H.Finn

All Finnish topics seem to heve been closed. So what is the official/accepted language to be used on this forum? English? Norwegian? Danish? Perhaps Sami? Just curious...

Kopeloi

Must be only Danish as it seems to be major scandinavian language.
Nikolai

JJflyer

Whats acceptable... Your guess is as good as mine, but it's not Finnish. Makes me
I will not be drawn in to a useless argument or language war, there just wont be posts from me on the Nordic forum in Finnish or any other language after this one. A one man boycott.

Like Eric Cartman says "Sc.rew you guys I am going home"

JJ

cockpitforum

Fact is that we have 5 languages in the geographical area that this forum is ment to cover. That they have not divided it up into 5 different sections, well, there must be a reason for it. Having said that; what`s the problem having threads in 5 different languiages here. If you don`t read Finnish, just go somewhere else.

MD900 Explorer

With regards to the language of choice, i think since it is the Nordic Forum that you should be able to post in your language. With the exception of Finnish, i guess 95% of Nordic people can understand the others language. i.e Norsk, Svensk, Dansk are all understandable by each other. The finns i believe speak Svensk also, but i think the problem will be those who dont understand Finnish.

That is the reason for this forum eh?, to try and keep a Scandinavian Image and be able to discuss themes and problems within aviation in the Nordic region in your own scandic language.

I know English is the language of choice when talking in aviation, but there is no reason, why we shouldnt be able to speak our own language. If there is a comprehension problem, i think an explanation should be given if a person does not understand out of curtousy?

Just my ten cents

MD

PPRuNe Towers

Sorry guys - no Finn speaking mod = no Finnish.

No excuses either. We have our names and addresses indelibly linked to this site. Yours aren't.

Therefore either we or one of our mods can easily read what's being published in our names or it doesn't appear. JJ can throw as many toys out of the pram as he likes - we haven't compromised his identity in the many years he's spent on the site.

In turn you aren't compromising our homes and livelihoods through legal action just because we can't read your posts.

This is an extremely simple concept and you have an equally simple choice.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

KimboKK

What kind of a nordic forum is this if nordic languages are forbidden?!?

This only reduces the amount of messages sent here!!

Moderator: do you have something against the nordic countries?

Maybe there should be a forum for Finns only..?

Kopeloi

The fact remains that Finnish aviation seems to be only one in the north that is moving on. Rest of nordic countries seem to be busy to close down SAS and its seniority list.
I agree, that it is not very nice decision to rule out one of the countries due the language skills of the moderator. Why not to appoint the moderator who will be able to understand Finnish?
Nikolai

PPRuNe Towers

You can let off steam as much as you like folks - without a mod fluent in Finnish you aren't using the language. It really is that simple.

It's the same for every other language in the world. No fluent mod - no use of that language. This also applies to non Roman alphabets - thus no cyrillic, no arabic, no thai, no chinese, japanese, korean - shall I go on? Our readers using those alphabets dwarf the number of Finns registered to the site by a thousand times.

If you want to consider it some slight against Nordic countries why not take a moment to count up the number of other languages we don't allow. You might also take a moment to look at the Caribbean and South American forum where Spanish is also verbotten.

If you want to take this as an insult to Finns or the Nordic countries anything I write won't change your minds. Meanwhile we have run PPRuNe for 8 years and not demanded a cent from you in all that time for our services. If that doesn't seem an absolute bargain to you - don't worry - using this site is not compulsary.

Regards again,
Rob Lloyd

Kopeloi

Would it be very difficult to find a finnish speaking mod who could keep an eye for those postings?
Nikolai

Hårek den Hardbalne

This quote underlines a certain attitude that is not very welcome, nor appreciated among most people from the Nordic countries.

I understand well that there are languages that cannot be allowed because you do not have a moderator with command of that language. But you my dear Deputy Chief PPRuNE Pilot are grinded the corn over and over again. If I may ask, like another member did: Do you have anything against people from the Nordic countries? Or is it just your attitude in general?

My advice to you is: Talk to people in a nice and polite manner and they will return nice and polite

PPRuNe Towers

Spendid CRM tips Harek except this has all happened before regarding Finnish language posts. Twice to be precise - most recently on the 8th of May this year.

I notice the 'cockpit forum' you favour and plugged to high heaven last year is:

a: essentially all English despite being by Scandi's for Scandi's and

b:asking for money from your guys for the last 6 months

c: So desperately quiet you registered a new ID to plug it yet again further up this thread.

Double standards Harek old chum?

Is this free as in your readers won't spend a cent? That seems to be the case - I see poor Knold's call to arms to rebel against the dark side that is PPRuNe hasn't had a reply for over a month.

My English language skills can't quite come to terms with your free spirit and speech, be blunt and say it straight versus ask us nicely, use a velvet tongue and the troops will follow. Which is it to be?

Could it be that you little rascals are taking the piss out of the perfidious Brits by insisting on local language as being essential for communication and at no cost but then write in English on your genuinely local forums?

Is it possible that folks can't bother their arses to support your own local sites. I hear tumbleweed rolling through those forums.

Is it beyond the realms of possiblity that you guys actually just like a good drink and an even better argument?

Now, would this genteel Nordic character also have anything in common with the local Finn forum that opened with our encouragement and soon shut down due to the anst, fear, loathing and bitching it engendered? We've still got the e-mails from the poor sod that set it up and tried to keep it civilised.

And would it have anything to do with the err, problems distant members of the Hardbaine family have had with us in the past going back to August 2002 when Flaps was shoved in here kicking and screaming as a mod? I think we should be told.



If this is such an objectionable action against the Finns it certainly won't be safe for me to set foot in Germany - there's millions of the buggers, they're much closer to us and they must be really pissed off after being ignored for the past 8 years

Other than that - splendid discussion.

Regards
rob

JJflyer

The "One man boycott" did not last very long now did it... I do understand the management need to know the content of this forum.

After reading the posts on this thread thoroughly there where a few points I wanted comment.

PPRuNe Towers says:

"You can let off steam as much as you like folks - without a mod fluent in Finnish you aren't using the language. It really is that simple."

Wouldn't it just have been easier to ask one of the Finnish speakers to join as a moderator to make sure that the content is "acceptable" rather than just close all the recent threads without explanation, causing this needless commotion?

"Now, would this genteel Nordic character also have anything in common with the local Finn forum that opened with our encouragement and soon shut down due to the anst, fear, loathing and bitching it engendered? We've still got the e-mails from the poor sod that set it up and tried to keep it civilised"

A Finn forum??? Where and when was that. I never heard of that? I thought it was Norvegian or Danish forum?

MD900 Explorer says:

"With regards to the language of choice, i think since it is the Nordic Forum that you should be able to post in your language. With the exception of Finnish, i guess 95% of Nordic people can understand the others language. i.e Norsk, Svensk, Dansk are all understandable by each other. The finns i believe speak Svensk also, but i think the problem will be those who dont understand Finnish"

Yes Sir. I do understand, you want Scandinavian languages only (Swedish, Norvegian and Danish on the Nordic forum).
How about Icelandic. Very different from other Scandinavian languages... And different enough for Icelandics and other Nordics to speak English between each others... Is that acceptable?

Nikolai's 10 cents:

"Would it be very difficult to find a finnish speaking mod who could keep an eye for those postings?"

One would think that there are Finns that arwe willing to go ahead and take part in the moderating type course.

Anyways, some questions and some comments.

JJ

Hotel Charlie

What´s the big deal?
What´s up with the paranoia HdH?
The moderator would like us to use english so that he can do his job moderating! This makes him anti scandinavian??? I´m actually a little ashamed beeing a scandinavian when accusations like that are put furth in my name! If people are worried about beeing moked because of poor spelling I haven´t seen any of that and my spelling is definitely not perfect.
So what do Y´all say? Let´s get on with it, in english

Hårek den Hardbalne

HC,

There is no paranoia involved, as far as I can see. This thread is about using, or not using the Finnish language. I see that as a fair question on a Nordic forum. Don`t you?

Accusations? If you refer to my previous post and the me using the word attitude, that is not an accusation, that is an observation expressed in writing on a discussion forum. No reason to be ashamed.

PPRuNe Towers,

Wandering off there slightly in your argumentation, are we. This thread is about use of the Finnish language on the Nordic forum. I understand that you need a moderator in command of Finnish in order to allow that language to be used. But I do not understand what that has to do with another website`s forum.

And yes, people from the Nordic countries are known for their straight-to-the-point way of talking/being/discussing. I would think it comes with the mothermilk as well as your (as in the British) way of being comes with your mothermilk. Nothing strange about that. Around where I come from we call that a colourful environment Attitude towards the members of this forum does not come from the said milk

MD900 Explorer

JJ

I guess due to the constraints of the language issue, that it will have to be acceptable. There are just going to be isolated occasions where an Icelandic member or finnish member will want to contribute in his/her own language, but wont be able to because of a lack of a fluent speaking moderator or the lack of certain similar language speaking members.

PpruNe Towers

Getting a little paranoid here arn't we? If you want to go down that road, then we would be entitled to parre that rebuke with the statment that most english people cant be bothered to learn another language, because everybody in the world should speak english and why should you bother eh

I accept your thoughts on the fact that there is no fluent speaking moderator, so therefore that language cannot be used, So why can't we / you find a Finn who is willing to be a moderator and then the Finns can carry on using their language?

I think the reason that we end up using English, is that it is :-

1. The language of Aviators
2. Easier to communicate sometimes in a common ground, and since we all know how to speak and write english, it ends up being like that

So why are we being critisised for using english, when we are forced to by circumstance seems like that argument is a little thin.

I think we all need to adapt and overcome, and just accept that sometimes rules is rules

MD

PPRuNe Towers

Excellent stuff folks. I'm genuinely learning.

Let's see how I'm doing so far on Scandinavian cultural anthropology.

1: It is the god given birthright of any Scandinavian to converse amongst themselves in a blunt, straight to the point way.

2: Conversely any foreigner addressing them collectively should come in on bended knee, offering group hugs, warm and fuzzy feelings and try slowly and ever so gently to persuade them around to our requirements.

3: On locally based, genuinely Scandinavian websites the language used to maximise communications and clarity of thought and information is exquisitely written English.

4: However, on foreign based, worldwide sites the must be a fracas twice a year with DEMANDS we cater for a language with less that 30 posters out of 80,000 registered here on PPRuNe. This is essential as there is no other way they can adequately address their needs and cultural identity. Any move to limit languages within posts will be taken as both an insult to one language group and threat to posters thoughout the Scandic countries.

5: Any Scandinavian site run locally reserves the right to charge money for aviation people to access forums within it. It also unreservedly requires unlimited access to other sites to repeatedly promote itself.

6:Sites run by foreigners will run free of charge to all users. Will not have a single advert for the first three years of its life. Will be paid for though the after tax incomes of two UK based pilots and 8 years on still doesn't demand a cent from you. Such sites will not ever promote itself on other sites, advertise or even produce a single press release throughout the same 8 years and is only allowed to gain readers and contributors through word of mouth.

Well, I think I've learned a lot - I know you'll step in if I've got any of my logic confused and I look forward to further insights into the Scandinavian soul.

It has sincerely been educational and the psychology is fascinating especially as a minority language speaker myself (Welsh) and as a specialist teacher of English as a foreign or second language for 13 years before I changed careers and jumped into a Boeing.

My suspicion is that at home you quietly take pride in conversing with and writing English with a fluency and elegance that makes many of our British, Australian and American contributors look like morons.

However, here on PPRuNe, out of country so to speak, a home based pride in language and culture comes to the fore, usually entirely unconsciously. Thus the constant pressure over many years for foreign language forums. It's entirely natural and an easily observed part of human behaviour all over the world.

So here's where I'd like you to help me. Reverse role play is the game.

You run a wildly successful international website with between 35.000 and 42,000 visitors per day and 80,000 registered users.

Over a period of years you unknowingly attract between 10 and 15 Welsh speakers to your forums. They are entertaining but unusually forthright and have many times stepped over the mark. This Towerdogging or Harekking as we call it causes you problems but their contribution to the site generally makes up for that. And anyway, this is to be accepted in their culture - they are Welsh. A proud warrior race for a thousand years before the Romans came. Their language, music and poetry is is world renowned but the difficulties of that language and the tiny size of the population make it incomprehensible to the world.

Your house is mortgaged to the hilt. You have a family to support. Your name and address is on all the registrations and paperwork for the site and you are working a full time aviation job to pay for all these things. The posters on your forum use anonymous usernames and mainly register with equally anonymous hotmail and yahoo addresses.

One day, their natural cultural pride comes to the fore and you find a rapidly growing thread looking like this:

AltaVista? Babelfish? But when you've tried it in the past translating into your mother tongue you laughed yourself silly and know with certainty you can't trust the computer to translate true meaning or nuance accurately.

Discuss?

Regards to all
Rob

Techman

Now you are just trying to trick us. We all know that there is no such language as Welsh. Weird noises does not a language make.

MD900 Explorer

PPRuNe Towers

Now lookie here boyo. You seem to be a very angry sarcastic person with obvious money issues, and there are ways you can alleviate the pain on your temporal lobe.

1. Since you seem to be a fluent Welsh speaker, and a person high up in the workings of PPRuNe, you could start the Welsh forum, as you are qualified to speak it and i am sure Moderator status, albeit a lower rank than you allready are, is easily graspable. So then you can cling on to that minority group and keep a sense of cultural identity.

2. The money thing shouldnt be a problem for a Boeing Captain, or are you just a first officer with career issues, and a nagging wife.....hmmmmm we'll leave it there for fear of a personal rebuke

3. You can try to help us achieve our goal of being able to speak Finnish on this forum, by helping us get a moderator who can speak the language fluently, and thus relieve the irritation you seem to think is Scandinavia.

4. Since you come from a minority country and have this great chip on your shoulder, you would be able to understand the needs of a cultural identity, and be able to be empathetic to the needs of others, especialy with the language teaching skills you have. Keeping a cultural identity, is important to many. We here in Scandinavia accept the Finnish people as part of that, it seems you are just angry deep down, because everyone in the UK takes the piss out of Welsh people and havn't managed to get the harmony you personally would love to have; being made to feel equal.

As for your Scandinavian Anthropological observations, they seem to be way off the mark for what Scandinavians are and what they stand for. You just seem to have made some begrudging observations on PPRuNe Posting behaviour, and been flippant about it.

So how about helping us reach our goal and stop your winging.

MD

PPRuNe Towers

Excellent riposte MD - care to address my point three though. The simplest one of them and, just so I'm being straight with you all, the clincher in my book.

By all means reverse, satirise or ignore everything else I wrote but address the substantive issue.

When you guys write on Scandinavian based forums English is the language of choice.

You might also consider the somewhat, err testy and argumentative relationship many of you have had over the years on PPRuNe regarding Finnish versus the other Scandic languages. I would of course be miles off track with an observation that while it's alright to take a poke at each others' language you will stand shoulder to shoulder if an outsider raises the subject.

Regards again,
Rob