kato - check yer PMs ref Jack
Glad I could help
(2000 Phantastic hrs):ok:

PHANTOM PHAN

The only explanation I can offer is that the Phantom weas flown at optimum Angle of Attack on the approach, so the wings were working pretty hard, causing a lot of aerodynamic drag and buffet. This, coupled with the relatively high power setting and, possibly, the noise of air being bled from the engines and blown over the flaps (Boundary Layer Control) may have produced the noise you describe (unless it was the rapid grinding of metal on metal as the pilot moved the controls around in a rapid panic!). Hope this helps.

Blaireau
 

Yup, definitely remember Alfredo, Sunday lunchtimes were a particular joy in those days. From your comments, I reckon that you and I were probably at the same wedding in 1972, then, when the groom got a tankard from Boston RFC with the inscription, "When you're up, don't Black out"....

jf

Blaireau,

Yep, the Sebastapol was a very pleasant spot. We had a period detached to Waddo and an evening run to Minting for a swift half on the way home was a great way to end the day.

The sour sod at the Lea Gate moved on eventually. It's not a bad place these days, although it's a very occasional treat now as I live many miles away.

Does anyone know how to spell-check in PPrune??

PHAN

One of the most critical lessons learnt from VN (and most other wars) was that singles don't survive long in combat. Ask Erich Hartmann...or Johnny Johnson

"Alone, unarmed and scared !!!!e-less" is/was a more apt description.

To answer your question, Recce "Pukes" tried, not always successfully, to get attached to packages of attackers for mutual protection. In the absence of our armed brothers, we went in pairs. Eight eyes "on-stalks" much better than four.

Most missions in Desert Storm / Proven Force (***both North and South) were flown as part of an attack package, if the targets were in the same vicinity. Primarilly for SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) "MAGNUM" was always nice to hear if you had an SA-8 tracking your bottom!

Cheers
Kato

PHANTOM PHAN
The grinding noise you refer to was the result of the Bleandreeble Manual Override Valve getting stuck in Auto, a common enough occurrence with the J-79.

ZOOM!

Are you absolutely certain it was the Bleandreeble Manual Override Valve? I thought that retro-fit was only available on the SPEY!!!!??? The J-79 utilized the spondulie overture arch type!

F4 TDPU
 

A good turnout last night...looking forward to next year`s.Missed you tough "Greek God"!!!!! 92 were outnumbered!

Paladini
I think you're right! I always get those 2 mixed up. B*gg*r!

F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Hi folks

Watched a TV programme last night that descibed the F4 as a flying bus!?!

Just wonder if there are any ex F4 drivers out there who can please dispel this myth! It also mentioned that the gull shaped wings and anhedral tailplane were due to design mistakes? Not quite sure how that would work!

Cheers

Tiger

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

The number produced and the multitude of Nations that bought them testifies to the quality of the 'bus' ride. It was not the sleekest of its' era and it did have a few odd angles to overcome specific aerodynamic problems but it worked and looked workmanlike.

I thoroughly enjoyed the 2600hrs I spent in the 'bus' and it was capable of beating most aircraft of its' time. It provided the RAF with their first real look down shoot down capability and it could escort itself on strike attack missions. With those attributes one could forgive the aerodynamic properties and where there were instability characteristics, at least it remained predictable - if you screwed up it bit you.

It also provided much satisfaction if you got it right - GA results depended almost entirely on the crew, not on the accuracy of the avionics. Al-in-all I found it much more of a challenge than the more modern kit.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

America's proof to the world, that given big enough engines even a brick can fly!

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Really?!

Brick

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Would this be the same show on Discovery Wings that said the F4 had "J79 Spey" engines?:}

One of the chaps that made such comments was a civilian lecturer at RMAS. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to judge his level of expertise on this particular matter.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Never heard of a two-seat bus and a supersonic one at that.:)

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

5000 built and in service around the globe. It was THE aircraft of its generation. I loved it.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

The original Toom was called the AH-1 (Attack, McDonnell) and had flat straight wings and a flat tail and plain side inlets. IIRC they had some pitch-up problems (lot of things did then) and drooped the tail so that it would not get blanketed by the wing wake (and added the dogtooth on the wing). They found that they needed a little dihedral on the wing, so rather than bend the whole thing they applied a larger degree of crank to the folding bits. Then the Navy decided that they wanted a Mach 2-plus fighter, which meant new inlets. All this was done before the first aircraft flew, which was not bad going for the 1950s. Then the Navy wanted more detection range = bigger antenna = characteristic bloodhound nose, and raised the RIO's seat.
The great and good Bill Gunston recalls seeing the first wire photo of the prototype in the Flight office, with everyone falling over laughing about this clearly screwed-up design...

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Was it true that the guy in the back got a bit more of a battering courtesy of G compared to the chap in the front or is this a myth?

I'd have love to have had a flight in an F4*, a truly thunderous beast for us mortals on the ground.

*Although the Bucc would be my first pick if I had the choice.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

THS

Wherever you read about people in the back (of anything) having more trouble with g than people in the front, this is likely to be because the bloke in the front normally knows when the g is coming and can strain. The chap in the back can get caught all relaxed and all.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

The backseat gets a little less G than the front- up to 1/2 g I recall reading for the F4 (back seat is closer to the C of G, think of levers and rotational velocity etc.). What really screws up the backseaters day is when sudden applications of G are unadvertised and Baldrick finds himself with his head in his lap and suddenly able to accomplish something he probably spent most of puberty trying to do with little success (if the harness wasn't in the way:ok: ).

For the record, the mighty Phantom was the dream aircraft for me growing up. It just looked the part- mean as a bag of mean things. Too bad it was in the process of being retired as I arrived.:(

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Anyone know what happened to the ones that were to be kept in deep storage at Shawbury 'JIC'?

sw

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Check the specs on the F4M or fgr.2 made for the royal navy with spey's they later accepted delivery of F4E/J's? with J79's. who's the expert now?

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Rigpiggy - I think the point he was trying to make is that it was quoted "J79 Spey" as if it were one type of engine rather than two different ones.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Confused the tankers on Q at first when the Js arrived and they didn´t have to descend for the join..... ;)

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Biggest problem, as they were ex-USN, was the air start. Every time they diverted the had to hitch up a cart and drive it across the country to get them going again. They did like their US flying kit though. :)

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

I can testify to the utter delight of getting it 'right' in the Big Beautiful Beast = an immensly delightful and rewarding 'bus' to drive (really told you where you had screwed it up though). Flew all the AD varients the RAF had and loved em all. Especially the J.
Some of the American flying kit was great - mainly the helmet that fitted, didn't weigh a ton and was painted in a colour scheme a/r by the owner. USAF flying suits and the 'illegaly black fin' modification were also excellent for pi##ing-off senior officers and mates with a sense-of-humour-deficit . The starter issue was good for long landaway excuses to nice places. Never was too keen on the origional life preserver and joke-dingy though!
The Helpful Stacker - Me too bruv.:ok:

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

(Post deleted as I just noticed that others explained my point quite adequately.):ok:

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

THS,

Sorry to rub your nose in it, but was lucky enough to get a backseat trip in a 74 Sqn F4J at the back end of 86. I was a sqn ops 'shiney' and was given the trip on leaving the sqn. Sqn Ldr John Sims/Simms was the pilot and the trip was the best memory I have of the RAF - bar none! Told by the auth on walking to the jet 'no air combat with a pax on board'. 20 mins later we made an rv with another F4J that just happened to be out over the North Sea on an air test! For the next 10-15 mins did not know my a... from my elbow! Still, in between sessions in the sick back, it was bloody fantastic!

Did not think too much of Wattisham at the time, but being on 74 more than made up for it. Great days and great people to work for. Dick Northcote, Cliff Spink, T+9 the list goes on and on.

For me, the F4 was 'the' jet to get a trip in, but if I won the lottery, I would off down to sunny SA to book a trip on the banana jet at Thunder City!

WJMcP

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Beagle, How cr@p?

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

So how would you rate yourself compared to "Sly Pokum" then, Beagle? ;)

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Must have been the paint job on the Lizard, Beags, that makes it look a little closer than the half mile separation we were allowed. Dare I say that we we often out there alone as the F4 had gone home U/S.

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

What did they work out the tail-fuselage separation must have been after the Ruskies complained when the tanker closed and got the door number...........

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

As an ex-rigger with time at Coningsby ('68 - '70) then Brueggen (couldn't find the code for an umlaut), first on ASF then 14 Sqn, I remember the FGR2 with fondness. I also remember a Brueggen Family's Day when the Sqn display crew did their thing along the flight line and then disappeared. Thinking that was it, the crowd of spouses and ankle biters in front of the hangar relaxed........only for the Phantom to appear from behind, drop down in front of them and engage full reheat. Cue lots of screams, shrieks and tears. :hmm:

The anoraks amongst you might like to try http://www.thephantomshrine.co.uk/

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Gorgeous aircraft, as many people have already said, it really did look "meaner than a bag of mean things"

Sadly it was before my time, but it was definately one of the major influences in my choice of career, and I can still remember the A2 sized poster on my bedroom wall.

Aaaaahh, Memories:p

Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
 

Now... please forgive me for asking this.... I dont think I've ever been quite so spotterish... :yuk: but...

What were the differences between the FG1 and the FGR2?? Anything significant? Anything obviously physically different? Were they both carrier capable?