SAS , down the drain?
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Dear G-B
Please accept my apology if I have upset you
Scabs are certainly scabs regardless of union.
My interpretation is of no importance in this matter, but I believe IFALPA has a quite concise definition. You can check with them (provided you are a member, of course).
Maris
Please accept my apology if I have upset you
Scabs are certainly scabs regardless of union.
My interpretation is of no importance in this matter, but I believe IFALPA has a quite concise definition. You can check with them (provided you are a member, of course).
Maris
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MO, I can see of your ignorance that you have many years with SAS and close to none experience from working for and together with other airlines. Yours and many of your colleagues attitude is the reason why the pilots with SAS is divided. You need to come to an agreement with all pilots within the SAS Group before you go to actions like we just have witnessed. Without a common base, the management will split and divide. As long a SK-pilots put themselves as superior to everybody else, there will never be solidarity among the pilots (ref. Linjeflyg, SASCommuter, and BU). SAGPA could be this common base, but it needs a lot of work and admittance from all parts.... Yes, the senioritylist is one key-word! Mergers happens every year, but pilots with SAS have messed up theirs every time, and that is one reason this company is history as we know it in a few years.
And MO, if someone works for sick colleagues and their union leader states there is no demonstration going on, he is not a scab!!! Please check with IFALPA....
rgds W.
And MO, if someone works for sick colleagues and their union leader states there is no demonstration going on, he is not a scab!!! Please check with IFALPA....
rgds W.
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Thanks Wiskey, I trust you when you refer to IFALPA. As I wrote: my interpretation is of no importance in this matter!
I happen to agree with you that most SAS pilots are a bit out of touch with the rest of the aviation world. I have had my experiences abroad, and believe that those years have been quite beneficial for me.
That does not change the fact that I have no tolerance for the managements present attempt to bust our union. The fact that this is not conceeded upon by ex BU, is to me a mystery; even Norwegian's union supports the SAS pilots.
What I am so incredibaly fed up of hearing, is this mantra of that SAS pilots regard themselves as superior. That seems to be the general perception, and this is certainly based purely on ignorance and envy.
On your statement about seniority lists: With exception of the ex-commuter pilots who went to court, there are no disagreements on the seniority list issue within SAS. All this issues have been settled in agreements where all sides have signed. I would like to add that this is according to my knowledge. Please enlighten me if I am misinformed!
Maris
I happen to agree with you that most SAS pilots are a bit out of touch with the rest of the aviation world. I have had my experiences abroad, and believe that those years have been quite beneficial for me.
That does not change the fact that I have no tolerance for the managements present attempt to bust our union. The fact that this is not conceeded upon by ex BU, is to me a mystery; even Norwegian's union supports the SAS pilots.
What I am so incredibaly fed up of hearing, is this mantra of that SAS pilots regard themselves as superior. That seems to be the general perception, and this is certainly based purely on ignorance and envy.
On your statement about seniority lists: With exception of the ex-commuter pilots who went to court, there are no disagreements on the seniority list issue within SAS. All this issues have been settled in agreements where all sides have signed. I would like to add that this is according to my knowledge. Please enlighten me if I am misinformed!
Maris
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Originally Posted by Rule Distance Zero
According to my best knowledge Blue1 is about to have 3-4 MD90 aircraft and most probably those planes are from SAS fleet. From where the crews come, I do´'t know but I assume that most of the airlines provide own crews 
Maybe they need some training captains etc. at the beginning.
Maybe they need some training captains etc. at the beginning.
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Who writes in these forums anyway
I was asked by a college in SAS to go in and see what was written about the situation in the company these days, and I have a question to most of you posting here. Are you really the opinionated bigots with a fetish for dicussing aviation, or are you members of the aviation comunity, I can read that very few of you are pilots at least not above the PPL level.
Nothing I have read here is informed, and nothing have the slightest relevans for the conflict that goes on in SAS these days.
So a piece of advice to you, try to collect just the bares facts before posting in a professional forum. This was a good forum a few years ago. Now I understand why there are no substantive discussions anymore.
So to all you with opinions based on feelings and diareha of the keyboard... Have a nice life
Nothing I have read here is informed, and nothing have the slightest relevans for the conflict that goes on in SAS these days.
So a piece of advice to you, try to collect just the bares facts before posting in a professional forum. This was a good forum a few years ago. Now I understand why there are no substantive discussions anymore.
So to all you with opinions based on feelings and diareha of the keyboard... Have a nice life
Last edited by jarlerc; 1st Feb 2006 at 13:10. Reason: Spellin error
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Professional opinion
This was not my professional opinion about SAS. It was my personal opinion about the posts in this forum. I am not, nor will I ever be a professional at expressing my opinions. I leave that to journalists.
I am however a professional pilot, and I have opinions on how the company I work for are beeing managed. I have stated that subjectiv opinion in another tread. And what are you Margarita, a professional manager. perhaps i SAS??
I am however a professional pilot, and I have opinions on how the company I work for are beeing managed. I have stated that subjectiv opinion in another tread. And what are you Margarita, a professional manager. perhaps i SAS??
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My resumee
Do not assume things, I have been flying in America, in Holland and for 3 different companies in Scandinavia, and I feel that the way the majority in SAS is treating LIN, ExBU and Ex SC is the biggest problem that group of pilots face, but discussions of and agreements on seniority in mergers are very difficult in all cases. Because there are perceived winners and loosers.
But I agree, to solve the mess around seniority is the key to solve many problems in SAS
But I agree, to solve the mess around seniority is the key to solve many problems in SAS
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No Jarlerc, I am a professional pilot like you. Been already 35 years.
Just amazed how much damage unions can cause. Longer the unions take to settle for cold laws of economics more suffer it will cause for the members.Times are changed and since succesful arrival of powerful LCC's aviation will never be the same. Travelling public like to go from A to B as cheaply as possible, just like you and me when we are paying from our own pocket. Enjoy the ride....
Just amazed how much damage unions can cause. Longer the unions take to settle for cold laws of economics more suffer it will cause for the members.Times are changed and since succesful arrival of powerful LCC's aviation will never be the same. Travelling public like to go from A to B as cheaply as possible, just like you and me when we are paying from our own pocket. Enjoy the ride....
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Unions
Ok, A proffessional pilot for 35 years, wow thats a long time then. Mybe time to retire and let some of the younger crowd into your seat.
As for unions ruining things then we just agree to disagree I think.
If had a worked for a smart company like South West in the US I could have done without, bit with most of the idiots coming into companies with an Harward MBA and dreams of greatness. I keep my union thank you very much.
It is my considered opinion that no matter what branch of buissness, it is time that the operators took back the power, and put the beancounters where they belong, counting beans. Giving advice. They simply do not have the training to understand operations. They just restructure things, and take up space.
As for unions ruining things then we just agree to disagree I think.
If had a worked for a smart company like South West in the US I could have done without, bit with most of the idiots coming into companies with an Harward MBA and dreams of greatness. I keep my union thank you very much.
It is my considered opinion that no matter what branch of buissness, it is time that the operators took back the power, and put the beancounters where they belong, counting beans. Giving advice. They simply do not have the training to understand operations. They just restructure things, and take up space.
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Jarlerc says "Ok, A proffessional pilot for 35 years, wow thats a long time then. Mybe time to retire and let some of the younger crowd into your seat"
It is comments like that take what little symphaty was left for the SAS pilots away. Perhaps it is time for you to take a good whiff of what you are showeling? Disagree with the man but that was a cheap shot.
Beancounters, Human Resources etc... That I agree with. They have too much power in today's airlines and frankly most do not have a clue what they are doing. Good old days are gone. A chief pilot that has no control on who's being hired or fired is just an other useless pawn, unfortunately it seems to be the norm these days. SOP's are dictated more and more by economical factors.
Still Unions are not adapting to the changing industry fast enough. They remind me of the old Soviet Union, inlfexible and stiff. Unions are not willing to give in to the economic realities nor to the fact that times have changed. They are stubborny holding to "What it used to be like" rather than trying to figure what it could be like in the future.
Wouldn't it be a good idea for the unions of the major European carriers such as SAS to learn something from the mistakes that has plagued the industry in US? Wouldn't it also be a good idea to have a look at a succesfull relationship that SWA has with it's pilots and unions?
The same play is being shown here in Europe that was run in US, only the actors are different.
It is comments like that take what little symphaty was left for the SAS pilots away. Perhaps it is time for you to take a good whiff of what you are showeling? Disagree with the man but that was a cheap shot.
Beancounters, Human Resources etc... That I agree with. They have too much power in today's airlines and frankly most do not have a clue what they are doing. Good old days are gone. A chief pilot that has no control on who's being hired or fired is just an other useless pawn, unfortunately it seems to be the norm these days. SOP's are dictated more and more by economical factors.
Still Unions are not adapting to the changing industry fast enough. They remind me of the old Soviet Union, inlfexible and stiff. Unions are not willing to give in to the economic realities nor to the fact that times have changed. They are stubborny holding to "What it used to be like" rather than trying to figure what it could be like in the future.
Wouldn't it be a good idea for the unions of the major European carriers such as SAS to learn something from the mistakes that has plagued the industry in US? Wouldn't it also be a good idea to have a look at a succesfull relationship that SWA has with it's pilots and unions?
The same play is being shown here in Europe that was run in US, only the actors are different.
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I am smelling
It was a joke, 35 years a long time.. Irony if you will. And yes it is a good idea to learn from South West, or from Continentals CEO. I am sure there are others to learn alot from.
But good leaders are few and far between, and the Gordaon Gekkos of this world is alive and well. Pilots as a rule, and by the way senioritylists work are very attached to their airline. They do not strike at the drop of a hat, union or no union. But in modern management theory we are nothing but production workers, and they cannot at least not where I work understand that among the pilots are individuals with the resources to be CEO´s. I know several myself, and it is very demanding to be leaders of such a group. You will not get respect just because you are the boss, you have to lead you have to get respect. And most managers I have run up against in my carriere have failed miserably.
But good leaders are few and far between, and the Gordaon Gekkos of this world is alive and well. Pilots as a rule, and by the way senioritylists work are very attached to their airline. They do not strike at the drop of a hat, union or no union. But in modern management theory we are nothing but production workers, and they cannot at least not where I work understand that among the pilots are individuals with the resources to be CEO´s. I know several myself, and it is very demanding to be leaders of such a group. You will not get respect just because you are the boss, you have to lead you have to get respect. And most managers I have run up against in my carriere have failed miserably.
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Og pladen kører i samme rille, samme rille..................
I would be nice if people would actually aquaint themselves with the facts before posting. It's a lot to ask for I know, but at least give it a try.
Instead it's the same old knee-jerk anti-union mantra repeated over and over again.
"The world has changed", well duh!. Can we have some more meaningless phrases, please.
Instead it's the same old knee-jerk anti-union mantra repeated over and over again.
"The world has changed", well duh!. Can we have some more meaningless phrases, please.
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Atlanta-D.
Where is it You see that the pilot union at SAS has not understod that the senario has changed?
Is it the major paycut we have taken?
Is it the major increase in productivity?
Is it the changes in our CLA so transfer to LH is on the crew members own time?
Is it all the changes we have proposed with regard to transfers, upgrades etc. beeing tied in with Your base, that management keep saying no to because they want us employed by said base before making the changes?
ETC.?
Or is it our unvillingness to be butt****** by management over an issue that is purely politically motivated and has nothing to do with running the company?
Regards
Heavydane
Where is it You see that the pilot union at SAS has not understod that the senario has changed?
Is it the major paycut we have taken?
Is it the major increase in productivity?
Is it the changes in our CLA so transfer to LH is on the crew members own time?
Is it all the changes we have proposed with regard to transfers, upgrades etc. beeing tied in with Your base, that management keep saying no to because they want us employed by said base before making the changes?
ETC.?
Or is it our unvillingness to be butt****** by management over an issue that is purely politically motivated and has nothing to do with running the company?
Regards
Heavydane
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my 2 cents....
Atlanta driver - you certainly couldn't have put one point in your post better, having the Pilot's and Management 'on-side' is one of the core drivers of any succesful framework - what the unions and management alike seem to forget is the foundations of Industrial Relations doctrine; ie. we are all ACTORS in the I.R. SYSTEM! and therefore continually forging in the manner that the Scandinavian Pilots unions and SAS management have, will in the long run cause more damage to both sides than good.. Partial strategic alignment is possible and we are thereby today gifted with the development of human resource management, a tool which is heavily misunderstood, underutilised and with which implementing a constant adaption and proactive perception by unions will allow them to achieve well beyond present objectives.
I can't honestly blame the Danes for doing what they did and I applaud them for having the courage to do so - however, in future, it may pay to remember entry level tactics ie. that any form of industrial dispute requires rallying of support outside of the immediate environment and by that I mean - get public and other industry bodies aligned with your objective!
jarlerc - last I checked, being in possession of an MBA certainly didn't give me the ability to 'count beans, take up space and restructure things' nor did being in posession of a CPL give me the ability to become an overpaid, whining know-it all - be careful exactly to which fire you add the fuel!
to all flight crew - let's tone down the bean counter rhetoric and actually try and step in and get some action, if we stop throwing stones in our own way, we can learn exactly how these guys perceive the operating environment and manipulate this to get what we want!
Nor-Pilot
I can't honestly blame the Danes for doing what they did and I applaud them for having the courage to do so - however, in future, it may pay to remember entry level tactics ie. that any form of industrial dispute requires rallying of support outside of the immediate environment and by that I mean - get public and other industry bodies aligned with your objective!
jarlerc - last I checked, being in possession of an MBA certainly didn't give me the ability to 'count beans, take up space and restructure things' nor did being in posession of a CPL give me the ability to become an overpaid, whining know-it all - be careful exactly to which fire you add the fuel!
to all flight crew - let's tone down the bean counter rhetoric and actually try and step in and get some action, if we stop throwing stones in our own way, we can learn exactly how these guys perceive the operating environment and manipulate this to get what we want!
Nor-Pilot
Transparency International
Lindegaard appears to be negotiating in public:
(Stand By 10.02.06)
Pilotopgør på vej i SAS
Ledelsen i SAS styrer hårdt mod et opgør med selskabets piloter, der i værste tilfælde kan medføre nye strejker.
Jørgen Lindegaard, koncernchef i SAS, holder ufravigeligt fast i, at piloterne skal ansættes i de nationale selskaber, hvor de i dag er ansat i det skandinaviske SAS-konsortie.
Jørgen Lindegaard meddelte torsdag, at piloternes krav medvirker til store tab i SAS Danmark, SAS Sverige og SAS International, som alle kom ud af 2005 med et stort minus
(Børsen 10.2. 2006)
Ledelsen i SAS styrer hårdt mod et opgør med selskabets piloter, der i værste tilfælde kan medføre nye strejker.
Jørgen Lindegaard, koncernchef i SAS, holder ufravigeligt fast i, at piloterne skal ansættes i de nationale selskaber, hvor de i dag er ansat i det skandinaviske SAS-konsortie.
Jørgen Lindegaard meddelte torsdag, at piloternes krav medvirker til store tab i SAS Danmark, SAS Sverige og SAS International, som alle kom ud af 2005 med et stort minus
(Børsen 10.2. 2006)
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my 2 cents again
Originally Posted by dusk2dawn
Lindegaard appears to be negotiating in public:
(Stand By 10.02.06)
(Stand By 10.02.06)
It is precisely these spin-off's which I was trying to adress in my previous post; the Pilot unions need to circumvent tactics like this by swinging public opinion and using it as leverage to forge a path with management. This is effectively achieved by the union's aggresively working on an efficient PR strategy as a prelude to staging next actions... We need to remember and manipulate the horizontal and vertical elements of this process! Mention it to your fellow crew member and see what they have to say!...
on another note - lets hope to be carrying back some shiny gold souvenirs from excursions to Northern Italy in the next 2 weeks
