and A system is not acceptable, I understand now. Please forgive me for i have sinned. I will always be thankful that you took the time to reply to a lowlifer like me. From this day on my opinion is that everything and everyone from the US and A is superior and uncomparable to anything. Will also forget about the unthinkable dream to sit in a shiny big bird drinking coffee for 18 hours followed by 5 minutes actual flying from the outer marker and in. Got to go; the cows are coming home.

...sneaking out...:oh:

Well then

We have quite a few FAA pilots flying on validation, excluding a some really positive exceptions, most of are unfortunately what Tower Dog so elegantly called "Numb Nuts". Non-standard RT, SOP knowledge is limited, Non standard callouts like instead of "Glideslope Capture" it's Yeah we gliding down the slope or "Gear Down" becomes Dump the gear???? Limited knowledge on meteorology and ICAO procedures and the differences from FAA. I could continue the list on and on, but dont really see the purpose of it. This is not to say that JAA trained pilots do not ever do the same mistakes. Just something I have noted in the past years.

The famed pt121 checkride is no harder nor any easier than an OPC or LPC of a JAROPS1 operator. Standards required by the administrators be it FAA or JAA are about the same. Depending on the airline naturally the standard of training varies. There are some really substandard operators on both sides of the Atlantic and regardless of how good the airline is some goofballs sneak through the system. I recall "Magellan". A Captain that forgot to go to NAV/INS and left it in HDG on 747 while crossing the Atlantic a man that has passed the famed pt121 check with Tower Air! S.hit happens and it could have happened to anyone I guess.

Flyingwise both systems have produced good and bad pilots. But when it comes to the theoretical knowledge of flying and all matters involved, US is far behind the rest of the world and not just JAA. The difference of a Swedish or Nordic or European FO and a US equivalent is marked. There is no doubt that the JAA system as anal as it is, gives a better general knowledge on operating an aircraft than FAA does.

Experience is a totally different matter. You cannot substitue actual experience by reading books. To know something well it must be practiced in real life. However a good general knowledge, thorough theoretical training and eventually experience sounds like a pretty good mix to me.

Careful now, Atlanta-Driver, don't irritate the MasterGod, he might wake up from his Viking Bar hangover and humiliate you in public :uhoh:, with mature and Godly nicknames unheard of by non-rednecks... ssshhhhh

:}:}:} Well put TD!! You made me pee my pants laughing again. :}

Check rides in the us are much tougher!

When it comes to the "written" test in the US, it's supposed to be by memory! :eek:Those of you who took the CFI should know that the first part of the learning prosess is memorization or rote learning. Rote, understanding, application, correlation. In that sequence! It's designed this way! Again, the difference between FAA, JAA and Luftfartstilsynet is clear looking at their web sites!:8

Empati

overboard
 

I do think it is far to say that there are 'bad apples' everywhere and if you search a bit for it you will find plenty of mistakes having been made by pilots all over the world. To think that one licensed group of pilots are superior to the other is crap.

The issue in this thread was why do an experienced pilot need to sit 14 exams if he or she shows up with multiple typeratings and thousands of hours of experience. In my humble opinion there should be on subject test that covers JAR rules and regulations, a system oral on the airplane and a flight check.

To say that there are pilots on validation flying and not making the proper call outs is unacceptable but who is allowing them to continue? Don't your company have a standards or training department that nips that in the butt?

All the best to those that choose the 14 exams convertion route!

Hmm, refresh my memory: I knew some of the Tower Air guys and the problems over there, but the above does not ring a bell.

Your scenario however describes the Korean Air jumbo the Russians shot down in 1983.

Congrats on your discovery and thanks for insight, and I assume you are going to give flying lessons to all FAA certified pilots because you have a better general knowledge?

Very arrogant, but if it feels good, go for it.....:ok:

Aye, no MasterGod, just helping some of you JAA dudes with the heads up your arses see the occasional sunshine..Wasting my time? :p

Hmm, trying very hard to turn this around?

Sorry if I stepped on your toes, nothing personal.

SO Fokkerschnakker,
 

Where and what do you fly?

The biggest idiot I ever had as a student, has been with SAS for years. He was totally incompetent.
My best student was really super.He was everything you wanted in a crew member. He has also been with SAS for years.

I went to flight school almost a generation ago. It was not that tough probably compared to JAA. But you have a curriculum (Pensum) If you know it, you pass. What you are getting is only a piece of paper. With no experience, you have nothing.
Written tests are easy, orals are not. My ATP cost me 30 bucks, for the book. I went to the FAA for the ride. Trust me, they don't give it away. Still just a piece of paper.

Then you go to a 121 carrier.(Much later...) Your piece of paper better come with some stuff. All of us had thousands of hours in all kinds of airplanes. Initial training is tough, all your checkrides are hell. There is no prep for a PC. Cold in, and sweaty and bloody out. The hard part is not what you do every day, it is the things you never do and never get a chance to practise. But you must be proficient to pass the ride.

My point is this, Fokkersnapper. Sure some guys returned from the US with bad habits and bad SOP. That is however not a reflection of most US airlines' training, but more a reflection on themselves. Attitude is everything in this business, and I don't mean what you have.

Have lots of friends flying the fjords, and according to some, everything out of Bardufoss
isn't that great. 6-700 hundred does not buy what it used to.. Maybe a couple hundred more for the type to go with your 12 page logbook will do........

This has really just turned into another JAA vs FAA flightschool argument, whereas the threadstarter wanted to know why he has to sit some tough exams regarding his level of experience - most likeliy some of which is in JAA/EU airspace. :ugh: And validation is a 1 year affair:{.

Just a quickie on RT.... Having lived in the States for many years, previously, I understand and can differntiate a lot of the dialects. Combine that with where you grew up, and what kind of people were around you (talking about class here), then one should easily be able to imagine why some people call insects critters and girls something else:ouch:. BUT, the common denominator is that they all have English as their mother tongue, and it is not required, at least until ATP or international ops, that they hold a RT license. Try learning RT staccatto English to someone who already masters the language. Here in JAA`s backyard we are now graded in how well, or poorly, we speak English. :ugh:. That too says a bit...