The official line on is it will be given to the families in June but as yet no set date has been given

TSM...As tiresome as this is becoming I'll reply...No-body is saying do not talk about the aircraft...all I, and to be honest a growing number of my operator colleagues are saying is cut back on the harmful conjecture...the desperate grasping of straws...The plucking from the air to keep the subject warm...The talking with technical authority in one breath then a sidestep in another and so on...

How about giving the fleet a break? Sure, rumour away at an appropriate level and perhaps put as much emotive effort into why they aren't getting airborne enough currently instead of trying to ground the fleet...If the BOI supplies us with the facts that satisfy the many interested parties then happy days...If it leaves us feeling as uneasy as some in here I'll personally construct my own tin foil hat and join the gang...

I do wonder what some people here, are trying to find out. I echo Vim Fuego's words in that all the conjecture and speculation isn't doing anything positive for those still operating the fleet, and certainly nothing for the families. Why can't we all just wait for the BOI's findings and take the fight from there?

I was told by Wing Commander ...... ...... that there was a fuel leak on the Nimrod . FACT

And let me just put the record straight once and for all.

The Knight family have been liaising with a L*** M******** from the BBC in relation to a programme "
Can I draw your attention to the word Liasing this means "To communicate with or be in contact with someone , often in order to discuss something"
I have at no time said that I will be appearing on any BBC programme and neither have I been interviewed for any BBC programme .FACT
I have however appeared on the BBC News ,ITV News, and Sky News talking about the petition to Downing street Re the 3-4year wait for an Inquest .FACT

And I am sure once the BOI findings are released to the press they will be asking many of the familes to appear on the news to give there feelings.FACT

Does anyone else on here apart from me think they will be interviewed by the media . What I am seeking is information so when I am asked to comment I can make an informed comment .
As it has been pointed out I am not an Aviator I am a former Registered Nurse.And if I showed you a medical report saying Px's, TTAs and asyptomatic you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. The same with me I have got some of the jargon but the report will be full of the stuff. So its info like abrevations etc types of wiring, fuel pipes I am after so I don't stand in front of a camera not knowing how to reply.

VF

What gives the right to tell a grieving father, or indeed anyone what they can and can't say or do? Just who the hell do you think you are? And what exactly is the problem here that you have so much difficulty undrestanding? You are begining to sound like some pathetic bullied little schoolboy......

'harmful conjecture...the desperate grasping of straws...The plucking from the air to keep the subject warm...The talking with technical authority in one breath then a sidestep in another and so on...' how utterly pathetic you sound. Where is there any harmful conjecture? What has been plucked from the air or grasped at straws?

And what about this 'How about giving the fleet a break' Come on man, take a reality pill. People are NOT having a go at the 'fleet' nor are they having a go at the aircrew and certainly not the groundcrew. People are discussing this tragic event on an open forum in a fairly sensible and civilised manner (compared to a lot on prune) I fail to see why you are getting so upset by it.

TD dosn't want to wait another week or month. In fact, I should think that he and his family don't want to wait another second more. They want answers right now. I appreciate they might not be able to get them yet, but stop telling him (and others) that they can't ask questions about their loved ones, or make genuine enquiries about a 'possible' cause or reason for the accident. He admits that he isn't an aviator, so why not direct your efforts into aiding him rarther than lambasting him?? shame on you really VF.

I was on the fleet also, and I want answers too. I lost many good friends that day like many others and its human nature that people will talk about it and speculate (not that I have made any speculation on here whatsoever) especially if they are ex Nimrod aircrew or groundcrew.

But I'll say the same to you and froobs as I did to Betty, if you don't want to read it, then its quite simple......don't look at it. It really is that easy.

Mr Knight, you carry on Sir, and keep asking as many questions as you like, and feel free to pm anytime you want with any specifics.
Kind regards
TSM

TSM...

'He who angers you conquers you.' (Elizabeth Kenny )

Seriously though, I'm not going to back down on my stance and apparently neither are you...I doubt wether Froobs or Difar69 (I have no idea who these people are and probably never will) and many others who stop short of contributing will cease reading this forum due to your 'outrage' and 'shame on you's'...I think I'll stick around and join in the informed discussion the BOI results are bound to stimulate.

My very best wishes to you.
Vim

'

Vim,
I'm not angered mate, I just don't believe that any of us on this thread have the right to tell Bens Dad (or anyone in their position) what he can or cannot do, or what he can or cannot say or ask, thats all.

Don't back down on your stance by all means, that's what freedom of speech is all about, but don't give a grieving father, mother or anyone in that position a hard time for asking fair and justified questions, please. Thats all I'm saying here. Thank you.

My best wishes to you also.
TSM
ps. I know who difar69 is, but not froobs, and who the hell was Liz Kenny?

The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.”:ugh:

Winston Churchill

“What is this the sound and rumor? What is this that all men hear, Like the wind in hollow valleys when the storm is drawing near, Like the rolling of the ocean in the eventide of fear? 'Tis the people marching on”

William Morris

In other words
As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defence

First of all, I have every sympathy with Tappers Dad for wanting to understand the technicalities of what may have happened to 230 and, similarly, his interest in problems relating to other Nimrods. That said, I think I understand the point that Vim_Fuego is making.

Let us remember that this Thread was started by a certain Ian Liddell-Grainger, MP. He may or may not be solely concerned with the interests of one of his Constituents; who really knows what the true motives of a politician are. I would say that the man deserves the benefit of the doubt and should be afforded every courtesy. We must think of the possible outcomes, though. One may be a recognition that the Nimrod force is under-resourced and needs additional support and funding. On the other hand, it may recognise an under-resourced Nimrod force that is not deemed worthy of additional support and funding. The former case would to many here be a blessing and result in restoration of the Nimrods as safe available force elements. The latter case, though, would probably result in the loss of a still essential capability, at a net cash saving, as a duty of care matter.

Basically, while facts are facts, politics will always be politics and I would recommend caution and clarity on phrasing replies and points.

TD, Keep up the good work sir. If I can be of assistance don't hesitate to ask. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and all the grieving families. Keep Fighting.

TSM Well said.

Lab Queen: I am informed that the BOI will not report in June, thay are still working on it, and will release it asap. It will will then do the signature round.

TD: Are you sure that a W/C told you that the Nimrod had a fuel leak? This would have been speculation if he did.

DV

DV
To avoid giving out details on here which may cause upset I will pm you what we were told on the understanding it is not then posted on ANY THREAD as was a previous pm I did to someone. Agreed

On the point of Tappers dad saying they were informed officially of a fuel leak, I will back that up as my family was also told this information.

As to the BOI, I have been informed that the BOI findings will be made to the families in June, though no set date is in place, when the report then makes the rounds, I do not know.

Found on another forum talking about Kinloss! confidence inspiring stuff!


At my present posting, by the time all the PVR's filter through the only non JNCO or above ranked guys on my desk (for my shift) will be myself and an SAC(t), both of us having only newly arrived on the section. He has no 1st line experience and I have no experience on this aircraft type, only fast jet.

In the space of 15 months nine fairys from my shift have PVR'd leaving a gaping hole in experience. Add to this the continued desert dets, flying the boll*cks off the jets and plumeting morale.

Toddbabe
 

Just read this on a unclassified brief about the state of the military as at Apr 07:

"Voluntary Outflow rates have varied little over the last few years. In addition to existing retention measures to rectify outflow from shortage trades the AFPRB have announced further incentives for the Infantry, Royal Marines and aircrew. Voluntary outflow has dropped over the last quarter."

Not quite what I am seeing or hearing.

If that last statement isn't a head in the sand and make up a soundbite then I don't know what is.

I agree CS :D

My son was fond of his quotes and here's an appropriate one I think:

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King Jr.

I was taught that while good men stand by and do nothing then nothing will get done. But I am pleased to say that there are good men on Pprune who are not standing by and doing nothing.

To Vim_Fuego

When you said
"How about giving the fleet a break? Sure, rumour away at an appropriate level and perhaps put as much emotive effort into why they aren't getting airborne enough currently instead of trying to ground the fleet".

Perhaps toddbabe has gone some way to answering why "they aren't getting airborne enough currently"

And Froobs you said
"all the conjecture and speculation isn't doing anything positive for those still operating the fleet"

Do you honestly think those of us on here who ask questions can have any influence on the those still operating the fleet. If you do then you are saying the few good men on here are able to make a difference add an MP to that and who knows what may be achieved.

Maybe the fleet my son was so proud to be part of will once again be a fleet full of highly motivated aviators.

TD...We all know amongst the fleet why the aircraft aren't getting airborne enough...maybe I was being too subtle for you...It's always been a manpower issue with our groundcrew and there nothing particuarly sinister about it either...It's down to multiple and repetitive deployments and a job market that lures them away...The people that are left are doing a herculean job to make the flypro but it must be getting harder every day as experience bleeds out...


"Maybe the fleet my son was so proud to be part of will once again be a fleet full of highly motivated aviators."
Whats your insinuation?

VM
"Whats your insinuation?"
Not so much an insinuation more of an observation, wasn't there a thread a while back entitled
Kinloss........Whats Going on?
Here are a few reminders of postings

Ginger Beer "I hear of Aircrew refusing to fly the mighty hunter any more and QFI's, line Pilots and Flight Eng's PVR'ing in large numbers, what is the truth and what are the real reasons behind the issues?"

The Swinging Monkey "I don't think I have ever spoken to friends who are so sick-to-death with what is happening, not only to the aircraft that they fly, but to the station and the squadrons and the RAF in general."

Had Enough 77 "I was back up visiting ISK recently and you can feel the difference on the base, the atmosphere has definately changed. There is going to be a large experience gap in the fleet due to basically all the experienced pilots PVRing along with a significant number of flight engineers"

nimblast " ISK is no longer fit for purpose.
Until it stops pretending otherwise nothing will change."

Etc etc.......
Not my words those written by others more knowledgeable than me.
Low morale =Low motivation or is there no correlation ?

Some people are bugging out, many are staying. Morale is low for some and not for others. Amongst the knockers I don't think many have pvr'd (low single figures) but I think more people are thinking hard about what to do at their IP points. Lots of pilots are jumping ship all over the RAF to attractive packages with the airlines as for many the career options that perhaps they joined up with are shrinking as the RAF comes down in numbers, squadrons and aircraft. Eng's are an odd lot as we've stopped training them but not stopped needing them...The location of ISK for some eng's that have been asked to go from southern bases to up north has been a factor...And what can the posters do if the option of waiting for the training system to spit out some more has been disbanded? ans: keep trying to post more until one sticks.

From a personal point of view I don't connect morale with motivation as the fleet is still attempting it's tasking with the level of professionalism people expect of the maritime force... To be honest if the motivation wasn't there you perhaps wouldn't climb up the steps.