Seriously; that must be the single most stupid comment ever made on PPRuNE. Please tell us you're taking the piss.

No need for throwing stones here, Catplay is obviously misinformed. Just some facts is, there is more then enough qualified and even experienced boys and girls in house to fill any left seat position now and in the forseable future. So just do the math............

Gentlemen (or any Ladies present) I do not wish to put the cat among the pigeons believe me.

If you look on the other Norwegian thread, I think you will find I asked, "what is your union doing".
From a personal point of view I have merely accepted a contract job, that is one of , if not the, best on the 737 whilst living in a reasonable part of the world.
No doubt you will say this is a rather simplistic view, but nonetheless it is my situation. This was initially advertised as being of 6mths duration, however, it appears your management wished this to be extended to 3 years.
I am unable to verify if there are sufficient Candidates internally to cover the companies planned expansion, you tell me there are, but they tell us we are needed.

As we have very little contact with normal line pilots, our take on the situation is mainly gleaned from what we are told by your management pilots.
I have not seen any evidence here of deliberate misinformation/manipulation of the true situation, as I said, those we have talked to have a foot in both camps, & a desire to protect the T's & C's you have.
We have been told that communication between the Union & the company has been somewhat "lacking" for quite some time. It has been suggested to us that the election of a new leader will probably result in the lines of communication being opened up a bit.
I cannot comment on what has happened thus far, as I have not been party to it, nor here to witness it, but it appears from what you say, that we are seen as stifling the career aspirations of existing FO's.
Because of this, the company appears to be planning to roster "Contract" Capt's with "Contract" FO's only, this of course will create extra workload/inefficiencies in itself.
There is no IFALPA ban, nor indeed any reason why we should not have accepted contract jobs, if we are seen as the "Big Bad Wolf", I do ask how it was allowed by your Union, over a gestation period of several months, to happen ?

Anyhow, it appears your Boss wants all new hires on a "lower total cost" base. Undoubtedly, we are a lot cheaper than you, due to self evident tax/social reasons.
I don't think we have to , as Hank suggested, "defend" our position. We would expect that the company/union would honour whatever agreement they had in place already.
The vexed Question of Commands for existing FO's, is quite possibly, the single problem that should have been tackled long before we came on the scene. The seeds for this have already been planted last year with the (I was told very poor? ) ARPI contracts on offer in HEL.
My personal feeling is that it is entirely reasonable that any full-time FO should expect to continue his career on the same contracted terms as he was hired, and not have to take a step back to take a step forward, however, that is not my fight to be fought.
You are free to say that I have totally failed to understand the situation, and indeed you may be partially right, as we have only been exposed to it, via here, and what we have been told.

If I have come across as too positive, it is because many well respected individuals have intimated to us, that in their opinion, the path is now clearer for dialogue, and finally, we all want the same, namely success for the company, & to be part of it.
I cannot deny, that us being here is perhaps not conducive to you exerting pressure on your management, but, if it wasn't us, it would be A.N.Other, finally, we all have to eat.
Many of us would have joined quite happily on a 6mth contract, & if it finally pans out this way, would be dissapointed, but not shocked.
Of course we hope to stay longer, & hope that the slightly "rose-tinted" view we have been given is at least partially justified.
It has been suggested to us that the push from the Union is more slanted towards equality for us, rather than rejection of us.
If this is the case, perhaps you may start to view us as part of the solution, rather than part of the problem ?

Yours cordially.

You're very much correct in your assessment of the situation cptplaystation. Please believe me when I say that no pilots on the permanent contract have anything against you. On the contrary. We welcome new colleagues but the core problem is that you are not really our colleagues. You are, in fact, not even employed by Norwegian. This is what the union wants to change. The main priority is to fight for everybody's right to have a permanent contract.

The ongoing conflict is of a very severe nature indeed. I would say that "permanent" contract pilots are indeed the biggest threat against our profession right now. If this development continues then where will we be in a few years? Is that the our lot in the future? To have no job security, no insurances and a constant clock on our contract? Will all the companies (the very few that are left) that offers permanent contracts with decent pay and protection be replaced by companies that utilize extreme "cost-lowering" models?

The struggle ahead is not only for the permanent pilots but for all of us. All pilots. Therefore, I hope that the contract pilots will understand the actions from the union whatever it might be. The goal is that one day we can all shake hands as true colleagues, enjoying our right to a permanent contract with acceptable pay and protection.

The company you want to be a part of does not want you to be a part of it. Kjos has clearly stated no more permanent hires in DY. Only contracts... Now ask yourself. Did you accept the contract believing you would one day be a part of the DY mainline, or did you in fact realize the possibility of never getting permanently hired by DY. If the last is the case, also what Kjos states, will you continue to work on that contract year after year?

I understand that one has to eat. Therefore one can not blame the vast amount of contract pilots... the system is ****** up.. only legal changes can stop the ridiculous way the business is evolving.

That said, we should support the pilots fighting for their permanent jobs, and the unions. If not legal changes are set into place, they are your only hope of one day being a part of DY mainline.

Thanks for your reasoned responses.

Several of your managers have suggested that the consequences of this somewhat inefficient/unworkable arrangement,comprising two separate pilot bodies, that never fly together, if presented correctly to BK, may indeed cause him to question the long-term efficacy of this arrangement.

I think I can speak for the vast majority of my colleagues when I say that, whilst we are contractually unable to help you, we will actively avoid hindering you in any way ,whilst of course respecting our "contract".

As you implied, "Best of Luck", for all of us in the long run.

A few months ahead
 

Tempting for SAS to hire the same contract pilots from DY now, for permanent positions?
SAS need the pilots soon? Steel them before they possibly agree with Norwegian?
Maybe not very likely, but even if it would put the NAX pilots back on overtime, SAS might be able to pick up some extra pax as well, as of their competitor's cancellations and less utilization of their 737s?
Anyway, contract pilots flying for Norwegian will, with good experience, be attractive to most companies. What turnover rate can Norwegian handle and how likely is the turnover of pilots to be higher than what Norwegian can handle with the benefits (or lack of Benefits) of today?

"Tempting for SAS to hire the same contract pilots from DY now, for permanent positions?"

Tempting as it may, SAS run psychological tests on their candidates. Back in the days (70s, 80s), hundreds of pilots each year would give up their career simply because they would not get a job, and let us be honest; many a pilot have not had the intellectual/psychological skills needed, only a vast dream and money from dad..

Today "low cost" carriers have discovered this and hence are offering all these pilots that otherwise flunk psychological tests with the majors, a job as long as they accept to pay for the rating/their uniform and on we go..

That is the reason we are in this situation. Earlier these pilots would never have been hired, today they can purchase their "jobs".

Pretty soon the sharpest tools in the shed will never consider a pilot education as these pilots cannot compete with the otherwise academically lower skilled candidates who seem to never run out of money.

Amen!!!!!!

positivefeather,

If it is any compensation to you, recent DEC recruitment has included ex legacy airline Capt's & one ex C.P. of a sizeable Scandi airline.

Don't confuse apples with oranges.

They run iq tests and psychological ability tests, including multi-tasking ability tests? Pilots do this? I rest my case.

positivefeather,
If you truly think 15-25 yrs in the RHS, disillusioned, with no hope of a Command :uhoh: doesn't completely cancel out ANY number of psycho tests ? then you know jacksh1t.

Just had a CRM course from a truly excellent shrink, who was at pains to point out that they know. . . Jacksh1t ! very refreshing, thanks to DY :ok:

Gentlemen (& a few, including one VERY important ! lady) your CP was a bit busy to speak to us, now he has, & now I understand, and sympathise, a lot more . . BUT, I am not leaving this contract to help you. :=
If I can however , whilst staying on the right side of my "employer" , I will, but please, don't ask for a miracle.
Deeply impressed so far with all aspects (particularly human contact) of DY, & truly hope to be seen as "on-side".
Difficult I know, for permanent FO's to see it this way, for you guys, it's a mess, truly hope you get it sorted.

All the best :ok:

Any news on the situation?

This line of thought is exactly why sas is down **** creek today. When you believe so strongly that you and your colleagues are elevated above the rest of the world, you are blind and deaf to the hard facts of this world.

Just to be pedantic. . . . . "UP sh1t creek (without a paddle)" is the fella :ok:

So, since SAS do aptitude tests, they are in deep **** today, and the pilots who pass these aptitude tests feel elevated over the rest?? WTF? Do you really believe this? Im not going to argue what is the best way of screening pilots, but since you are going to be flying a aluminum heap weighing several tons filled with fuel and and a few souls, there should at least be more tests than proving the ability to drink a cup of coffee...

"positivefeather"

"psychological ability tests, including multi-tasking ability tests" - these tests are Computer games for children!!! :ugh:

And you believe that is the best way to screen who would be a good pilot?

The arrogance of SAS attitude of their pilots is sickening, first of all SAS would not even have survived in normal market economic circumstances, as they received loads of money from their governments! That alone is extremely wrong and unfair towards Norwegian.

There was a time the only way to get a job with SAS, was that either you came from the air force (and we know how well that worked out, after research of their CRM qualities), or you had to be the son of a pilot in the company!

SAS pilots have given ALL other pilots working hard for decent terms and conditions a bad reputation in the press! The company which overall used to offer exceptional good conditions for their pilots, I assume they still do, still managed to go out on strike after strike in the past, complaints about everything! Sitting there with their + £100.000 salaries!!
What kind of signal does this give to the public opinion, try to mention anything about pilots hardships today, and bad pay, terms and conditions, you get slammed in your face all past and present history of the pilots from SAS, which seems to have created an imagine of what is the norm for pilots life, pay, terms and conditions.

Nobody will believe you, in the Norwegian public, if you try to explain them that reality is not like this for pilots today! SAS pilots have created the wrong image, damaged the reputation of all hard working pilots, not only that, SAS should not even have survived their economical problems, if it had not been due to government interference and providing the company with cash!

SAS have been put in the slow lane, look at their ticket pricing? Even BA can offer better deals, SAS is crippled by contracts they have offered to employees, terms and conditions they have provided, they have lived beyond their means for the last 30 years now, and only with companies like Norwegian, Easyjet etc. have we been made aware of the mishandling and misuse of these companies resources.

Believe me, if you think a computer game, because that was those aptitude tests are, will give you the BEST of the BEST pilots, it just shows the lack of intelligence with some of the people who takes care of recruitment!

It is very clear, aptitude tests, HR etc. is big business, this is not done just for the good of the company, somebody is making money on creating these "games"

Put a young child, who plays a lot of computer games, the chances is that he will outperform ALL professional pilot candidates! So why not just employ the children, who play computer games???

Presenting SAS as an elitist company, is BS, wait the day that SAS goes the same way Alitalia and Swiss Air did, what will happen with those genius pilots? They will be begging to work for Norwegian or ANY other company they can get their foot in with

These elite pilots, have ruined any chance of public sympathies for pilots struggling to make 2000 Euro a month, travelling across half of Europe to get home, because ALL pilots are some greedy TWATS!

Ouch! So I guess truckflyer didn't make it through SAS' aptitude tests..

I would not be eligible for SAS, as I would not fit their profile, I did some of these tests at CTC ATP, and I passed.

However I find these tests pretty dumb, if you ask me!

Try to voice ANY opinion about bad T & C's for pilots in Norwegian press, and you get NO sympathy!

"gixer" - however shows, some people can't make a proper reply, so they attack the person instead!

Here we spend up to £100.000 on training, and a £5 joystick or £50 software, poorly made, is going to decide if you get a job or not!

But leave it with that, better attacking me personally, than addressing the real issue!

Here is a fun fact, to show how SAS screwed their own pilots, when they increased the age limit from 60 to 65, loads of younger pilots had to be let go! The once who decided to stay, got they top salary of around £120.000 + pension pay of around £100.000, not bad, is it?

I am sure I would have worked another 5 years too, knowing that my pay would be over £200.000 a year. Look at articles below tells you, about those amazing pilots due to their extremely advances selection procedure. LOL what a joke!

SAS-piloter i cockpit-krangel - DN.no

En bitter og, etter pilotenes egen mening, potensielt farlig strid har oppstått mellom flyverne i SAS.

1. januar i år forlot et 70-talls av de yngste SAS pilotene selskapet etter oppsigelse. Samtidig fikk ytterligere 79 yngre SAS-piloter beskjed om at de var overtallige - og at de om seks måneder står uten jobb. Fem dager senere falt det en kjennelse i Borgarting lagmannsrett som gav åtte piloter over 60 år rett til å stå i stillingen mens de venter på at lagmannsretten skal vurdere hvorvidt de er pliktige til å gå av med pensjon ved 60 eller ikke. Pilotene tapte saken i første runde i Asker og Bærum tingrett, men lagmannsretten slår i kjennelsen fast at det er mulighet for at de kan vinne ankesaken - og gav dem derfor jobbene tilbake inntil videre.

- Sikkerhetsrisiko
Dermed har det oppstått en meget betent situasjon, fordi SAS kan komme til å sette opp de eldre, oppsagte pilotene på flyvninger sammen med de yngre som også har mistet jobben kanskje nettopp fordi kollegaen nekter å gå av med pensjon.

DN.no har fått tilgang til en intern melding lagt ut på de passordbeskyttede hjemmesidene til Norske SAS-flygeres Forening. Der advares det mot å la to oppsagte piloter fly sammen samtidig:

«Denne kombinasjonen er giftig og etter vår vurdering en potensiell sikkerhetsrisiko».

Les også: - En veldig viktig sak for alle eldre arbeidstakere

Det er allerede et faktum at forholdet mellom de oppsagte yngre og de oppsagte eldre pilotene er alt annet enn kollegialt. DN.no har fått bekreftet fra flere hold at beskyldningene om mobbing og trakassering hagler.

“Vi har sagt til SAS: Tenk om noe skulle skje, hvor dum ville ikke da denne hendelsen se ut.
Jens Lippestad
De eldre pilotene som nekter å gå av med pensjon, har blant annet mottatt sjikanerende lapper i posthyllene sine, fått ufine tilrop, og opplevd at yngre piloter reiser seg demonstrativt fra bordet de setter seg ved i kantinen. Fra ledelseshold har de fått beskjed om å levere inn uniformene sine.

- Jeg kan bekrefte at det har forekommet noen slike episoder. Det tar vi sterk avstand fra, ingen skal mobbes. Selv om man kan forstå at noen reagerer, er det barnslig og heller ikke lovlig, sier leder av Norske SAS-flyveres Forening, Jens Lippestad, til DN.no.

Men han er rask med å tilføye at det er delte meninger om hvem som egentlig blir utsatt for de største overgrepene.

- Mange av våre yngre piloter himler med øynene når de hører om mobbepåstandene av de eldre. Det er mange av dem som føler at det heller er de selv som blir mobbet og trakassert, sier Lippestad.

Sendes til psykolog
Han mener det er en form for trakassering av de yngre når de eldre pilotene nekter å gå av med pensjon, selv om det vitterlig står i tariffavtalen at pensjonsalder er 60 år. At SAS-ledelsen i tillegg setter de yngre pilotene opp på flyvninger med de samme personene som indirekte er årsak til at de mister jobben sin, kan det virke som en annen form for trakassering, mener han.

- Det har vært episoder der yngre piloter har sagt at de ikke ønsker å fly med de eldre, fordi de frykter at de ikke klarer å konsentrere seg tilstrekkelig om jobben på en måte som kan gå ut over sikkerheten. Da har ledelsen i SAS svart med at i så fall må de sendes til psykolog. Men det er jo friske mennesker det er snakk om. De er ikke syk, men gjør sin plikt ved å si i fra om de ikke føler seg skikket til å fly, påpeker Lippestad.

- Hva legger dere i ordet sikkerhetsrisiko?

- Når folk kommer og ser at de har blitt satt opp på flyvning med den samme personen som gjør at man har fått sparken, kan man bli så opprørt at det går ut over den konsentrasjonen som jobben krever.

- Men er én oppsagt pilot i det hele tatt konsentrert nok til å være på jobb?

- Det er er et vanskelig spørsmål, og jeg har tenkt tanken selv. Men samtidig stoler vi på at den enkelte gjør en selvstendig vurdering av om han klarer å konsentrere seg. Men den ultimate vanskelige situasjonen er jo når to piloter skal fly sammen der den ene er oppsagt og den andre er årsaken.

- Kan norske flypassasjerer være trygge på at det ikke tar av fly i Norge med to oppsagte piloter i bitter strid med hverandre bak spakene?

- Ikke hvis vi blir presset av ledelsen i SAS til å gjøre det. Det er de som må vurdere sikkerheten, og vi har tillit til at flyvesjefen i SAS tar en god beslutning i denne saken. Men vi har sagt klart i fra: Tenk om noe skulle skje, hvor dum ville ikke da denne hendelsen se ut, sier Lippestad, som fremholder at ingen passasjerer trenger å føle seg utrygge.

- Vi har ikke sagt at det er en sikkerhetsrisko, men at det er en potensiell sikkerhetsrisko, understreker han.

Viktig prinsippsak
Foreningen støtter ikke de eldre pilotenes kamp for å bli ved spakene til sikkerhetsbestemmelsene tvinger dem ut av cockpit som 65-åringer. Tvert om har fagforeningen inngått en avtale med SAS om at de over 60 må gå først ved nedbemanninger - et prinsipp hvis gyldighet nå altså skal prøves for lagmannsretten.

Saken handler om viktige prinsipper for flere enn bare flypilotene: Hva skal veie tyngst ved en nedbemanning?

Ansiennitetsprinsippet: At den som har vært kortest ansatt i bedriften skal først ut.
Vern av eldre arbeidstakere: I Norge er det forbudt å si opp folk på grunn av høy alder - dersom det ikke er begrunnet med særaldersgrenser. Internasjonale regler tillater nå piloter å fly til de er 65 år.
Hensyn til dem som rammes hardest: Loven gir ekstra beskyttelse til arbeidstakere som rammes hardt av en oppsigelse.


- Det retten skal ta stilling til er om det er rimelig at man heller setter en mann på 40 år med familie og barn på bar bakke, fremfor en eldre person som uansatt har opparbeidet seg en full og god pensjon. Hvis man skal ta hensyn til dem det rammer, kan jeg ikke begripe at de eldre pilotene skal vinne denne saken, sier Lippestad.

De eldre pilotene har naturligvis en ganske annen oppfatning av hvem som er den svake gruppen.

Les intervjuet med advokat Alex Borch: - En veldig viktig sak for alle eldre arbeidstakere

- Har ikke ofret ansiennitetsprinsippet
Fagforeningen mener dessuten de eldre opptrer dypt illojalt mot sine yngre kollegaer og foreningen, ettersom det faktisk står i den kollektive avtalen at pensjonsalderen er 60 år.

Derfor handler ikke dette om ansiennitetsprinsippet skal følges eller ikke, men om en avtale skal følges eller ikke, mener han.

- Alle må følge spillereglene. De visste da de begynte i SAS at pensjonsalderen var 60 år. Alt er lagt opp til at de skal gå av da, blant annet er pensjonen fullt opptjent. Det er ikke opptil hver enkelt å bare gjøre hva man vil i et kollektiv.

Lippestad sier ansiennitetsprinsippet fortsatt gjelder i SAS - når det ikke lenger er noen piloter tilbake over 60 år, går fagforeningen inn for å igjen kutte først blant de som har jobbet kortest.

- Men nå er aldersgrensen for piloter hevet fra 60 til 65 år internasjonalt. Er det ikke da naturlig at man får lov å stå i stillingen videre dersom man ønsker det?

- Nei, 65 år er en absolutt yttergrense for hvor gammel man kan være. Det er helt legalt å avtale at grensen settes før, sier Lippestad.

Gamle og svindyre piloter i SAS - DN.no

Please, let's not go into that discussion again. It is of absolutely no relevance to the thread, and most importantly it's of no importance to our future terms and conditions in this business.
This is actually what is destroying our negotiating power today. We need to stand united as a group of professionals, not as employees of a specific company.

The single most important question for us today is the question of Norwegians terms and conditions, and for us to be able to have negotiating power and basic social rights in the future they need to end the contract-employments.

As of now Norwegian is growing quickly, and other operators will dictate their terms and conditions based on what Norwegian has in the future.
I really hope the pilots in Norwegian will pull this through. And I hope that all of us in this profession are smart enough to back them up in every way possible.