Green Meat

Well done, that makes two of us! That and all the people who do not eat in Messes but pay the food charge.

I refer to the astonishing news about the privately owned and operated Burger Bar at Lympstone.

How on Earth can any faceless f*ckwit try to wipe out nearly 40 years of history on the grounds of some new Ministry of We-can't-afford-it 'Initiative'? From what I read, 'Dutchy's' has provided not only the sort of grub actually wanted by his customers at all hours of day and night, but it has also managed to cope with all the stupidity of the huggy-fluffy Food Nazis, Health and Safety and other Eurocratic bull!!!!!. More than that, however, its unique contribution to the morale of a close-knit corps must also be acknowledged.

Far from facing closure by mindless bureaucrats who would appear to wish to achieve a monopoly for their pet project, Dutchy's should be considered for whatever national award is available. I am totally appalled that the MoD should attempt an unreasonable restraint of trade in order to secure a monopoly for their own contractor. Those supporting 'Dutchy' should write to their MP (as is their right), demanding that this decision is reviewed. Moreover, in an election year when all the wretched government can do is to place increasing demands on the morale of all Service personnel, the value of people such as Dutchy who are prepared to contribute actively to the welfare of our Service personnel cannot be overestimated.

I hope that the Royals fight this daft decision with all the tenacity and fighting spirit for which they are justly renowned.


Later edited to add: The constituency MP for Lympstone (East Devon) is Mr Hugo Swire MP (Conservative). His website is http://www.hugoswire.org.uk/ ; this also includes contact details.

FOOD
 

I was on the end of a contracted out food system at RAF Swinderby back in the 70s and it was awful. Lunch to be fair was OK but the evening meal was not worth the walk I survived by eating in the pub at the end of the road.
We had a contracted out system of similar standard at the BBC as well. We ended up with Pizza delivery people wandering round Television Centre trying to find the right people! Management tried to put a stop to it so we ended up meeting them at the gate!
I wonder what would happen if 50 pizza bikes ended up at the guardhouse at the same time.

Military vs Civvy Catering
 

I've heard plenty of comments about food quality since joining up. The bases where the most people have wanted full PAYD because of the poor food have all been run by contractors - those with military chefs and stewards have been excellent. So, surely, contractors running PAYD is a guaranteed way of stopping anyone eating in the messes, and those same contractors aren't going to make any money! If we're going to do it, then let's have military catering staff with, if necessary, ONE contractor per mess to stop the Chef doing anything silly with the budget.

BCH

If I recall correctly, the RAF Chefs have, as part of their course for promotion to Sgt, training which includes catering budgets and cost/resource accounting. Considering the small percentage of the daily messing charge the Messes actually receive, I think they do very well to provide the high standards we see at most establishments. I stand by my criticisms of contractorised messing though!

SBG

SBG,

In that case, please remove the one contractor from my post above.

BCH

Having spent many years on Tonka Sqn's and plenty of time with the Yanks and Canadians in various places around the world including permanent locations in their home land, I think that mixed eating establishments work.

At each location they have their own messes (Officers Club, WO &SNCOs Club and erks club) where they can enjoy a drink with each other.

They also have mixed rank clubs where (by choice) they can mix with whom they want.

What I am trying to say is that they all eat well and every type of Chest popking establisment exists for the right moment at the right time.

I think we would do well to follow their idea - Money Allowing

As I see it, PAYD gives the contractors running messes something that every other company in the Capitalist World has... competition! As people have previously stated, if the customers (offrs, SNCOs or airmen) do not agree with the quality/quantity/selection of food they simply won't eat there anymore and the business/mess will lose money. Some people are doing this already and simply accepting the fact that they still pay their messing. I know of a great number of people here at :mad: who do just that, preferring to cook for themselves rather than put up with what can sometimes be a fairly poor standard of catering. I understand that the catering budget for the messes is tight and as a result the standard of ingredients may be compromised, however what I and several others do object to is poor standards of food preparation. Some examples:

1. Ordered chips at lunchtime last week. When they arrived, they had been reheated (several times!) and as a result were more like honeycombes full of oil than chips.

2. Friend ordered cheese baguette yesterday. Cheese Burger and chips arrives!

3. Vegetable selection last week comprising of drastically overcooked broccolli, lumpy mashed potato and rock hard roasties!

All of the above grumbles are not a result of under-funding, more a result of staff being generally sloppy. I really feel sometimes that the staff couldn't care less as they know full well that we have little choice in where we eat and that even if we do go elsewhere, we'll still be paying for the food that they serve!

Similar thing has happened behind our bar. ESS decided in their wisdom to withdraw the two most popular beers and replace them with 'extra cold' versions of the two remaining beers. If it wasn't for the bar prices in the mess, I doubt as many people would use it. A sad fact of life.

Think that just about sums it up.

ESS? The people who boast:

ESS operates a revolutionary and innovative service solution for the provision of the Support Services of tomorrow. We have developed our "Best in Class" strategy, which focuses the very best of regional and worldwide resources on providing our clients and customers with the most innovative and cost effective service solutions. With our "Best in Class" partners we drive cost out of the supply chain to increase value, we instigate exciting new initiatives to achieve Operational Excellence, and we introduce systems, designed to maximise capital stewardship. We have developed integrated supplier customer collaborative support systems that have achieved previously unknown levels of savings, and increased value for all stakeholders.

And what does such self-congratulatory bull$hit mean? Cheap and nasty?

Ah, The Mission Statement:yuk:

Note that nowhere is mentioned "We Can Cook".

IIP, Delivery, Centre of Excellence, Bollocks etc.

There seems to be some misunderstanding with what Pay As You Dine is about. It is choice, you have the option of taking or leaving it, there is no chips in place of noodles, or some such option. If you don't like it you do not have to have it! PAYD will live or die on the quality of the service, if it is not good enough...............!

BEagle

I do not have any knowledge of the Marines and how they are introducing PAYD but in the RAF there is choice. For instance, at RAF Halton, Peg's (an evening kebab wagon type facility) is being allowed to stay.

Well, I certainly agree with that statement, what doesn't get eaten today ends up being re-hashed for the rest of the week until some blighter eats it!

SteveStephens, I think we're in an unusual position as it's either put up with the single c :mad: p meal presented or find somewhere else to eat. At least non-veggies have a choice 'in-house', but I'd be interested to know how much of one.

Having visited Henlow at the OM there, PAYD hasn't improved the quality of service or quality of food at all. The staff clearly didn't understand how PAYD worked, and all that happens is that you end up paying for every little extra option you have e.g an extra glass of orange juice at breakfast? - that's going to cost you.
Word on the street is Leuchars PAYD isn't great either. I can't comment on the JR side of things but from our side, its not a good idea.

Stick to your mission.......
 

BEagle,
If that's ESS's Mission Statement then you have to hand it to them - they're bloody good at it.

But nowhere in there does it mention 'delivering quality to the customer'. It's all full of "cost effectiveness this" and "savings and increased value that",

Well done ESS on your job well done. :ok: Now hows about doing the one we require?

Uncle G

1. The BS came from discovering ESS's website after a few seconds of Googling. Note that their 'satisfaction survey' only applies to the website design...

2. SteveStephens, I have not had any reason to visit Lympstone either. However, the website concerning Dutchy's is pretty clear. Anyway, the local MP has been informed about what's going on!

Back to happier days, hands up all those who remember Mary who used to run the real 'Dragon Room' in the OM at Valley? Many a student's late night appetite was satisfied with a couple of bratties and chips! Or the Steak Bar at RAFC Cranwell College Hall Mess back before Cranwell went comprehensive?

A few years ago a kebab wagon used to park close to the NAAFI shop at Wyton, within easy reach of the married patch and the singlies accom.

The one day it disappeared to outside the base. That meant a considerable trek for those farthest away on the patch. On asking the question why?, the owner said that the NAAFI club complained [as is their wont] that they had the monopoly on base and the bratty wagon couldn't ply their wares - there was a good enough menu avaiable in their restaurant.

At happy hour I complained to the Staish [the firey one who was later tragically killed in a Canberra crash on base]. He got a menu from the bratty wagon, called the NAAFI restaurant manager to his presence and told him that if he provided the same menu, the bratty wagon stayed off base. The silly man argued [NOT a wise move] and told the Staish that he was within his rights to enforce the ban [an even WORSE move].

Within 24 hrs the bratty wagon was back on base!

RiP Reg...

As most service establishments, particularly flying stations, are in the middle of nowhere, the options to eat out are pretty limited for those living in.

I have been out of the service for 15 years. Why did the powers to be decide to civilianize the mess services? At Middle Wallop for instance the food and standard of catering was excellent in all aspects but now I hear that the mess is in total chaos. Is it all about the almighty $? Why do the mess members put up with this b**l!!!!!? Do the members have no say in the standard of service provided by these civilian cretins?

Contract Food
 

KENNYR,
The rumours you have heard about the mess's at Wallop are true!. Never before would you have seen such crap food presented and dumped on a table in your life.
My main gripe is that as and ex-ranker I have no problems with accepting a no-frills service...however.....as I pay extra messing and my mess bill I would appreciate at least a little care and thought into my food.
A recent example was that there had been a fixed menu,day in day out on a two week cycle for the past 10 months!!!.

I can hear people saying that the livers in should get off their arses and sort it......granted.....however if we had even a handfull of military personnel involved things would be dramatically different.

Have stayed in numerous RAF and Army messes with military staff and found then generally excellent

No, we don't like it....but as with most contracts of this type these days, once the "trial" has started the project gathers its own momentum and we no longer have any say!

Service catering is at serious risk of going down the tubes the same way housing did when DHE took over. Remember Families Officers? Remember being able to get a works service done the same week as you submitted the request? Remember actually having someone you with whom you could sort out a problem face-to-face rather than some anonymous and endless queue to a call-centre?

Out with the new, back with the old, I say.....

SBG::*

The Power of Pprune
 

Mail on Sunday 8 Aug 04

Jason Lewis - Whitehall Correspondent

Dash it all! Now they're turning the officers' mess into a canteen...


Lifted directly from mgba9pgf on page 1 of this thread


Lifted directly from iccarus on page 2 of this thread



Thats enough cutting and pasting. Another half dozen quotes are taken directly from this thread.


I wonder if they'll quote me:-

The best thing about being in H M Forces...is waking up in your own mess.

What about weekend catering, for those livers-in unlucky enough to escape every weekend? At some messes, both the quality and range plummets.

Some things never change then:sad:

My two penny’s worth having just come out of the present system.

Separate messes a must. For a start everyone needs a break from there boss, also in my experience a lot of decisions / discussions / advice go on over the lunch / dining table. I certainly learnt a lot listening to my peers in the SNCO's mess.

My last mess, on a frontline station, (clue goes up vertically just don’t hang things off the wings) shut at the weekends (including the bar) and it was back to the JRM (after booking a meal) the troops didn’t want us there as much as we didn’t want to be there. There was no animosity but it was there dining room and I don't walk into your dining room uninvited.

I don't agree with PAYD, and as a SNCO that ran a section full of youngsters I have thought about it and discussed it at length with the troops. Most of them won't pay out of principle and that’s because they hate the mess as it is, wave a get out clause in front of them and they will gladly accept it. They will live on fast food out the Spar or p:mad: it up against the wall. Ok that’s there choice but there supposed to be in the military and part of that regime, like it or not, involves a certain level of fitness. Letting the troops eat fast food all week is not going to help that cause.

I have yet to eat in a mess where the contractors have provided a better service, period. There in it to make money not to feed people and I fail to see how contracting catering services out will help any military organization.

It may make me sound like an old f*** but people who bang on about freedom of choice in the military worry me, are they the same people who insisted on single rooms for even the most lowly of ranks? I know of least three suicides that happened during my time that partly could be put down to sending someone to a single room on a Friday night in the middle of winter, miles from home, with no entertainment and nothing to do for miles around. Im convinced that making troops in there first two years of service share a room would solve a lot of the problems the military suffer with its younger brethren.

PAYD may not lead to suicides but it’s yet another nail in the coffin of the military caring about its people.

Rant over, sorry it’s a bit long winded.

Skeleton

You will see from my previous posts that much of what you say has already been discussed. I am sure, when you were an airman, you moaned at having to pay for food you did not eat. This has been going on for many a year and one of the reasons that PAYD is being trialled.

It is true that some people will not eat in the new facilities, for your information nearly 50% of RAF personnel do not eat in the messes now. However, PAYD is about choice, the Contractor has to provide services that are attractive. It is not a MAC, the contractor does not get any money if their are no customers!

As a final point, PAYD has been running at a number of sites for over a year. No one, to my knowledge, has starved or gone without meals. In my experience, if you treat people like adults, then they act like them.

Steve

Morning Steve,

I had read the thread with interest before I posted. Just giving my take on the situation.

I was aware a large proportion of airmen don't eat in the mess as it is, but in my experience the more junior members, by that I mean people in there first two years of service, said yes I want PAYD because it means I won't have to use the mess at all. I would hope that if you treat people like adults they would act like them but I would need convincing :suspect:

I cant comment on what services the contractors now provide, I can only comment on what I saw in the past and have to say IMHO it was not of an acceptable standard.

I would hope no one would starve, as has been said even the most unsubtle of line manager should notice if Porky Bloogs turns into a Racing Whippet. :)

I dont agree with PAYD, but understand that the majority probably do, I would certainly be failing in my job as a line manager if it was implemented and I didn't take an interest in wether the troops were actually eating properly. I remain to be convinced that some (not all) actually will be.

I have yet to meet one person who has a good thing to say about PAYD.
Its just a shame that no one who has anything to do with implementing PAYD here's the stories. On a visit to CAM at Henlow, our course (we weren't the first and won't be the last) complained about PAYD, to which we were put in out box by the Sqn Ldr who obviously was in favour, despite never having lived in the mess and sampled it. Our method of complaining meant that no on heard about it. A comment to the mess reception that the system was poorly ran, and that the staff knew little about how the system affected normal livers in, was taken, but I doubt anything was done about it. There isn't even a comments/forum element to the PAYD website(Not the folder issues in the hyperlink - it is one which is being ignored) Unfortunately, PAYD is just another degregation of Service life.

Point me in the direction of an officer who has benefited from PAYD. :*

Skeleton said

Do you ask the single youngsters who live out in privatley rented accom what they had to eat and if they are eating properly?

Likewise do you check that each person living in the block has eaten breakfast? After all isn't it still a chargeable offence not to eat breakfast?



edited to remove a freudian slip :confused:

Got to agree, for various reasons it will be.


No I had enough trouble starting myself up in the mornings :)

That rule was taken out ages ago I believe.

Just like to pose another situation. What do we do for the young airman who marries a divorced women with 5 children.

Answer: provide a quarter, nothing else.

I know the situation is hyperthetical but we don't give a flying fig about the young married airman/airwoman. It smacks of double standards.

Its a good point Steve and it does smack of double standards.

I never agreed with the no alcohol rule in blocks either, no one inspected my quarter for alcohol when I first married.

Would have loved to have seen the Mrs face if the SWO and his gang came in after tea and demanded a bull-night on the lounge :O

The Food Chain!
 

If you are in the "food chain" as a Mess Member and have any choice in whether to move to PAYD then say no! The company may not offer more expensive bar prices initially, they will creep up over the coming months! The choice of food at the counter will start off looking like a good selection until the mess members decide that eating is better and cheaper elsewhere, and then the food choice and standard will decline! Any priveliges that you think you had as a mess member, like getting the mess to cater a private function for you at a "brilliant" price and a bottle of scotch will go out of the window - expect to pay high street prices if you can afford to use the Mess's Catering Company!

The whole affair is yet another degradation of the priveliges and standards that we used to enjoy living in an Officers' Mess or a Wardroom.

Another one of the reasons that I have chosen to PVR from the RN after 27 years!

The rot started in the eighties, it has gone beyond the point of no return it appears.

Objective has been achieved, glad I am no longer in the Service:sad:

Pay As You Starve!
 

As A brand new member of your site, and certainly not a 'flyer'... 30 years in the RM taught me to keep as far away from you guys as possible. I beg your indulgence! All of my adult life I have admired the RAF for the way the 'other ranks' have controlled their service, after all, where else could a mere aircraftsman, or corporal, get out of bed, fuel and ammo a war machine... pat his officer on the head, watch him go off to war, and then stroll back to the canteen and enjoy a leisurely breakfast, then after his second cup of char wonder if he had anything to do in the later forenoon... Now that has got to be the only way to fight a war.
Sadly the politicians seem to have cottoned on to your methods, they seem to be introducing a new system... PAYD, or as I hear you guys calling it..
Save as You Starve.

I have read all the previous threads, and can stick my tongue as far in my cheek as any of you, but this new system will have very serious results:

I know you boys in light blue can look after yourselves, but this system seems set to take over every military establishment in UK. My concern is how it will affect my 'Alma Mater', 'The Commando Training Centre Royal Marines'. That establishment has, for the last 40 years been very well served by a family (father and son, father having served through to pension)with an after hours access to calories (not to mention advice). It's called "Dutchy's".... Unfortunately they are not part of the conglomerate that is destined to take over the feeding of our forces..

But... If what I read on this website is replicated at CTC, how will a young marine recruit, who probably doesn't stop working until.. Oh Crack Sparrow.. get enough calories to be able to 'turn to' fully booted and spurred the next morning (which as I recall, comes all too soon.)

I don't think todays politicians even care, let alone know...

I would ask all readers of this website to take a look at www.savedutchy.co.uk

After all, whose country is it!!!

Regards,

Dave Barrett
[email protected]

SAVE AS YOU STARVE
 

Understand that the SAYS trial at a secret Bucks base has been delayed yet further, now some 18 months late (but stand to be corrected). The 4 major food retailing companies are starting to realise that there is no profit in this. To make a profit you have to put prices up, or reduce quantity and/ or quality. If you do either of these people will vote with their feet and buy elsewhere be it local pub, Tesco/Spar/NAAFI or local kebab van. Add to that the cost of updating the infrastructure and it will take a significant time before any profit is returned.

The solution must be to stop the subsidies from food charges that go to other areas and continue with the system we have. Unfortunate for the areas where food is currently "free" but does mean that all should get what they pay for. It still wont stop the moaning of a "I pay for 21 meals but only ever eat 3" - that's the system like it, eat more or move out.

Incidentally I understand the companies bidding now want to take over the running of all Mess bars (if not all bars) on station - some profit to be had here. The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit. Now watch bar prices (and the cost of all social functions) go up if YOU allow this to happen.

" The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit." ;)

Undoubtedly true! "Let's split it 4 ways. Right, that bit is mine, now then 1/4 each of what's left to the OM, SNCOs & WO's mess, the Airmen's Mess...oh, and me of course!"

When I existed (I say 'existed' - 'twas hardly 'living'!) in the OM for the first few months when I arrived at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome many years ago, the only thing which grated was being charged 3 days' extra messing if I ate breakfast one day, lunch the next and dinner on the third but only for 1 day if I ate all 3 meals on the same day. Never did quite understand that.

My final dealings with the OM was being charged some token amount for breakfast after my final Dining-Out. Had to b£oody well pay for that as well........ :mad: :mad:

Lucky you BEags.

On one dining out (carefully organised for after I had left the station - somewhere to the North East of East Anglia) I was presented with the bill for Breakfast, the previous night's Dinner AND the overnight accomodation - at non entitled rates of course!
For the one when I finally left HM employ at least all I got was the bill for the dinner 'cos "It was a DHFS dinner and not an RAF one!" But then again I was lucky enough to listen to a lordship give us his 45min speech he was presumably giving to the Defence Committee later on the state of the training system - sorry, I mean I listened to the first 5 mins then joined the rest of the comatose members of the mess. Equally :mad:

PAYD killed the mess at Culdrose.
Livers in dipped out - they now all cook in their room and the ironing rooms. they now stink as nobody will wash up. corridors ming too.
Food standard is APPALLING. the so called core-menu (what livers in are entitled to at standard food charge) is cr*p. tasty options are presented at about 3 times the cost of the core menu.
food is now cooked in small batches so there are no healthy vegtables cooked, just small fried things.
it is really noticeable in the social aspect, people no longer sit down and have en evening meal, in the old system you would take smaller portions and 'do the card', whilst troughing a bottle of seahawk plonk. gone now.
If you live in the mess and eat your meals in the mess (missing breakfast and weekend meals) - you will certainly pay more under PAYD. The ARAMARK staff tell me that the prices are still cheap when compared to a pub meal - true. Can you imagine the cost of having to eat every meal in a pub?
PAYD marks the beginning if the end of the services obligation to their men. You could always count on being clothed, housed and fed no matter what.

During my last visit to Culdrose i was staying as duty, after checking the raft of rules over breakfast to see what i could have i selected some tea, 2 pieces of toast and a bowl of cornflakes (choice was this or a cooked break - 5 pieces, but not both). after finishing i went to give my chit to the lady, she totalled it on the computer and said i owed 14 p
- What for? I asked
marmalade sir.
-Why?
marmalade is not a core menu option sir.

Nuff said

Does anyone know if the '3 into 1' system is officially approved yet? Can't help but think that if the contractor is taking all of the profits from the bar and gaming machines etc that mess functions will become so much more expensive, as there wont be cash in the ents fund.

And who is going to set the GPP of the bar? Who is to say prices wont double?

The end is nigh folks.... just you wait!

BK

Just out of interest, are these "Trials" being forced upon the livers-in, or do they require a vote to be passed at an EGM etc? Cant imagine many Officers messes at least allowing some Civvie company to pilfer our bar takings and rauciously increase prices? And if we do go to these catering systems, I take it an INDEPENDENT body will be responsible for dealing with complaints, monitoring standards and setting price caps that we will all be aware of before this major project gets fully underway and legislated?

Because if not, I sure as hell wont be voting for PAYD in my mess! And I garantee I will be voting with my feet if they try and charge for individual plastic portions of sauce and spreads!

MBGA