And your point is?

Just as well they were authorised to fly at 50ft then! All perfectly above board and legal.

Yes Puma front end crews still get to the cockpit through the cabin and between the broom cupboards.

No point. I was just having a chat, friendly like. It's not every day that a bloody great helicopter flits across a motorway that low in front of you. That's all.

they usually fly alongside the motorway. Must be easier to read maps that way....

I thought that they had got over that. IIRC is was when a Puma was being guarded by a gunner at Woolwich who got bored and fiiddled with the pilot's door jettison lever. He put it back but the indicator wire went back to its original position. When the young Michael was flying it back the door jettisoned itself. That was in 1972. After that the doors were locked and we had to crawl in the back.
I cannot think of any other Puma/Super Puma/EC225 crews that do that worldwide.

The only dignified way to enter a Puma is through the starboard cargo door... :E

Or if you forgot the keys through the load hatch!!!

Why bother opening a door when you have a man (or maness) to do it for you. A door has been lost since the event mentioned when a 'visitor' fiddled and it was missed on pre-flight walk around. (NI IIRC) Besides which it is windy and wet far more often then nice weather and the cabin is usefull to doff ones kit (LCJ / helmet / armour / weapon ) whilst keeping warm and dry.

A suggestion, for what it is worth; nothing to do with getting in and out of the doors because if a door is inadvertantly jettisoned it doesn't matter if the door is locked or not.
In 1978 a Bristow 330J lost the pilots door through reasons unknown; probably somebody fiddling;or the pilots nav bag interfering with a jettison lever as the nav bag went with the door. To reduce the chances of it happening again the indicator wire was moved to the inside lever so it was part of the cockpit checks and a frangible plastic cover was placed over it. The wire was touchable around the cover and it was designed so that it fell away from the vertical if broken. There has not been a case of a door falling away since and the doors are frequently used by the pilots during offshore operations. On top of that offshore workers are notorious fiddlers.
At that time there was a fair amount of communication on the technical side between the RAF and Bristows, (it took a long time for Bristows to get their engine alignment tool back from Odiham) so this modification, approved by the CAA, would have been known to the RAF. Whether they followed it up I do not know so it may well have been done.
Just a thought, anyway.

Really? Perhaps in your part of the World. Few of us venture that far forward as we prefer to stay in the cabin and get some zeds in en-route. "More kip, less trip."

What the hell was he doing up there, so high?

;)

Will Puma Survive?
 

.................. No!

Whats the latest on P2? Is it still happening? Do we have the first one in the UK yet? The cockpit pics look quite impressive!

It's happening.

Yep, £14 million per airframe for how many years return of service? Has someone in the RAF got compromising photos of MPs and thus blackmailing them in to squandering the budget on P2?

One could easily say exactly the same about either Wildcat variant or Merlin 2, so steady there...

I heard £2m per airframe, not sure about the planned exit date of Pu2, but I heard Eurocopter are content the airframe is a simble box and really isn't subject to fatigue, so potentially, like most MOD aircraft, I expect it will have every last drop of life squeezed from it before they finally retire them.

wg13 & lottery winner et al
 

Let it go, move on, Puma Mk2 lives and is moving forward. You must be FAA? Remind me how much for Wildcat HMA (around twice that). How much for the great (grey) elephant of the Merlin Mk2 to Mk4 CSP upgrade? Spreadsheet Phil, I imagine, knows a good deal when he sees one and he'd probably recognise Merlin CSP isn't one of them. Were he to acknowledge that, he may call a halt to the nonsensical Green Merlin Mk3 marinisation. Sense would prevail, transition to the RN canx and Merlin Mk3 would remain where it currently resides - with RAF SH providing Land Lift to the Army (apologies to CHF). Spreadsheet Phil (or his successor, or the next govt) actually might try (or be enforced) to balance the books. Following on from Harrier, they might cancel (or sell on completion) the carriers, canx Dave B/C and the boats and the landing craft. Just like MPA and the demise of Nimrod MRA4, we wouldn't be in the LitM game anymore....

£339,000,000 ÷ 28 = £14,125,000. (reduced to 24)

Concur with cost/point of Wildcat

WG,
Be careful with your numbers; that quoted figure for P2 probably includes several years worth of support costs - it's unlikely to be just for design, parts and manufacture. P2 will be a superb airframe, and will outperform the Merlin in most areas and give the CH47 a run for its money in others.

I think history won't be kind to the acquisition and running costs v capability arguement for Wildcat, Me 2 and, particularly, Me 4....

OSD 2025? Highly unlikely IMHO (unless AW are going bust again)....

Ok-let's stop it please!
 

So why are we raising this issue?
Is it adding any value to Defence, the RAF or these threads?

Puma will add value to the Army, and of course it should have been saved from HMT's knife as the next conflict will require air mobility, just as the last conflicts have shown us what happens if we do not have enough helicopters.

As to Merlin going to the Fisheads, get over it and just because our Airships and Blimps have been backward in planning the outflow of our Merlin crews to other cockpits we cannot blame the Fisheads as they would ideally have had their FASH, SABR or whatever it was called many years ago. We got our Wessex replacement they got an extension of service to the Sea King.

There have been many recent studies on the cost of Merlin transition and if for one moment Army thought they could save a Regiment or two by keeping us in Merlin and stopping transition (or by making a Joint Force) they would have done it. Don't forget Army pay for us and also CHF.

The cost of Merlin transition has been proven to be not significant if the UK wants an amphibious capability and at the last SDSR the current Prime Minister stated he did want an amphibious capability which has been articulated in recent policy and doctrine documents. As discussed in earlier threads I wouldn't be surprised if there were numerous SDSR 'U turns', but I personally think a national amphibious capability is here to stay, therefore so is CHF and Merlin marinisation. If HMG do decide that a future amphibious capability is not required or is too expensive then with carriers not being operational for 10 years plus what will the RN do?

When will the bitter single Service focused people on this thread understand that the cost of ship optimising Merlin is minuscule compared to the overall mid life upgrade for obsolescence-whichever Service flys Merlin it will need investment from MOD and HMT. I would like to wager that those that espouse that the mighty Chinook can do all amphibious stuff haven't actually served on a busy deck or operation for any period of time (e.g. Al Faw), if they had then they might not be so confident in their assumptions. Same goes for Puma 2, if we are seriously planning on routinely operating Puma2 at sea, then I really hope that the LEP includes a marinisation element. One or 2 non marinised aircraft (say AH and CH47) can be worked around and absorbed into an embarked deployment by a majority of marinised aircraft, but if all embarked aircraft are not marinised then this presents a different dynamic, not just from an operating perspective, but I would also suggest overall risk/safety?

And that is just the equipment, what we forget is that if Merlin did not go to the Fisheads and CHF was absorbed into us or the Army, are we in light blue really going to accept a career profile (for all ranks) that includes many months at sea in order to run future ship's air ops, engineering teams, deck marshallers, fire fighters, etc etc? The RN grows those personnel (not just aircrew) through a career profile that takes time at sea as the norm. I don't think that many of us either joined up or would accept in the future regular 6 month deployments at sea. I know that the first time I found it interesting, but by the second time I and Mrs MM4 were less than impressed.

I do find it amazing (worrying) that as soon as we lose a capability/cockpit seats (through no fault or single Service agendas by the Fisheads-but due to HMG and VCDS decisions/direction) that we then start a campaign of negative PR and information saying the Merlin is too costly or not very capable.

There is no money for Blackhawks, or NH90 or more CH47 or any other new helicopter. I am pretty convinced that DE&S will only accept a core rotary programme of Apache, Chinook, Merlin, Wildcat and Puma. Any helicopter that maintains air mobility and lift for our troops must surely be a good thing, not single Service agendas to try and get the Fisheads out of Merlin by 'eating our own' and trying to scrap Merlin in total.

Comes across as very bitter and twisted.

I think I know why, and it could be because our hierarchy may not have been honest with us until recently and might have created the impression that the Merlin transition was not really going to happen. We all understand that alegedly our senior leadership has tried every trick in the book to not only keep Puma, but also prevent Merlin from going to the Fisheads.

This is the heart of the problem as if we had started honest and open planning for a Merlin transition as part of a wider JHC plan with other transitions then we would not be in the position that we are today where people have only just realised that they will be moving on and it will not be through a career path in the Merlin Force in the long term.

In summary Puma is cost effective and will be in much demand by troops for future conflicts, the cost of Merlin transition is neglible, and be careful if CHF does go as there are many non-flying aviation tied sea jobs just waiting for us if it does, but the bottom line is cutting helicopters of any type or Service is not going to assist future conflicts and the troops we serve.

Can we please stop this very damaging bickering. If we are too busy fighting and focussing on each other then not only will we be disjointed and dislocated for the next conflict, but we will probably miss the real threat which is the next SDSR.