Regarding taxes, Rishworth says that you are in charge of all taxes that must be paid.

You are employed in Singapore, but don't live there, so according to Rishworth Singapore doesn't want your taxes. You're based in BKK, but doesn't work for a Thai airline, so according to Rishworth Thailand doesn't want your taxes.

The result is that you pay taxes where you live. If you for example live in any western European country you will first have to pay the social taxes (as a company or as an individual), and after that income taxes.

If you get €6000 (first officer), you first pay social taxes of about €1500, and income tax of €1300. You will get net €3200. That's including per diem, so spending about 15 days away per month, spending an average of €30 per day, is another €500 off. Perhaps you take home €2700 net spending 15 days home per month (if you're lucky).

In addition, you're based in BKK and NLH doesn't pay for accomodation there, so everytime you sleep in BKK you end up paying for hotel (or share a flat).

Just an example. The figures are from Sweden, but the other Nordic countries, Holland or UK is not much different.

I believe a few (and it was a "few" ) contract FO's made the jump across, the post above probably clarifies why it was not a headlong rush :hmm:

I haven't heard of any core FO's taking a leave of absence to hawk their wedding tackle around the world, although rumour suggests quite a few have now accepted 737 Command with the caveat that they take LOA as Contract Capt in Spain (resulting in some of us in Spain being dumped for Winter in the Canaries if I am not mistaken :oh: )

Have spoken to UK National Insurance department and the view is that NI contributions ( social tax ) will not need to be paid in UK. Being resident for tax is completely different to being resident for NI. Therefore would appear that not everywhere in western Europe is the same in this regard.

@Oceansailer

Interesting. But under those circumstances, you wouldn't be covered by the social system in UK (or elsewhere within EU), but perhaps in Singapore (if you pay social taxes in Singapore.

Rishworth contract says - for example - maternity leave is according to Singapore regulations, implying that social taxes are paid in Singapore?

The contract also states that NLH once per year can ask the pilot to provide papers that all relevant taxes have been paid by the pilot, in all relevant states.

When will they offer direct employment in NLH? :ugh:

Hmmmm. This gets more interesting by the minute. I had no idea that NI payment and income tax were subject to different rules.

OK, so taxes are paid in the UK...... But...........
If I am self employed, then it is up to me to submit accounts and pay income tax on the profit. Accomodation in Bangkok (or anywhere else), plus travelling costs, plus food costs at outstations, etc, would all be deductible from the Euro 6000 each month. income tax would only be payable on the profit left in the company after all these bits have been deducted surely?
That is exactly how it worked the last time I did this (in the UK)

As a self employed person you are entitled to claim for all this stuff. If you pay yourself the UK minimum wage (No personal income tax due), then only Corporation Tax at 20% is due on your company profit at the Tax year end.

So..... if your company has earned Euro 72,000 in a year and has outgoings of Euro 60,000 (wages, travel and accommodation cost, food, etc), Then your company pays 20% Corporation tax on Euro 12,000. That is a final tax bill of Euro 2400.

Am I missing something?

Thanks. :)

A scam for scabs.

With regards to UK tax, in a very basic nutshell, yes you are missing something. Tax is due on wages, so if you take it as a salary that it taxable at the normal rate, if you take it as dividends under a certain threshold (currently around 30k/year), no tax is due. Corporation tax is due on whatever profit is made, it depends how your accountant does it, but I would suggest you would be paying tax on about 20-30k not 12k. I do agree with other posters, the lack of clarity on where one is expected to pay tax makes this contract slightly challenging. High taxation in Thailand, and I would not want to play with Thai or Norwegian tax man! Good luck!

Cucuotto.

Very helpful indeed. Your post makes no sense whatsoever. Are you attacking me or Norwegian?

A few facts for you. Large companies are entitled to do whatever they like re company setup, etc, etc, etc, as long as it is legal. If you have any doubts look at the likes of Starbucks and Amazon. Despite making Millions in the UK, they pay little tax in the UK by routing business through Ireland etc. It hacks off the Taxman, it hacks off the general public, but they can do nothing because it is legal.
I have yet to see the great UK public shying away from Starbucks or Amazon in large numbers or for any length of time. :=

The bottom line is that these companies will continue to do more and more of this sort of thing as the years go on. Yes, the working conditions usually suffer, But the profits for the shareholders increase as a result. Oh, look at that, many of the shareholders are members of the general public, what a surprise. So some benefit from this activity, and some lose out!

At the end of the day you will never stop this activity, it is here to stay, like it or not! The only decision to be made at this point, is whether to go with it or not. Your decision appears to be not, mine is to make the most of it if the contract is acceptable. I have read the contract, and it is acceptable to me. :) Yes, this is possibly because I am at that time of life where all my bills are paid, and I have money in the bank, but frankly that is irrelevant. Some people will find the Contract acceptable if it suits their needs and they will apply.

You can whinge all day and throw insults but it will make not a jot of difference. NLH will get their pilots. I already know a couple and they are very experienced guys, and the contract suits their needs! And if you think that I will abstain from applying on principle, while somebody else slides into my seat instead, forget it. I want the job, not the feel good factor of being out of the job but a conscientious objector.
This in no way makes me a scab, it makes me a realist, best of luck with remaining bitter and twisted.

Hi Nomad_07

Thanks for that. A few points though. Any wages paid to me by my Company, who are paid by Rishworth who are paid by NLH :ugh: are only subject to Tax in the UK if they are paid to me above my personal tax threshold/code.
If my company pays me less or equal to then no personal Tax is due. The remainder stays in the Company and profit left after all expenses, pension payments, and Dividends are taken has 20% corporation tax levied on it. As for the dividends themselves, I was under the impression that they were taxed at 20% also, but that no NI (Social Tax) is due on them.

This was how I and several others ran their affairs when on Contract several years ago, and the UK Tax man was happy with that. :confused:

Just my tuppence worth. Anybody that thinks my accountant dropped a clanger please speak up. I am always happy to be corrected and get the latest info.

I agree that there is a lack of clarity re all this, and yes, I am assuming that because I will be paying tax in the UK, and because a reciprocal agreement exists, then I could not be taxed again in Norway or Thailand.
I am prepared to be enlightened here if I am assuming too much. :uhoh:

Regards. :)

Hi,

Im not sure where the 20% on dividends comes from. No tax is due if you take dividends under the tax free threshold, this year it's about 30k. So if you take 30k in dividends and personal allowance as salary then no personal tax is due. Corporation tax is due at 20% on all profits. If you take dividends above the threshold, combined with personal allowances, you are almost straight into higher rate income tax.

As for mutual agreement for social security, I think that's just in the EU. And have a look at the FR forums to see how clear that is for people mixed up in it as contractors!

So what's the best way to arrange this?

Blimey, beginning to sound like a nightmare. Obviously I am going to have to look into this further.

Could you clarify re the "FR" forums.

Many thanks. :)

P.S. A light is beginning to glimmer somewhere in the back of my head re the Dividends not being taxable. I'm off to phone the accountant.

jetjockey
 

Jetjockey.. with that nick name well I sure believe this contract suits you.
You must have a chip on your shoulder as my post was not at all hitting at you.
It is just a fact. This is a scam and whoever accept it is a scab...period. And I agree...seen the level this profession has sunk .. they will find people all right. You mention Starbucks, Amazon...Well my friend I don't know if you read the news paper. A major investigation is ongoing on their tax practices in EU countries. And what about Ryanair pilots? They have been chased by tax man all over Europe. You cannot work as a self employed pilot... period. You are not a self employed worker, you have to follow rules and timetable imposed by your employer. You are an employee. Therefore you are entitled to social security pensions and all other benefit. Mr Norwegian ( an ex military pilot and lawyer with a face that doesn't really inspire..) is betting that the system will not change and this globalized **** up will carry on forever. Well sorry to say it will not because the people who are paying the price with unemployment in EU are getting to their limit and serious unrest will start soon if things don't change. He wants to compete with EK and Qatar and the like. as they don't bear social cost. Well they are negating human and worker rights as well and instead of fighting them on this " image" weakness he goes and follow their lead. You must be an idiot to set up such a complicated gig ( contract in Singapore, based in Thailand , Norwegian registered aircraft, Thai cabin crew, EASA licensed pilots ) to avoid paying taxes. The result is that they will get the "discards" and few cheap retired mercenaries with no loyalty if not may be the bond that anyway any court in Europe will tell you is an illegal practice. It could have been a nice opportunity and they just spoiled it.

cucuotto said

Norwegian registered aircraft


Er. . . . No, last time I checked it said EI-LNA on the side, not LN-*** .

I am sure there is a very good reason for this, although I believe "at the moment" AOC is still Norwegian, hence the argy- bargy about Thai CC still awaiting resolution.

Hi Cucuotto.

That wasn't nice.:( There was no need to have a go at me. :eek:

I understand your frustration re all of this. All I was saying is that these things go on. I know about the investigation with Amazon et all, but they are insisting they are following the rules (we shall see).

I also take your point re the self employment. I have seen these rules and guidelines on the HMRC website. I am sure you could be right re "Not really being self employed"

I honestly feel that it is unfair to call those interested scabs though.
Yes, it is not ideal, but it will suit some for a multitude of reasons.
Whatever the reasons that NLH are doing what they are doing, there are those of us that can find this deal dooable. The reality is that if I turned my nose up and abstained, there will be another 100 behind me waiting for a chance. In fact they would be trampling me to death within seconds.
I have had to go with it. I am not a "discard or Mercenary".
I already have a nice steady 737 job in the UK, but have always wanted to fly Long Haul. For various reasons (for me) people like EK and Qatari and the Japanese and Chinese setups just don't suit.

I just want to do the Long Haul thing before I am thrown on the great scrapheap of life.

Hope this helps explain.

P.S. How do I change my handle ;)

Frustrations??? Well may be you are getting the wrong impression as I'm one of the many that turned down their offer. I 'd rather be a really self employed shoe cleaner than being abused by Mr. Norwegian. Still a shame as it could have been a nice opportunity to go back to Europe.Sure not to Thailand ( which I enjoy as I layover for two nights.... sometimes and that is it.).
This contracts suits those who are in worst condition flying multiple sector with similarly illegal contracts for other low costs companies ,the unemployed and a few retiree unable to stop flying. You are probably one of them and you are not really helping yourself or future pilots generations. Unless we want to accept that flying airplane will be like driving bus in the future .Someone is trying to pass this idea already. I hope you will get lucky with the lady boys on board and their unspeakably ugly and cheap uniform. Cause that is what you mean with "changing handle" ..right ?

Hi Cucuotto

Urmm.

No, not at retirement age. Plenty of years left in me yet to build my retirement fund. No, not unable to stop flying. No, not on an illegal contract or even flying multi sector days. I have a nice job at the moment based in the UK, employed by the company, and I'm not worked very hard.

Re the lady boys :eek: I'd rather not thanks. I'm standard NATO in that area.
Re their Uniform, sorry, I'm no fashion guru.

I have to ask a question though (if I may).

I believe you when you say that you and others have turned this down. My question is why go to the trouble of sitting the online tests, attend an interview, do a sim check, and then say no when they offer you the job?
The contract is readily available before any of this. Did nobody read it first?

Just asking. :) i'm curious.

Jetjockey than I must doubt your mental sanity. Why leaving a stable job to join an outfit that might or might not work out. Long haul low cost..Scoot is doing far from well...and SIA has a bit more experience in the business than Norwegian. Competing with EK, Etihad, Qatar, Turkish...mhhh. Is there such a market for cheap flights to far and costly destinations. One count is the Brit back packer that never flew taking Ryanair to Ibiza and sleeping on the beach with is ID card... Another going to JFK.. if you can afford the trip 100 dollars in price ticket difference in the overall package will not make the difference.. but the free and quality catering probably does.
Any screening is a a good way to keep up to date an test your self provided you don't have to pay for anything and this was the case. The T&C proposed were rigid and not acceptable to any qualified 777 "jockey".. plenty of better offer out there...sorry.

good luck with this greedy bastards
 

Norwegian apologizes for long-haul flight service
Published: 18 Jun 2013 10:23 GMT+02:00 | Print version
Updated: 18 Jun 2013 10:23 GMT+02:00

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Norwegian Air Shuttle, Europe's third-largest budget airline, apologized on Monday for refusing passengers food, water and even blankets on its recently launched long-haul flights to New York and Bangkok.

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A 16-year-old spent his Oslo to New York flight freezing since he only had cash and no credit card with him to pay the $5 fee charged by the carrier for renting a blanket, the daily newspaper Aftenposten wrote.

That followed a report last week of Norwegian crew members taking back a cup of coffee from a Thai woman after it emerged she only had cash and a local credit card with her. The woman was also unable to buy food or water on the 12-hour flight.

"This is totally unacceptable. Norwegian must ensure its passengers are treated well and we apologize deeply," company spokesman Lasse Sandaker-Nielsen told AFP.

"We are the first to admit that we have had some start-up problems on the long-haul flights," he told AFP.

Only a handful of budget airlines operate long-haul routes and passengers are sometimes surprised to find out that they have to pay for services other carriers offer free of charge.

Norwegian is going to review its policy of only accepting credit card payments and will improve its communication with customers, Sandaker-Nielsen said.

The two episodes quickly drew the ire of social media users.

"Unbelievable that people have the courage to fly Norwegian. Not being able to drink water can lead to death," said Thor Olsen on Twitter, while Tor Andre Ljosland speculated that "soon you will also need a credit card to use the toilet."

Norwegian expects to take delivery of its first Boeing 787 Dreamliner at the end of this month, almost two months behind schedule following problems with the planes' batteries.

The company has leased two Airbus A340s from Portugal's HiFly to avoid delaying the launch of its New York and Bangkok flights.

Blimey. Not good news. Sounds like a right cockup. :\

If you have to start a company to employ yourself as a pilot somewhere, you may just as well go EU-shopping and start that company somewhere else and not in the UK. Estonia and Bulgaria are currently pretty good at that, Estonia with a very favourable business taxation system, and Bulgaria with a very low flat-rate income tax rate.

Its not always a ripoff, you can play that game too.