Last RAF kill
 

Q at work, 'tother day...
When was the last "Air to Air" kill done by an RAF pilot in an RAF aeroplane?
watp,iktch

Just guessing, but a RAF Harrier in the Falklands.......possibly a helo?

Just a hunch (as Quasimodo would say) but don't you think they might know on the Military Pilot's forum?:ok: :}

Last air to air kill I believe was carried out by this aircraft during operation granby in 1991. It downed an Iraqi Mig 21. Hence the name "Mig Eater"

http://www.raf.mod.uk/gulf/h_images/migeater.jpg

Probably the F4/Jaguar "engagement" in Germany in the 1980s.

YS

Ah, happy days:D

Speedbird_heavy
 

Think that could well be a Mig29,going by the pic under the cockpit!

And it was, according to www.acig.org (Air Combat Information Group website). The "Mig Eater" destroyed it on the ground though.

Regarding the Falklands conflict, the last RAF air-to-air kills were three Argentine Skyhawks, by Sea Harriers on June 8, 1982.

The Phantom-Jaguar incident over Germany happened two weeks earlier.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_303.shtml
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_158.shtml

The RN shooting down 3 skyhawks is'nt an RAF kill then is it really, seeing as the RAF don't have any Sea Harriers.............?!:E

Oh yeah............why is this in the Airlines, Airports & Routes thread?:confused:

Ah! Its now been moved! :}

Ignoring the ...ahem... unfortunate Phantom vs Jag incident (and the alleged shooting down of an abandoned Harrier GR 3 heading sans pilot towards E. Germany by Lightnings, etc) and sticking to conflicts, the last confirmed air-air kill scored by an RAF pilot in an RAF-owned (not FAA) aircraft would have been in World War 2.

[Edited to add - No it wasn't, you idiot! In fact, it was probably the clash between RAF and Egyptian aircraft in 1948 when the EAF lost a couple of Spitfires to RAF Spitfire FR 18s....]

Unofficially, though, there are strong rumours that there was at least one air-air in the Indonesian confrontation when a Javelin brought down a C-130. ISTR that Jackonicko said 'the evidence is there if you know where to look', but I've not looked there myself yet. Perhaps I will...

There are a couple of less well-substantiated claims about a Hunter and a MiG (-17?).

If the ownership of the airframes is removed from the equation, then the Falklands was the last occasion with the RAF providing about 25% of SHAR pilots who scored about 25% of the victories. The joint leading scorer was from the RAF (Flt Lt Dave Morgan), although he subsequently transferred to the RN.

RAF pilots also scored victories flying with the USAF during the Korean war, and, IIRC, there was one scored while with 77 Sqn RAAF on Meteor 8s. However, IMayNot RC there...

According to an ex-GR1 mate, the kill in GW1 was scored by a GR1 bombing an Iraqi airfield. An unfortunate Iraqi was taking off during the raid, was airborne as the bombs hit, and his aircraft was destroyed, which apparently counts as an air-to-air kill.

BCH

Last RAF air-to-air kill
 

Bombs surely don't count, guns or missiles only!!!

If you discount the rumours regarding a Javelin of 60 Sqn downing an Indonesian C-130 and a 20 Sqn Hunter having a manoeuvre kill against an Indonesian MiG-17 in the mid 1960s and also discount the 92 Sqn F4 v 31 Sqn Jaguar incident on 25 May 82, then I believe you have to go a long way back to find the last completely RAF air-to-air kill.

As far as I am aware, the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48. The sqn were based at Ramat David, to the southeast of Haifa, covering the final withdrawal of British Forces from Palestine following the declaration of the state of Israel on 14 May 48. Hostilities had already broken out between the Israelis and the surrounding Arab states, then on 22 May 48 at 0610 hrs two Egyptian LF9 Spitfires attacked the RAF base at Ramat David, presumably mistaking it for an Israeli base. The Spitfires strafed the Spitfire FR18s of 32 and 208 Sqns that were parked in two neat lines, destroying two and damaging another eight. Nobody was injured in the initial attack despite a number of bombs also being dropped on the airfield.

The majority of the pilots of 32 and 208 Sqns were recovering from a severe hangover when the initial attacked occurred, having enjoyed a particularly exuberant Dining In Night at which it had been decided that the Officers’ Mess would be burnt to the ground on the final departure to prevent it falling into the hands of the Israelis. After the initial attack two pilots of 208 Sqn (Fg Offs Geoff Cooper and Roy Bowie) got airborne in Spitfire FR18s and mounted a standing patrol over the airfield. At 0710 hrs three more Egyptian LF9 Spitfires returned to attack the airfield again, destroying a Dakota that was attempting to land, killing two of the crew. Cooper and Bowie shot down one Egyptian LF9 each, the third was shot down by the combined fire of two RAF Regiment Bren Gunners, Sgt Atkinson and AC Waind.

At 0930 two Egyptain LF9s decided to stage a third attack on Ramat David. This time Fg Tim Off McElhaw and Fg Off Hully of 208 Sqn had taken over the standing patrol. Fg Off McElhaw flying Spitfire FR18 TZ228 managed to intercept and shoot down both LF9s, despite this incident being the first time he had ever done any air-to-air firing. Tim McElhaw was later shot down himself by a Canadian flying a Spitfire LF9 for the Israelis - but that's another story.

Tim McElhaw is still alive, along with Roy Bowie – I have no idea what happened to Geoff Cooper after he retired as the aviation correspondent of the Daily Telegraph or Hully. The above details form part of an article I have written about the incidents involving the IAF and RAF in 1948/9 which should appear in Air Enthusiast early in the New Year.

Heimdall
www.spyflight.co.uk

I take it Jindiviks don't count then......???

:p

Sorry, my mistake. Right country, wrong force... :O

How about the C130J Vs unidentified Mig IVO Baku earlier this year?:eek:

Was it a GR1 in GW1 or the Mighty Buccaneer
 

OK, so we are a bit off thread, but we have glanced into the last air-to-ground kill of an enemy aircraft and assumed that it was the GR1 with the Mig Eater logo! But can we be sure that this event happened after XX901 (a Buccaneer) trashed the Cub with a Paveway??

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/pics/gulfwar/gwbucs.htm

Since 'Mig Eater' hit the Fulcrum with JP233, and since (IIRC) the Buccs arrived after the transition from JP233 to medium level PGM use, then the Bucc 'kill' would have happened later. However, I think that the Cub was firmly on the ground at the time, whereas the MiG was in the process of taking off and may have been in flight when brought down: the Cub, as far as I'm aware, wasn't(?).

Not really RAF, but didn't a Saudi F3 shoot down a Mig in GW1?

Are you thinking of the RSAF F-15 that got two Mirage F-1s?? Don't recall seeing the F3 credited with victories...

Archimedes, you may well be right, now I think more about it (that brain cell still functions) I think the F3 got hauled off by an American controller. I guess they didn't want the flying fin to score any points when an F15 was in the air.

Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2

Question
 

If the RAF guys had got the kills, do you think it would have a made a difference to the way air defence seems to have been casually discarded?

WEBF, in a word - 'No'.

D'you really think it would make a blind bit of difference to Buff?

I seem to remember that the AWAC had to talk the RSAF pilot through the whole engagement including getting him to keep the missiles on the rails until he was actually within range. Anyway, back to the thread, did we not manage to get anything from the Korean war? I know we had brown jobs on the ground, did we even have any FJs in theatre? Never heard of anything.....

Didn't an F3 take out a helicopter in Bosnia mid-90s?

WWW,

There weren't any RAF fighter assets in Korea (not even 80 Sqn's Spit 24s from HK). Since the jet aircraft available would've been the Meteor F8 (outclassed by the MiG-15 as the Aussies found out) or the Vampire....

As I think I said earlier, the RAF FJ contribution came in the form of exchange pilots with USAF units.

RJ,
No. Lots of opportunities but the UN ROE chain at the time was far too unweildy to be of use. All warring factions knew this and often replied with abuse or sarcasm to the standard warning transmitted over guard by AWACS and the fighters.
The only time anything was shot down was in Feb 94 when a load of Serb Super Galebs were splashed by USAF F-16s when witnessed attacking the Muslim enclave at Bihac. One of the pilots involved in that engagement was one Capt Scott O'Grady although he didn't get any kills himself.
Regards,
M2

Heimdall.

Point of Order!

A KILL IS A KILL!!!!


.

If an Air to Air Guy bags a MiG 'cos the Mig Flew into Ground. He deserves the cred.


If a Mud bags a Mig on rotate while lifting off the R/W, he too deserves the cred.

If the facts are to be debated, fair enough, but BOMBS DO COUNT!!

Have you ever heared of the BiF?

In GW1 I think an F15 got an air-to-air with a bomb. OK, I know it is not RAF but worth mentioning anyway.

The helo thought he would get smart and go zero doppler in the hover. The F15E lased him and got him with an LGB. Smart.

Yes - an F-15E was credited with a kill against a helicopter using a GBU-10 during Desert Storm - so bombs do count!

The issue (clearly) is whether the aircraft was off the ground when struck. Since manoeuvre counts as a weapon, a bomb must too.

Edited to avoid total duplication of PN's posting....

M2, wasn't it a saudi Prince or similar in the F15? That may have something to do with it, Moral victory to the F3 crew, Well done lads.

Navaleye,
The Saudi pilot in question was Capt Ayehid Salah al-Shamrani who destroyed 2 Mirage F1s on 24 Jan 91 with AIM-9s. Given that all Saudi military officers seem to claim to be related to their Royal Family, he was probably a cousin twenty ninth removed!!
Regards,
M2

RAF exchange pilots certainly got kills with the USAF in Korea. John Nicholls (later an AOC in C Strike or something equally important) got the first in December 1952 (after damaging three more).

Squadron leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron destroyed at least one MiG-15.

A Flight Lieutenant Daniel who flew with 334 FIS at Kimpo was credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952.

Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, shot down one MiG-15

Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White shot down one MiG 15

Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse shot down three more MiG 15s

Other post war kills all happened in wars where admitting them was impossible or politically undesirable, in just the way that the SAS's exploits have so often gone unacknowledged.

I was assured (by someone who was there) that No.208 Squadron took its revenge after four of its unarmed Spits were downed by the IDF/AF. That can't be confirmed, though Tim McElhaw of 208 (later OC 14 in the Canberra era) certainly got two Egyptian Spit Vs on 22 May 1948, and on 7 January 1949 B.Spragg of No 6 squadron, flying an RAF Tempest, shot down an IDF/AF Spitfire IX.

There are also persistent reports that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flg. Off. Dave Williams of No.249, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter bloke got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation (there are lots of references to this: eg: "a Hunter got into a maneuvering contest with a MiG-17, which resulted in the MiG pilot flying his aircraft into the ground. If this actually happened, it was the only air-to-air kill of the Hunter in British service"), and that a Javelin crew got a C-130 (eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")

The Phantom/Jag kill wasn't the first RAF own goal, either, a Lightning F2A (flown by M Valasek?) having earlier downed a Harrier GR3......

Nor was MiG-Eater's kill the only such victory in the Gulf War. On 17 January 1991 a JP233 bomblet dropped by an RAF Tornado GR.Mk.1 did for an Iraqi MiG-25PD as it attempted to take off.

Good post, Jacko and excellent research. Thanks.

Wasn't the Lightning on Harrier event because the Harrier pilot had ejected, the impetus of which redirected the flightpath of the jet towards East Germany (the engine having spooled up again) and therefore the decision was taken to shoot it down before it ended up in enemy hands!

At least so the story went around the bar at Happy Hour at LLK in the 70s!

IAF v RAF
 

Jackonicko

A couple of points about your last post:

I have also spoken to a number of ex-208 Sqn pilots who were involved in the incident on 7 Jan 49. Although everyone was keen to extract revenge on the Israelis (or more accurately two mercenary pilots - a Canadian and an American) they were expressly forbidden from doing so by the HQ. No one I spoke to would confirm that any further incident took place and as the IAF have no record of any subsequent attack on any of their bases or planes by the RAF, I believe the claims of having extracting ‘revenge’ are just wishful thinking.

The four 208 Sqn Spitfire FR18 that were shot down on 7 Jan 49 were armed and could return fire – Geoff Cooper did just that against the American who attacked his aircraft.

I have spoken to Brian Spragg and he did not shoot down an IAF Spitfire on 7 Jan 49. He did obtain some hits on one aircraft, but it later landed safely back in Israel and was subsequently repaired. In the event, he never actually claimed a kill.

I still believe that Tim McElhaw has the last confirmed and completely RAF air-to-air kill.

Heimdall
www.spyflight.co.uk

Folding Wings/Heimdall,

Thanks. No serious research was involved.

Re the Lightning kill, I'm even more clueless than usual!

Re Spragg, I know that he didn't claim the kill, but Ezer Weitzmann later admitted the loss of a Spit, to an RAF 'Spit', on that date. Spragg's engagement is the only one that fits.

Re 208, I spoke to several of the chaps who were on the Squadron at the time. Without checking back in my interview notes I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure that someone that day was unarmed, or otherwise physically unable to fire. Perhaps (and I'm delving into dusty bits of memory here) it was only TJ Mac, who I think got on the tails of his attackers impotently before being shot down.

While many denied that the 'revenge' took place all were distinctly uncomfortable about the question, and two of five people I interviewed grudgingly admitted that air to air kills over IDF/AF aircraft did happen. Part of the sensitivity was political, and part was due to the nature of one of the Israeli types downed - you've obviously heard the rumours, so you'll know exactly what I mean, I'm sure. I didn't understand it, myself - a kill's a kill, don't they say, and it's no different to Sharkey's C-130, really!

My understanding was that two people were very nearly court martialled over it, and that the 'revenge' incidents cast a shadow over the future careers of some of those involved, who would otherwise have been expected to reach Air Rank.

Re IDF/AF records I'd only say that the Israelis have never been terribly helpful in allowing access to any more than the PR accounts, and while they have always been eager to make claims, and to trumpet their huge achievements (sometimes 'over trumpeting') they have never been happy admitting their few air-to-air losses, even when such losses have been independently witnessed and verified.

In any event, so many people have talked to me about the Venom/MiG incident at Suez that I'm inclined to believe that it happened, while the Javelin and Hunter stories in Indonesia are even harder to dismiss than they are to confirm.

Just a point of interest here but i've just been looking at the most recent defence select committee report where Alan West was trying to justify Carriers and he said ...

Sooo...

1/ Why do we need so many eurofighters if this is the case? :confused:
2/ Why are so many of the light-blue anti flat-top? If they want to stay in the air combat game then sea basing must be the way ahead.
3/ Surely WEBF has a point (actually a hell of a lot of points) on not getting rid of SHAR? :O

"reel 'em in!"

Not another "my shade of blue is better than yours" thread.........please.
:{

althenick, I think you are 100% spot on. We are committed to the EF -- I've no doubt its a great plane, but what we should be doing is to expand the F35 community even at the cost of Eurofighter numbers.

The MoD has been clever in positioning CVF as a joint assett and this makes it much harder for the RAF to oppose (although they still try) and for that reason I think the project will go ahead. Personnaly I would prefer to see 3 CVFs with two operational at anyone time.

Well that's the thread successfully hijacked. Sorry to all - I never meant for that to happen, It was just a little bit of wickedness on my part :E

WEBF - did you really say that?