K21

Yepp, it`s the hard fact! Once again, good luck to you all!

empati

Well put, Gnirren!

And now...the top airline pay in scandinavia will be reduced! Who will benefit from that? Nobody! Ok..maybe management and costumers. But I would not be surprised if even Widerøe years from now will end up with a "normal" regional airline contract. The golden era is over!

JimbosJet

I was under the impression that seniority lists are now effectively illegal under EU employment law when used to make redundancies. Well it could be should the company concerned need to "use" it as such. I mention this as pilots from a UK airline tried to use the seniority list as a defence against their "unfair dismissal" when they were selected for redundancy after 9-11 to no avail. The airline was retiring its aged old fleet in favour of the new type, I leave it to you to guess which fleet the majority of pilots were on!

This is of no consolation to those now without a job, sign of the times and sadly I think its here to stay. Good luck to whoever is affected, things will pick up.... eventually, and hopefully much sooner that!

Gnirren

I wouldn't look for much support from swedish .no pilots, they're been staring at ARN ever since they got hired My bet is they can't wait for the entire .se operation to be closed down so they can move back to a brand new .no base in stockholm instead.

I suppose they have a point too, maybe they heard at the interview there would be a swedish base only to see nasty flynordic people get it all
Just remember this friends, the swedish pilots earn a pittance compared to you, and you had all the oportunity in the world to apply back in 07 but you didn't because of pay.

So.. queen comes to mind here. "I want it aaaaall and I want it now!"

Cloud surfer

Just so I get it right; if Spanair furloughs pilots then Hanguren would expect SAS to place them into mainline on their existing seniority number? Were you on the barrackades when WF furloughed 6 pilots a few years back asking SAS to give them a 737 rating and oslo base with all seniority intact?

If Virgin Blue or Virgin America lays off pilots, are Virgin Atlantic expected to pick up the furloughs, given them an a340 or 744 rating, and merge them into the LHR lists?

Can the same be said for all Lufthansa subsidiaries? At one point Helikopterservice (CHC Canada) owned Lufttransport.... I suppose any redundancies there should be picked up by the parent?

Or am I missing something here?


oh..and....

That was the problem. SC FOs making more than WF FCs flying the same routes on the same aircraft in the same cockpit? Who's budget pays the "salary difference" doesn't matter when it all comes form the same bottom line anyway....

BestGlide

(sorry, for lat til å tenke på engelsk)

WF tok vel inn noen permitterte/sparkede SAS-piloter for noen år siden. De måtte søke jobb og de måtte gjennom det samme opptaket og intervjuet som alle andre. Først når det kom til kursstart og ansettelse ble det gitt prioritet i "holding poolen".

Same ****, different wrapping

Manamanah

Yes, the whole issue is to get out of paying 737 ratings for the .se guys.

I think that Norwegian is not at all so financially stable than the last figures suggests. I think this year will be at tough one for Mr Kjos and therefore paying more ratings is not an option. Especially for an operation such as CPH where they will be in competition with Transavia.

I find it hard to believe that Norwegian will prosper in a year then Ryanair is supposed to make a massive loss...

Crossunder

How very mature of you, Mr. 13thstage, but I really don't mind. Really - it sure must suck big time to be among the 36. Much like the famous CX 49-ers. Were we to meet, we'd both probably tone it down quite a few notches... This loudmouth exaggeration and hostility is the "beauty" of anonymous(?) rumour networks.
I was one of the lucky winners to be given leave notice at WF back in -03 (I think), and I know the feeling of utter contempt for the ones who did not want to work part-time or otherwise contribute in order to save jobs (mine, in particular of course). Don't blame me because your bosses sold the airline. If the seniority list in .se isn't used when firing people, that would be a job for the .se union - again, don't blame me! Either way, I'm not certain that either of us is fully informed about the state of affairs

malteblaxhed:

If that's the case (you do not want a merger of lists), then the fired pilots are still in trouble if there is going to be only one AOC for one single company, because you are not employed by .no, right? I.e. you'll have to be re-hired anyway? I might me wrong here... I think the heart of the matter is the cost of type ratings and the uncertain future of the CHP operation.
Like Manamanah says - the shaky financial situation in DY does not allow for 36 type ratings to be handed out, since we do not yet know if we are going to need all pilots come July 2009...

Anyways - neither DY nor Fly Nordic are the cream of the crop to work for. Quite a few pilots at DY are feeling shafted for not getting an upgrade as the CPH base is opened. Instead, they are hiring contract pilots...
If anyone's feeling fed up - then go work for another airline! Qatar, Emirates, Etihad, Gulf Air and the likes in the Middle and Far East are still hiring - DHL, Cargolux, Lufthansa, Widerøe and many more have been hiring in Europe (and still are). The 300 fired SAS pilots weren't too happy with losing their jobs (while BU pilots kept their), but found new pastures pretty quick. The ex SC pilots are still treated like outcasts by many of their colleagues, and I'm sure some pilots in WF would like to see Norsk Air reborn.

What is happening, is that this industry is going to shythe at a high rate of speed. Much like the process Norwegian sailors went through during the 80's. Phillippinecrew have taken over (cheap, and plenty of'em), and the left-over captain/FO jobs are poorly paid.

Cloud Surfer: Excactly.

Guttn

So what is really being said here is that everysthing and everybody has to give right of passage to economy. Without a proper union, and unions who have mutual agreements, seniority lists are only worth the paper they are written on.

Crossunder makes a good point here, saying that the ex-SAS 300 pilots found new pastures fairly quickly. And, yes, it suck a big one losing your job. And an even bigger one if you get shafted by less senior pilots, and get your upgrade postponed due to contract pilots. Lowest bidder gets the job; company pays less wages and could probably get away with contract pilots paying for their own OPC/PC for currency.

But this is just an extension of what has already been going on; pilots buying jobs and linetraining to get ahead of other colleagues. But now, it`s the companies who can pick and choose and wreak havoc amongst aircrew.

paradropper

RTO,
Are you for real? Your comment adds nothing to this thread other than immaturity and stupidity


What is interesting is that nobody has challenged or questioned Cloud surfers last post.

Lima_Foxtrot

There are a lot of question marks in my head regarding how all this was handled. I could see how all this was going to turn out ugly already back in May 2008. But this, which just happened in .se is an outrage and a scandal of great magnitude.

Norwegian has showed that their pilots have no value at all, and that this is pure business and nothing else. Apparently the board wanted to fire all MD-80 pilots and keep the 737-pilots in the company, but obviously this was not really suitable. Instead they came up with this solution, and it seems that they have done it all in accordance with the law. The moral aspects of this bulls#¤t are not relevant any more.

I get really angry when I think about what they are putting us through. I came to realize that the best thing to do, is to move on... The Union is helpless and it is the companies that are laying out all the terms in todays society. The company has divided it self into several different layers where pilots are on different terms and potentially are put into the same aircrafts on these different terms. This is the true bull#¤t, and it is the same on the Cabin Crew side.

I would rather work for Ryan Air where everyone at least is treated the same... And maybe I will...

Lima_Foxtrot

K21

The expression, "Face the facts", is a harsh one to swallow, but I think that`s just what the concerned pilots in Fly Nordic has to do! To be honest, I know how you feel and how your stomach twist and turns and I can not recommend it too no one!

When SK bought BU in the beginning of the year 2000, I was one of the 296 pilots from airline who was "KICKED" out and replaced by BU pilots. You guys have the opportunity to apply for positions as pilots within DY and I think you will get ahead of other applicants? We were given a sloppy handshake and a silently "good luck."

I had a new job as FO before I left SAS, because I saw what`s coming. You guys must have seen this for a while after reading the above mentioned topics.....?

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck!

Dissident

Still: has any .no-crew been offered CPH-base yet? I have a feeling it might take some time. Will they still make it "contract-base" so they can withdraw quickly if needed?

BestGlide

After what I have heard: Yes, approx 30 pilots (mainly people living closer to CPH i guess) from .no have applied for CPH-base. But DY can still withdraw from CPH quickly. The only thing they need to do is to end all contract pilots and move people employed at .no back to OSL.

Lima_Foxtrot

Sure, we were dealt a bad hand of cards. But the facts remain... The pilots who are flying on the MD-80 fleet and are below the "hard line" will not get a Boeing 737-rating, unless they pay for it (150.000 SEK net.). So if you want to have the opportunity to remain in DY, you have to pay your way.

But when though? They are still working there flying the MD, but at the same time, vacancies arise in CPH. Do they stop flying the MD and take the B737-rating, or do they wait until they are laid-off? And who says that there still will be vacancies when the rating is done and paid for?

The problem for some 35 people is that since they don´t have the B737, they cannot apply for the CPH alternative. There is no option to apply before they have the B737 in your papers. And most of the same people will be hired as MD-drivers until October. When they are layed off - the CPH-base will be up and running since way back.

I think these issues are the hardest ones to bear.

Dissident

OK. But for how long will the .se-crews be flying out of CPH? As long as no .no-crews have actually been offered CPH .se will fly the routes out of CPH. I don't know how long in advance crwes need to be informed about change of base, but I'm guessing at least one months notice. Anyone from DY care to enlighten?

Dovregubben

Contractors hired for 2009 summerseason are NOT ment for CPH base. They will be offered a base, but will be moved around to all bases with temporarily pilot shortage during vacation. The contract includes housing on base/off base.

Notice for base change in DY is 6 month if commanded by the company. For pilots who bid CPH base, the notice is "asap".

Dissident

ASAP but since .no doesn't have any crew based there yet, I guess the term asap is fairly vague. The DY-operation in CPH is so far over-nights, the rest is .se. A friend of mine who is working for Norwegian sent in a request as soon as DY announced the CPH-base and he still has not heard a whisper about base-change.

Just heard today that we, netJets, will fire a few guys this spring. No number yet... f&%k!
Bad times!

punk3029

Transavia just announced that they will continue to operate with 3 737's out of CPH also during the summer with Local crew (new hire) The plan is to set up an operation as earlier in Orly. Own crew,office etc. So permanent stay

Hanguren

Cloud surfer:

Just so I get it right; if Spanair furloughs pilots then Hanguren would expect SAS to place them into mainline on their existing seniority number? Were you on the barrackades when WF furloughed 6 pilots a few years back asking SAS to give them a 737 rating and oslo base with all seniority intact?

If Virgin Blue or Virgin America lays off pilots, are Virgin Atlantic expected to pick up the furloughs, given them an a340 or 744 rating, and merge them into the LHR lists?

Can the same be said for all Lufthansa subsidiaries? At one point Helikopterservice (CHC Canada) owned Lufttransport.... I suppose any redundancies there should be picked up by the parent?

Or am I missing something here?


oh..and....


Quote:
There were absolutely no problems regarding salary, bases or positions - I know - I were on the other side. The pilots were already integrated and employed by SAS Braathens, which would pay the salary difference.
That was the problem. SC FOs making more than WF FCs flying the same routes on the same aircraft in the same cockpit? Who's budget pays the "salary difference" doesn't matter when it all comes form the same bottom line anyway....
____________________________________________________________ ___
Cloud surfer!

This is so far away that I already now do not understand why I bother to answer you, but anyway:

- I have never heard about those 6 WF pilots, but I do know that SAS have fired +/- 300 pilots, and WF +/- 000 pilots during the past few years.

- I have never ever heard about an SC copilot earning more than a WF captain, simply because they are NOT! This is a plain lie from your side!

- I have never claimed that Spanair pilots should have full seniority in SAS, and neither that .se pilots should have full seniority in n#%¤"!.no!

I just say that YOUR threatment of the .se pilots with new application and sek 150.000 second bonding (!!!) to stay in the company etc etc is a way to treat employees that after my opinion should not be legal anywhere in the world, and not be expected in the western sivilisation!

AND: I am still not very proud being a norwegian pilot after this behaviour by your company: NORWEGIAN.NO!

This is a deal so unheard of that it will mark our norwegian pilot community throughout Europe for years to come! Hopefully they will understand that not all of us are like you and your always smiling president Bjørn Kjos!

If you want to continue argueing for your bosses money, please do it without me - the .se pilots do this job much better than me! And they are right - not you!

Best of luck to you norwegian.se pilots - hope to see you on line in a very near future!

This conclude this discussion from my side!

H