And only later it was noticed that the firemen were on more money than most of the service personnel who were drafted in over Christmas to replace them....

No suprises there - shaft the forces and then kick em in the balls.

Gents - the film starship troopers is loosely based on the book.
The book has a main theme that only those who have served to the "state" or "society" or "body politic" get to vote......

I say we have a coup d'etat, re-instate a titular monarchy under liz to ensure checks and balances - and then make it that all politicians and everyone who votes has to have served.......

not just mil, but nhs, teaching, and all society serving careers.
No uni, mp's assistant, pr, MP etc etc

You have to EARN the right to vote.

When in power you can be booted out and sent to prison for corruption.
Integrity is the first criteria

ShyTorque,

We knew it at the time.

There was a group of them in the main shopping street where we were sent. They had the temerity to shake their collection bucket at us and begged donations for the poorly paid, striking firemen.
Have you ever seen half a dozen firemen surrounded by eight or nine really pissed off airmen telling them which way was up? It was fun! Nevertheless, they got the message.

On the other hand, the townspeople were wonderful and couldn't do enough for us. Free cinema, free swimming baths and public baths. Don't think we ever bought a drink on a night out.

I digress from the thread, going now.

Doc C

Piece on Newsnight now...about Olympic security.

Or lack off..

Gum shield in, safety specs on...

Have this security team absolutely porked it? Yes.
Is this a government organised shambles? Yes.
Is the contract ridiculously lucrative? Yes.
Should it have been awarded as is? No absolutely not.

New voice this net.

Should armed forces personel be paid extra for aiding the civil power? No, absolutely not. It's fundemental military task.

What's the rationale here, that we're prepared to go to sea for months on end in a missile boat, or bayonet charge Terry in Helmand, or fly through cu-nim so dense you can't see the wing....but we're demanding extra to help out in peacetime?

Errr, no. Perks of the trade. Galling perhaps and the girls and boys shouldn't be out of pocket but be it firemen strikes or plain old crap management of a security contract - we're here to serve, and if that means helping out with civil order then that's all in our TORs.

I don't think extra money or living in a tent are the issues, the infantry in Helmund would be happy to get their heads down there. I have no issue either with the military stepping in when needs must, such as responding to strikes or terrorist action. The issue I have is that this is representative of government not working yet again (I heard the phrase 'confusing ambition with ability' yesterday). All the evidence points to the award and monitoring of this contract being bodged and that is inexcusable.

G4S is a profit making company, of course it has one eye on costs. The government though, has a responsibility to the public and to its servants and this is the latest example of the military being called in to paper over cracks created by g'ment incompetence and negligence. I cringe when I hear politicians making capital from their own shortcomings by alligning themselves to 'our military'. Heads up for cringeworthy grip and grins of unhealthy looking elected clowns pumping military flesh. :yuk:

orca,

I have to take issue with your Sir. Your comment: Should armed forces personel be paid extra for aiding the civil power? No, absolutely not. It's fundemental military task is frankly nonesence.

This is NOT a fundamental Military task at all. If it was or ever had been, then the military would have been involved from day one on this matter, and it wasn't. This was a decision taken by those in power NOT to use the military for such duties and to thus award the contract to a civilian company who have now failed the country miserably.

As to the question of financial reward for being 'called up' during these circumstances, you are of course entitled to your opinion however, there will be many servicemen and women who will have had holidays, leave and other plans cancelled because of this governments incompetance and negligence IMHO. Those who have just returned from the sand pit, expecting some quality time with family etc will now suddenly find themselves dumped in the centre of London, and all their plans screwed up. Firemen going on strike is one thing, bailing out a civilian company is an entirely different siuation I'm afraid (not that I agree with the firemen either!)

So, I fail to see why those who are being shafted in order to prop-up the games, should not get some form of financial reward. Why not? Is not the issue of free tickets a reward?

But what about those who don't want a free ticket for the games? What about those, whose wives are so pi$$ed off at all this, not getting a few hundred quid to take them away for a weekend or something to help them get over all the crap of this? Whatever happened to the service family we used to have? I am not too proud to say that in the main, my wife went through far more sh1t than I ever did by being in the military. It was her who was left behind at no notice to explain things to the kids. It was her left behind to cope with it all.

I really do think that we should be doing something here to say to people, 'listen, we are bloody sorry for screwing things up, but here is some money, get yourselves away for a break', or whatever.

Instead, I have little doubt that those who have had to cancel their holidays and other plans will now have all sorts of hardship and grief trying to recover their costs back, knowing the beaurocracy of it all.

And finally it was interesting watching the former CDS telling us all how the boys and girls will just get on with it last night on Newsnight. Well that may well be true Sir, but it is somewhat spineless of you to simply brush it off in the way you did. Typical of VSOs these days I'm afraid.

Good luck to all of you who's lives have been affected by this fiasco. You have my sympathy, and above all my respect. I have no doubt you will all just get on and do it, and do it well. That still doesn't make it bloody right though!!

Winco

Orca wrote: Or, to be brief, but less eloquent...... if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined.

When things are going well for service people they actually go very well. It should be no surprise therefore that when the !!!! arrives, it is particularly bad. I'm not saying that it's right, but that's just the way it is.

Winco,

I did wonder if the fact he was in a tux, the lateness of the hour and his relaxed attitude had something to do with how his message came out.

The police drafted in are complaining they ONLY get £60 per day extra and that the bars in the holiday camps they are staying at wont stay open late!!!!

Thats because the police have a Federation. Talking of Dannatt on Newsnight last night seemingly brushing over the issue, he was the first CGS to attempt to seriously counter the idea of a military Federation. I have never been 'for' the idea, but that has always been based on the implicit understanding that the faith you place in those who look after your interests, is well founded. Dannatt of course, was Cameron's unofficial military adviser in the run up to the election.

"The police drafted in are complaining they ONLY get £60 per day extra and that the bars in the holiday camps they are staying at wont stay open late!!!!"

Did you read that in that Daily mail? :ugh:

The Federation are useless and the Police are Cameron's no1 target at the moment. G4S are in line to take over much of frontline Policing as Cameron's aim is to halve Police numbers. My pension has been nicked and my contribution rate is going up to 14% regardless. We have all been banned from having leave as well.

If you can come up with the location of these holiday camps, please let me know where they are.

... nah! nothing as good as that!

They will offload the hundreds of thousands of unsold footie tickets, and probably spin it to say kick-ball is the game of choice of the PBI (cynical? Moi?)

Think of the joys: on August 1st you could watch two matches at the same stadium (Ricoh in Coventry)....

....... Senegal vs UAE ...... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

AND

........ Japan vs Honduras ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

somehow can't imagine either fixture filling the 32 500 capacity stadium....

Depressing to see that nothing changes.
I was in Thumrait when the Exercise I was on changed into the Afghan conflict. The only thing I noticed was that my tent became more crowded and my £10 ish a day LOA was taken away. Apparently LOA does not apply to Operations.
It would be nice, just for once, to see the boys and girls treated at least as well as the Police Officers of equivalent rank. After all, they are doing a policing duty.
There are thousands of Civil Service and other "Fat Cats" ripping off the Olympic budget. A few million extra is neither here nor there.
Let the security Company foot the bill.

BBC researchers well up to speed! A rear crew member of one of the helicopters was interviewed and identified as "Lieutenant Corporal X - RAF Regiment" I have been away from the RAF for years but this is a new one on me.

He was prob lance corporal x RAF Regt and they are being deployed in the back of puma's so maybe not as inacurate as you think.

Along with the reporter referring to "Typhoons and Puma helicopters" as (RN) AEW Sea Kings hovered in the background - at that stage not a Puma in sight

Jayant.
Lance Corporal isn't a rank in the RAF Regiment.

The Lieutenant Corporal even had a "Follow Me" sign ready to hook on to the side of his chopper! Perhaps Airlines should stick "Bugger Off" signs on their Boeings :ugh:

Jayant.
Lance Corporal isn't a rank in the RAF Regiment.

Having watched the flame procession a couple of times on the news I was suprised not to see the runners from the MET wearing pedometers, so they could file their mileage claims... :E

.

Oh yes it is. Has been for a few years now.

Blimey. I must have been out for too long!

Olympic security:
G4S has had its fee for managing civilian security staff for the Games rise from £7.3 million to £60 million.

Its just not worth it financially to volunteer.

Job he is doing and where = Correct
Lieutenant Corporal = Does not exist SFAIK
Too much for the Beeb to get names, jobs , ranks and aircraft types correct at the same time.

Olympic Fiasco

Do you remember the huge problems we had at the time of the foot and mouth epidemic when the military were called in and sorted things out in commendable style. We have an evolving problem once again with the security situation at the Olympics and I feel sure as a civilian that our armed foces will once again step in and do a fantastic job.

Should you have to ? Almost certainly not but at the end of the day the armed forces are more highly regarded than the unionised fire service and the pampered and overpaid police.

:\

To reciprocate perhaps next time we're a bit short on the frontline G4S can send some of their management across to Helmand to make up numbers. The Fire Brigades Union owe us many favours as well.

Winco,

We clearly don't agree, but to flesh out my point. Bailing out a security firm is nothing to do with defence business. Unless, that is, the government was counting (naively, stupidly - whatever you fancy) on the security firm for something it considers very important and which it now cannot deliver.

Now we enter the realms of MACA which is a fundemental role of the armed forces. I assume you don't disagree?

I concur absolutely that it shouldn't have been needed in this case. But actually the MACA guidelines point out that planners shouldn't plan on/ count on military help - we're there as the Alamo/ last resort/ back stop CAP.

What I fail to see (and again we disagree) is why someone pinged for extra duties in London for a fortnight should expect recompense when someone given a crash move to Faslane wouldn't.

And yes I know that stacks of boys and girls are in or about to go to, or have just got back from the sand pit. And I too have had my fair share of 'rather cross wife'. It goes with the turf. Doesn't make it any easier to swallow but it's a rule of the game.

Last point and I really do mean it genuinely is we're all human and we all differ significantly. I respect your opinions, just don't share them on this occasion. Eyes out, fly safely.

Slight tangent, but one of my former colleagues posted a notice on farcebook which read "British servicemen in Afghanistan are threatening to go on strike next week. Firemen and dustmen are being drafted in to fill the gap"

Made I larff

Said on last night's news that G4S admitted they had blown it and were going to lose £50M on the Olympic contract. My hearr bleeds warm p1$$ for them. They'll get it back on plice contracts later, no doubt helped by the incoming Chief Inspector of Plods

orca,

Thank you for your reply and let me say how nice it is to have reasoned response without (as we are all guilty of) resorting to slagging each other off; Thank you.

OK, so we clearly disagree and I would concede that in the main, you are correct in your comments. Yes, we are there as a backstop, Yes to your points on MACA and to all of the others, but where I still disagree strongly is your point about someone getting a short-notice, crash move to Faslane or anywhere else.

They get a short-notice posting because of service reasons, whether we like it or not.Someone has gone sick, someones Wife is sick, there is an urgent op reason, whatever. They don't get a short notice posting to Faslane, because the NAAFI manager has quit his job, and they can't get a replacement. (Do we still have NAAFI?) And I think that is the fundamental point I would wish to make strongly out of all this.

These 3500 boys and girls aren't getting a last minute posting because we are off on another Op Corporate. We are not going off to invade some third world dictatorship. Indeed, they are not even going off to provide essential fire cover for our wonderful civilian fire service. They are going off to prop up a civilian company, who were supposed to provide security for a civilian event at a time when the Armed Forces are hurting more than they have ever hurt before.

I am absolutely furious about it all I have to say.

I am sick to death of the Armed Forces of this Nation being regarded and treated as little more than pond-life by the government, CS's, MP's and all-un-sundry each and every day and yet, as soon as there is a problem, 'Lets bring in the troops'

All I am saying is that whilst they don't have an entitlement or ligitimate claim to a financial reward (and I accept they don't have a legal entitlement) I just think it's time that someone stood up and said, 'hey, if we are going to screw over our Armed Forces for crap like this, let's at least show them we are grateful'. And that NEVER happens.

Wives do put up with a lot and in the main they get on and 'suck it up' However, they will be less willing to accept another separation simply to help out a civilian company that has charged us all (and been paid already!) millions of pounds and delivered nothing.

I seem to remember that when I came back from Corporate, I was given 2 tickets to the FA Cup final that year! As it happens, I gave them away because I couldn't make it! But it was a nice thought. Does the same happen now?? I somehow doubt it.

Maybe G4S should pay to send them and their families away for a fortnight to Centre Parks or somewhere else.

Rant over for another day, just about to launch into the wide blue yonder!!
Be safe

Winco

I couldn't agree more with Winco, I hate the "it's life in a blue suit" brigade and "just get on with it" people have had enoughof this BS, pointless wars and deaths in a country far from home that we don't understand and won't change, unprecedented cuts and spiralling morale mean "just get on with it" doesn't cut the mustard anymore.
People thought they were spending their summer doing x and suddenly they get stiffed to fill in for a poorly organised, unsupervised civvy company.
It's called taking the piss!!!

From the BBC:

Now, G4S stand to lose £50M and there are 11000 servicemen due to be 'inconvenienced' by this ridiculous overblown indulgence of a few sweaty oafs running, jumping, splashing about and throwing things.

50 000 000 / 11 000 = £4545 per head?

If G4S are going to forgo £50m why not spend it on the defence housing estate? Benefit goes in the right direction and not just back into government coffers.

It just keeps getting better...

Olympics: 'I don't know if guards speak English', says G4S chief - Telegraph

There have been complaints earlier in the week about MPs being given complimentary tickets for some of the blue riband events at the games.

Wouldn't it be a pleasant surprise if the MPs donated these tickets to off duty members of the armed forces providing security so that they could actually see some of the games and provide something of a carrot to the armed forces after recent severe applications of the stick.

"Twenty-Twelve"
 

You really couldn't make all of this up unless you were writing a script for a typical British comedy show. It's my guess that the "Twenty-Twelve" TV show must be gleaning all of their material from PPrune!

I hope that there's been an adequate risk assessment and that the DDH has made his "handshake" with the UK Gov... dots the I's and crosses the T's!

TCF