DAT gets swedish government contracts - wonder why...
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SVE:
Saint00:
Well, that’s not quite the way I see it. You are saying; if pilots are desperate enough to pay to work - Take advantage of them!
Ok, fair enough, some people prefer this "laissez-faire" type of economy. But then I sincerely hope that you think that the pilots have the same right to take advantage of a desperate company in need of crew.
So when the day comes when DAT or any other company finds themselves short of pilots, then we should all just say “pay us twice as much or the fleet stays on the ground.”
Don’t you think it would be better if there was a mutual understanding between us to pay/demand a reasonable salary for the job that we do?
(Btw, I’m still wondering about those 5 stripes!)
However we cannot blame the companies for doing this
Do not blame the seller
Ok, fair enough, some people prefer this "laissez-faire" type of economy. But then I sincerely hope that you think that the pilots have the same right to take advantage of a desperate company in need of crew.
So when the day comes when DAT or any other company finds themselves short of pilots, then we should all just say “pay us twice as much or the fleet stays on the ground.”
Don’t you think it would be better if there was a mutual understanding between us to pay/demand a reasonable salary for the job that we do?
(Btw, I’m still wondering about those 5 stripes!)
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I am amazed!
A DAT-bashing that (almost) died in less than 3 full pages... what is the world coming to
?
To add to (and verify) the info given by Kopfschmetzen & SVE, all the FOTs that have been flying on the ATR have been or will be permanently employed. A "baglog" of FOT candidates will be trained, and after OCC is completed, they will also be employed on full time contract. Those FOTs still with the company from the BE90-FOT programme will transfer to the ATR this winter - on permanent contracts as well. All FOTs from the BE1900 programme are employed on permanent contracts as well.
It appears that DAT wanted to get to know people with 250 hrs. before they were put on a company-sponsored OCC. Fair enough - cause people have to earn their experience somewhere. If they were experienced (i.e. met standard requirements, 700 TT / 100 IFR / 40 IFR M/E PiC / Turbine experience), they would have been employed from day 1 on permanent contract.
So, in the end, all FOTs got what they wanted - job on a FAR25 A/C. Weather you pay up front or run around the SunAir hangar for 2 years - isn't the result the same?
It appears that some people get a good rant out of the FOT programme every time it is brought up. Good for you - takes out a lot of stress, doesn't it? Anyway, the FOT programme is not being re-instated - you may read whatever you like into this fact. But if it really WAS such a cash-cow, why then kill it? Maybe the airlines existence did not depend on it? Maybe everybody got fed up with listening to the holier-than-thou-crowd flinging inconsistent information & rumours through the air?
Anyway, unless people work for the company, I find it hard taking info from them on the subject seriously. I don't tell everybody else how SAS is being run - because I don't work there and don't know jack sh!t about it. People flying for SunAir don't explain the mysteries of Maersk operations to everybody else - for the same reason.
The difference is that some people know what they are informed about & stick to those subjects, others don't. This is a PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network, gents! Professionals know when to say : yes / no / thanks for bringing it up, I really don't know, I'll look into it, one sec, please.
Could you imagine one pilot asking: "What's that step-down altitude again?" and the other replying: "I was here 5 years ago, back the it was..." or "I know somebody who says it is..." or "I have heard that it is...".
Professional
Stop the slandering, get the facts!
PS: The 5th stripe can be acquired for 650 mill. DKK
A DAT-bashing that (almost) died in less than 3 full pages... what is the world coming to
?To add to (and verify) the info given by Kopfschmetzen & SVE, all the FOTs that have been flying on the ATR have been or will be permanently employed. A "baglog" of FOT candidates will be trained, and after OCC is completed, they will also be employed on full time contract. Those FOTs still with the company from the BE90-FOT programme will transfer to the ATR this winter - on permanent contracts as well. All FOTs from the BE1900 programme are employed on permanent contracts as well.
It appears that DAT wanted to get to know people with 250 hrs. before they were put on a company-sponsored OCC. Fair enough - cause people have to earn their experience somewhere. If they were experienced (i.e. met standard requirements, 700 TT / 100 IFR / 40 IFR M/E PiC / Turbine experience), they would have been employed from day 1 on permanent contract.
So, in the end, all FOTs got what they wanted - job on a FAR25 A/C. Weather you pay up front or run around the SunAir hangar for 2 years - isn't the result the same?
It appears that some people get a good rant out of the FOT programme every time it is brought up. Good for you - takes out a lot of stress, doesn't it? Anyway, the FOT programme is not being re-instated - you may read whatever you like into this fact. But if it really WAS such a cash-cow, why then kill it? Maybe the airlines existence did not depend on it? Maybe everybody got fed up with listening to the holier-than-thou-crowd flinging inconsistent information & rumours through the air?
Anyway, unless people work for the company, I find it hard taking info from them on the subject seriously. I don't tell everybody else how SAS is being run - because I don't work there and don't know jack sh!t about it. People flying for SunAir don't explain the mysteries of Maersk operations to everybody else - for the same reason.
The difference is that some people know what they are informed about & stick to those subjects, others don't. This is a PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network, gents! Professionals know when to say : yes / no / thanks for bringing it up, I really don't know, I'll look into it, one sec, please.
Could you imagine one pilot asking: "What's that step-down altitude again?" and the other replying: "I was here 5 years ago, back the it was..." or "I know somebody who says it is..." or "I have heard that it is...".
Professional Stop the slandering, get the facts!
PS: The 5th stripe can be acquired for 650 mill. DKK
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Empty Cruise:
"Stop the slandering, get the facts!
PS: The 5th stripe can be acquired for 650 mill. DKK"
Please help me get the facts straight here. 650 Mill. DKK is the net value of Danish Air Transport? Then surely the rumours of desperate cost cutting measures to save the company must be false!
"Stop the slandering, get the facts!
PS: The 5th stripe can be acquired for 650 mill. DKK"
Please help me get the facts straight here. 650 Mill. DKK is the net value of Danish Air Transport? Then surely the rumours of desperate cost cutting measures to save the company must be false!
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Ole Brumm
de 650 mill har jeg også meget svært ved at tro på, men det var heller ikke min påstand.... Flyflåden er næppe mere end 300 mil værd og er vel næppe betalt.
Der imod var du citeret direkte for det andet. Har du noget fornuftigt at komme med eller er dine bidrag som RTO tidligere bare varm luft ?
Mener du DAT opfører sig desparat som for eksempel som SAS, SC, Premiair, Coastair som fyrer piloter og andet personale eller desparat som Cimber og Maersk som fyrer og genansætter i hastig rækkefølge ?
Eller desparat som at ansætte og uddanne 12-15 nye ATR piloter som er det info jeg har fået af Chef piloten ?
Jeg står foran at skulle beslutte ansættelse i DAT så kom nu med det !
de 650 mill har jeg også meget svært ved at tro på, men det var heller ikke min påstand.... Flyflåden er næppe mere end 300 mil værd og er vel næppe betalt.
Der imod var du citeret direkte for det andet. Har du noget fornuftigt at komme med eller er dine bidrag som RTO tidligere bare varm luft ?
Mener du DAT opfører sig desparat som for eksempel som SAS, SC, Premiair, Coastair som fyrer piloter og andet personale eller desparat som Cimber og Maersk som fyrer og genansætter i hastig rækkefølge ?
Eller desparat som at ansætte og uddanne 12-15 nye ATR piloter som er det info jeg har fået af Chef piloten ?
Jeg står foran at skulle beslutte ansættelse i DAT så kom nu med det !
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Sabre, I know you did not say anything about the 650 mill. I am trying to get Empty Cruise to explain that. He seems to be wery well informed!
Like I said, all I have is false rumours, nobody wants to listen to that anyway. They are not about hiring and firing.
About hiring and firing: The contract in Sweden should give new ATR jobs. I think they fired only 2 ATR pilots recently.
Concidering new job offers is usually easy at the moment, since they tend to come one at the time. Lucky you if you have good alternatives!
Like I said, all I have is false rumours, nobody wants to listen to that anyway. They are not about hiring and firing.
About hiring and firing: The contract in Sweden should give new ATR jobs. I think they fired only 2 ATR pilots recently.
Concidering new job offers is usually easy at the moment, since they tend to come one at the time. Lucky you if you have good alternatives!
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Hi Ole & Sabre,
The guy with the 5 stripes was Jesper The 5th stripe started as a joke: "I'm MD, chief pilot & own the aircraft - if I can't get a 5th stripe, who can"? The 5th stripe has been retired now, but that's another story. Anyway, Jesper was asked the same question about a year ago - how do I get that 5th stripe? The answer was prompt: "Let go of 650 mill. and it's all yours" 
The "desperate cost-cutting measures" appears to be another of the wild geese... If you forecast stormy weather, you usually batten down the hatches, so people with vacation to spare were asked to take it then in stead of now, that's all. The 2 pilots laid off - come with a story of their own as well .
Sabre, hope to see you down there soon (or in CPH 16/09) - if you need to have your fears stilled, drop a mail.
C U up there,
Empty
The guy with the 5 stripes was Jesper
The 5th stripe started as a joke: "I'm MD, chief pilot & own the aircraft - if I can't get a 5th stripe, who can"? The 5th stripe has been retired now, but that's another story. Anyway, Jesper was asked the same question about a year ago - how do I get that 5th stripe? The answer was prompt: "Let go of 650 mill. and it's all yours" The "desperate cost-cutting measures" appears to be another of the wild geese... If you forecast stormy weather, you usually batten down the hatches, so people with vacation to spare were asked to take it then in stead of now, that's all. The 2 pilots laid off - come with a story of their own as well
.Sabre, hope to see you down there soon (or in CPH 16/09) - if you need to have your fears stilled, drop a mail.
C U up there,
Empty
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With: "rumours of desperate cost cutting measures", I was thinking of sharing of hotel rooms, crew put in flats with bedrooms for half of them, and a general threat that any expence over this will bring the company down.
They also have to pay for the full cost of any pilot error.
They also have to pay for the full cost of any pilot error.
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OK, here we go again
I've been with the company for 1,5 years now and have never shared or heard of people sharing hotel rooms (unless they wanted to, which I frankly believe is there own business).
Putting people in flats with beds for only half or them? Where is that? ABZ? Not! HEL? Not! LIS? Not! SEN? Not! CDG? Not! AAL? Not! EBJ? Not! Am I missing some of our flats or do you know something that I don't?
The EBJ house has housed up to 6 people with 2 sharing a room, that is correct. But this was personnel with EBJ base, so frankly, how they stay there is not a company problem. Have you heard if Mr. O'Leary has provideded any of the non-Irish FR boys with a place to live - at their base? Well, neither have I, but that does not make me claim that FR let their pilots sleep on the street!
"A general threat"? I don't know about your company, Ole, but I have never heard threaths issued in DAT. Maybe I'm missing something (just the way I missed the thing with the apartments...). Unless yoiu work here & have heard or been subjected to threaths, I would show extreme caution in what I say about what happens in other companies.
"They have to pay the full cost for any pilot error"? Well, as I've concluded above, I'm missing much of what is going on in the company, but I have never recieved any bills myself. I know of only 1 bill being sent to a (former) employee, and that regarded gross neglect. If you cannot even read a 8-item checklist, I cannot feel sorry for you. But all the other "pilot errors" - nobody pays for them themselves - that is a downright lie!
Ole, my suggestion to you has been stated before, but apparently it needs saying again:
Stop the slandering - get the facts.
Unless you work for the company, I think you ought to keep hearsay to yourself. At any rate, it says more about you than it says about the company. And I think that no company (less the one you work for, of course) is worth tarnishing yourself over, is it?
Best regards,
Empty
I've been with the company for 1,5 years now and have never shared or heard of people sharing hotel rooms (unless they wanted to, which I frankly believe is there own business).
Putting people in flats with beds for only half or them? Where is that? ABZ? Not! HEL? Not! LIS? Not! SEN? Not! CDG? Not! AAL? Not! EBJ? Not! Am I missing some of our flats or do you know something that I don't?
The EBJ house has housed up to 6 people with 2 sharing a room, that is correct. But this was personnel with EBJ base, so frankly, how they stay there is not a company problem. Have you heard if Mr. O'Leary has provideded any of the non-Irish FR boys with a place to live - at their base? Well, neither have I, but that does not make me claim that FR let their pilots sleep on the street!
"A general threat"? I don't know about your company, Ole, but I have never heard threaths issued in DAT. Maybe I'm missing something (just the way I missed the thing with the apartments...). Unless yoiu work here & have heard or been subjected to threaths, I would show extreme caution in what I say about what happens in other companies.
"They have to pay the full cost for any pilot error"? Well, as I've concluded above, I'm missing much of what is going on in the company, but I have never recieved any bills myself. I know of only 1 bill being sent to a (former) employee, and that regarded gross neglect. If you cannot even read a 8-item checklist, I cannot feel sorry for you. But all the other "pilot errors" - nobody pays for them themselves - that is a downright lie!
Ole, my suggestion to you has been stated before, but apparently it needs saying again:
Stop the slandering - get the facts.
Unless you work for the company, I think you ought to keep hearsay to yourself. At any rate, it says more about you than it says about the company. And I think that no company (less the one you work for, of course) is worth tarnishing yourself over, is it?
Best regards,
Empty
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Empty Cruise, tak for et godt og informativ indlæg. [Edit: jeg kan se at du postede et nyt indlæg 1 min før dette - for klarhedens skyld, så er det af den 16 august kl. 17:06 jeg referer til]
Jeg kan nu tildels forstå og acceptere DAT's motiv for deres måde at handle på. Og det er jo det gode ved debat - at udveksle synspunkter og evt. ændre dem hvis man bliver presenteret for gode argumenter. Det er vel hele formålet med et forum som PPRuNe. Derfor synes jeg ikke at det er rimeligt at sige at man ikke bør debatere noget som man ikke har 100% facts omkring. Hvordan skulle debaten så overhovedet begynde? Og hvis vi ikke kunne debatere, hvordan skulle dem der ikke viste 100% omkring emnet så blive oplyst?
Tilbage til DAT. Det er bare en skam at DAT's bevæggrund ikke har været meldt klart ud fra start (så havde DAT måske stået i et bedre lys og hele debaten undgået). Jeg synes også at det er uheldigt at kalde det pay for training eller hvilket synonym der nu er blevet brugt. Havde det ikke været mere klart for enhver hvis man havde valgt at kalde det en prøve periode eller lignende (hvis altså det hele tiden har været meningen at fuldtids ansætte folk efter deres timer var overstået og såfremt folk havde opført sig ordenligt).
Du virker til at være vel informeret, så kan og vil du også forklare hvorfor DAT er gået bort fra pay for training igen?
Jeg kan nu tildels forstå og acceptere DAT's motiv for deres måde at handle på. Og det er jo det gode ved debat - at udveksle synspunkter og evt. ændre dem hvis man bliver presenteret for gode argumenter. Det er vel hele formålet med et forum som PPRuNe. Derfor synes jeg ikke at det er rimeligt at sige at man ikke bør debatere noget som man ikke har 100% facts omkring. Hvordan skulle debaten så overhovedet begynde? Og hvis vi ikke kunne debatere, hvordan skulle dem der ikke viste 100% omkring emnet så blive oplyst?
Tilbage til DAT. Det er bare en skam at DAT's bevæggrund ikke har været meldt klart ud fra start (så havde DAT måske stået i et bedre lys og hele debaten undgået). Jeg synes også at det er uheldigt at kalde det pay for training eller hvilket synonym der nu er blevet brugt. Havde det ikke været mere klart for enhver hvis man havde valgt at kalde det en prøve periode eller lignende (hvis altså det hele tiden har været meningen at fuldtids ansætte folk efter deres timer var overstået og såfremt folk havde opført sig ordenligt).
Du virker til at være vel informeret, så kan og vil du også forklare hvorfor DAT er gået bort fra pay for training igen?
Last edited by YAM; 18th Aug 2002 at 17:09.
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OLeary does provide a place to the crews to sleep, its the cockpit after the last sector, no point going to wherever you call home.
And to you guys slagging off DAT.
Do you remember when you started flying? Any job to get into the business should be taken, if youve got a license surely you are old enough to decide to pay or not to pay!
Nothing wrong with a start on an ATR. Wish i had that luxery when i started.
Good Luck to you guys starting out, its a great life and career.
Saw an ATR 42 in Helsinki recently outside the DHL building, Greattttt colour scheme! Do you guys get the big bag of fruit from Airops too???
And to you guys slagging off DAT.
Do you remember when you started flying? Any job to get into the business should be taken, if youve got a license surely you are old enough to decide to pay or not to pay!
Nothing wrong with a start on an ATR. Wish i had that luxery when i started.
Good Luck to you guys starting out, its a great life and career.
Saw an ATR 42 in Helsinki recently outside the DHL building, Greattttt colour scheme! Do you guys get the big bag of fruit from Airops too???
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Empty Cruise:
With regard to sharing of hotel rooms and bedrooms in flats, I did not say always and everywhere, perhaps you would care to check it with your people before you present your "facts".
PS. When you tell me: "....I would show extreme caution in what I say about..." What is that? A form of advise?
With regard to sharing of hotel rooms and bedrooms in flats, I did not say always and everywhere, perhaps you would care to check it with your people before you present your "facts".
PS. When you tell me: "....I would show extreme caution in what I say about..." What is that? A form of advise?
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Hi all,
YAM - point taken! Vi skal selvfølgelig debbatere frit, også selv om vi ikke sidder inde med 100% facts (og hvem gør iøvrigt det
). Man bliver bare sådan lidt træt af stort set alle og enhver udtaler sig som om de var den endegyldige autoritet på lige emnet DAT - når de ikke arbejder her. Der er mange (og skal være plads til mange) holdninger til DAT - hvis folk så bare kunne forny historierne lidt fra gang til gang. Hvis folk siger "I DAT gør de sådan & sådan" - så lyder det da som om de faktisk ved hvad de taler om. Så en lidt mere afslappet tone ville være rart - f.eks. "Er det sandt at de i DAT gør..."?
Hvad der har været intentionen med FOT-programmet gør jeg mig ikke klog på - men jeg TROR at teksten til annoncen lød noget á lá "Suitable candidates will be offered full time employment after..." Om det så er en intention ved jeg ikke... er der nogen der har teksten ved hånden?
EUROTHRASH - ja, de bliver aldrig væk på parkeringspladsen. Vidste ikke at O'leary var i gavehumør - så kom jeg alligevel til at udtale mig skråsikkert om noget i et andet firma jeg ikke anede en sk!d om 
:o
OLE BRUMM - you didn't say anything to the contrary either. When you were here, you may well have experienced something along those lines, people here have told me - so sorry for not checking the facts before I posted. If you show caution or not is really your own choice, I just spoke for meself...
Brgds,
Empty
YAM - point taken! Vi skal selvfølgelig debbatere frit, også selv om vi ikke sidder inde med 100% facts (og hvem gør iøvrigt det
). Man bliver bare sådan lidt træt af stort set alle og enhver udtaler sig som om de var den endegyldige autoritet på lige emnet DAT - når de ikke arbejder her. Der er mange (og skal være plads til mange) holdninger til DAT - hvis folk så bare kunne forny historierne lidt fra gang til gang. Hvis folk siger "I DAT gør de sådan & sådan" - så lyder det da som om de faktisk ved hvad de taler om. Så en lidt mere afslappet tone ville være rart - f.eks. "Er det sandt at de i DAT gør..."?Hvad der har været intentionen med FOT-programmet gør jeg mig ikke klog på - men jeg TROR at teksten til annoncen lød noget á lá "Suitable candidates will be offered full time employment after..." Om det så er en intention ved jeg ikke... er der nogen der har teksten ved hånden?
EUROTHRASH - ja, de bliver aldrig væk på parkeringspladsen
. Vidste ikke at O'leary var i gavehumør - så kom jeg alligevel til at udtale mig skråsikkert om noget i et andet firma jeg ikke anede en sk!d om :o OLE BRUMM - you didn't say anything to the contrary either. When you were here, you may well have experienced something along those lines, people here have told me - so sorry for not checking the facts before I posted. If you show caution or not is really your own choice, I just spoke for meself...
Brgds,
Empty
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Empty: A question mark makes a rumour a question.
I thought the PPRuNe forums were mainly for good old juicy "c-rumours", not questions. If you have questions or fancy a more "afslappet tone", try the Questions-forum. It is described as: "If you have a question for professional pilots please post it here. If it isn't a Rumour or News then this is where you will probably find it." Let's not make our Nordic forum into a dull forum similar to a fact-finding committee.
fwc
Hvis folk siger "I DAT gør de sådan & sådan" - så lyder det da som om de faktisk ved hvad de taler om. Så en lidt mere afslappet tone ville være rart - f.eks. "Er det sandt at de i DAT gør..."?
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I think we lost the thread here...
It’s quite annoying that “Rikstrafiken” doesn’t take a stand against these kind of behaviour from DAT. From what I have heard their offer were at least 100 million lower then any other competitor.
Shoot me if I’m wrong.
Shoot me if I’m wrong.
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Prince Buster
Du kan betragte dig selv som skudt !
I henhold til oplysningerne fra Svenska Flygbolag er den samlede Rikstraffik støtte på alle ruter på ca SEK 60.000.000 pr år inklusive Sveg, Torsby og vist en eller to destinationer mere.
Hvis DAT modtager, lad os sige alle 60.000.000, skulle næste udbyder ifølge dig have forlangt SEK 160.000.000.
Tror du selv at 10-15 FOT piloter kan bidrage med dette og synes du at de svenske skatteydere skulle have betalt 100.000.000 mere ?
Kan du følge mig ?
Hvordan synes du selv det går ?
Du kan betragte dig selv som skudt !
I henhold til oplysningerne fra Svenska Flygbolag er den samlede Rikstraffik støtte på alle ruter på ca SEK 60.000.000 pr år inklusive Sveg, Torsby og vist en eller to destinationer mere.
Hvis DAT modtager, lad os sige alle 60.000.000, skulle næste udbyder ifølge dig have forlangt SEK 160.000.000.
Tror du selv at 10-15 FOT piloter kan bidrage med dette og synes du at de svenske skatteydere skulle have betalt 100.000.000 mere ?
Kan du følge mig ?
Hvordan synes du selv det går ?
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Sabre er ikke helt galt på den
Hvad er der skammeligt i at komme med det laveste bud? Er det ikke det, der har skaffet os alle fordelene ved at leve i kapitalistiske samfund? Jeg forstår ikke at Rikstrafikken skulle have problemer med at tage lowest bidder (så længe buddet ikke er et dumping-forsøg, i.e. at udbyderen beviseligt vil tabe penge på det) - deres opgave er at fragte mennesker rundt i Norrlandet, ikke at supporte flag-carriers.
Jeg ta'r faktisk hatten af for at de har "cohones" til at vælge en udenlandsk udbyder .
Happy flying to all,
Empty
Hvad er der skammeligt i at komme med det laveste bud? Er det ikke det, der har skaffet os alle fordelene ved at leve i kapitalistiske samfund? Jeg forstår ikke at Rikstrafikken skulle have problemer med at tage lowest bidder (så længe buddet ikke er et dumping-forsøg, i.e. at udbyderen beviseligt vil tabe penge på det) - deres opgave er at fragte mennesker rundt i Norrlandet, ikke at supporte flag-carriers.
Jeg ta'r faktisk hatten af for at de har "cohones" til at vælge en udenlandsk udbyder
.Happy flying to all,
Empty
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hörrru sabre, jag ska gladeligen hjälpa dig att skjuta buster .......
och buster, hur kommer det sig att det var dig jag tog bowlinggreppet på??????
/Njut Bengan.
och buster, hur kommer det sig att det var dig jag tog bowlinggreppet på??????
/Njut Bengan.
