maxburner
 

I believe it goes along the lines of:
The older I get, the better I was...

The best thing about doing it in the F4 was that if it worked you had the satisfaction of knowing that at least part of the success was down to you.

Not like these computer driven machines we fight with nowadays!

Couldn't agree more - While a skilled operator will get more out of an F3 than a numpty the numpty can still survive. In an F4 the numpties dropped out early.

Four tours F4 and 2 tours F3 - I reckon I could still make the old grey goose sing a sweeter tune than the fin!

As for Buccs being too low to kill there is some truth in that but I think you had to be below 56 feet to be really safe. Favoured trick was just to fly straight over the top with the gun spewing out 20mm at 6000 rounds per minute. Bullets don't worry about fuzing heights or guidance or chaff or decoys - so why do we keep taking the guns out of fighters?

Happy days - I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was:E

Quite right Impiger, you can't jam a bullet either.

SmartMan Oh they were certainly some fun sorties - much better fun against Bucc than Jag - something to do with that second set of eyes I guess. Of course, at least we always knew that you wouldn't be shooting back (other than knickers)! Those were the days!

Anyone remember the "Scottish Group Captain"?(OC RAF Leuchars)
It was a round of beer for the entire bar if you mentioned his name anywhere in the Air Force and, after over 2 tours at Leuchars, I was asked who he was...didn't know!!
:p

Actually, although he was an unpleasant motherf*cker, he did at least kick arse down at Binnsworth and that helped the military accreditation for civil licences thing get going......

A good height, Impiger - nice digits.

About the only thing I could do on the F4 was air-to-air mit bullets. Chewed up the flag pretty well at APC, I did! And even savaged some East Coast range once with 52% and Griggles in the back. Then bounced Scratchdick on his Tac Check on the way home, catching them as planned in the frequency changing faff between Useless Radar and Neat - oooh, was revenge sweet or what!

Say what you like about the "Scottish Group Captain" but once he got promoted to really useful rank he was/is a star. His paperwork and staff work were pure genius and his dedication to the service and the task was beyond reproach. Shame his relationship with the sharp end was not so good but I don't think flying was really his forte. He is the living proof that you don't need to be a good fighter pilot to be a good staff officer.

Courageous move Soddim!

He is of course now the Scottish Vice Chief - what was his name again BEags?

Have to concede that he did seemingly improve at Air rank.

But as a Wg Cdr he was a complete W***** and, in my humble opinion, an utter liability as a pilot.

Sorry, Impers, can't quite remember.......;) ;)

I know, I know, its....

I can't believe people are saying nice things about Ba .... erm ... the Scottish Group Captain! Anyway, shouldn't we be speaing about the mighty F4 rather than people who weren't even very good at operating them (Nasty Nigel anyone)?

Did anybody ever see the Saunders Island photo gallery? Does anyone have any video footage from Mt Alice? Anyone care to talk about the F4 from Wattisham that hit the ground during a flypast and got back to base? Did anyone actually try dragging the hook through the sea? Anyone like to claim an altitude record? How about the highest accidental overG? Come on, don't be shy!

Seems reasonable to make this a sticky for a while - let us see what happens. ;)

Altitude record......

I wasn't at the controls merely hanging on for grim death in the back when the clock finally stopped winding up at around 52,000 in a clean F4J(UK). Amazing how you don't realise that pressure breathing has kicked in when you're concentrating on what the fcuk the nose gunner thinks he's up to!:E

I seem to recall 60K as the limit on VHL AI.

One day, at a much lower level after an engine air test, I went sight-seeing around the west of Scotland, and en route back to Leuchars very low in Glen Tay, with the bit between the teeth, a sudden very loud bang caught both of our attentions. No lights illuminated, and no handling difficulties were apparent, although on a slow speed check, it all seemed quite lively.

Taxiing in, the sailors were all pointing at the aircraft in curiosity and amusement which was explained when I climbed out. A large amount of metal in the form of tanks, pylons and dummy missiles was gorn. 6 o'clock 200 yards on the Tyndrum Hotel. Made the TV news etc. One of the looms had frayed firing all the ERU's.

Twice had runaway gun at Deci which caused concern, but no injuries.

Quels jours heureuses.

I've seen 60,000 plus after a high speed run on completion of an op-shoot at Akrotiri. I was too stupid to realise why he beast and its AEA had a 50,000ft limit. I've also seen 825 indicated. Another woops.

A friend of mine saw what he though was an oil-slick off the Falklands. He went to investigate, and it turned out to be a flock of albatroses sitting on the water. They got airborne and he pulled an estimated 12 G to avoid them. The fletchers got bent, but the jet was back on the line a couple of days later after some checks. It was a tough bird.

Did see rather a lot of IAS when pitching back against a GAF F-4.....as Impiger knows.

Also saw rather more AoA than IAS when going up looking back over my shoulder at one of Alconbury's finest trying to track me... Amazing how noisy the pedal shaker can be on such occasions. Select mil power, 19 units and wait - but she came out just fine! F-5 driver didn't get to chant "Atoll....Atoll" either!

Anybody remember the Robinson Loop? Used to teach it in the early days on 228 OCU until some dilligent chap looked carefully at the Release to Service. It was the school solution to min time 180 turns - if below 450kts one rolled rapidly to 135 deg bank angle in full burner and pulled 19 AOA until achieving 8.5G, then controlled bank angle with rudder maintaining 19AOA/8.5G until the reciprocal was reached. If above 450kts, one rolled to 45 deg bank and pulled 8.5G until approaching 19AOA. With skillful anticipation, one then overbanked with rudder using full burner to maintain 450/8.5G until the reciprocal was reached.

Rolling G limit greatly exceeded!

I blame Doctor Death!

Which is probably why we had such weedy 'g' limits in the early '80s...

You're right, Beags, we used 'em all up.

OK, sorry for a mere ex-Air Trafficker jumping in on your "good old days" stories but I thought I might share my abiding memory of the F4J at the hands of, I think, a certain Louie McQuade. It was at Wattisham during yet another TACEVAL and it led to one of the best quotes in "Feedback" I ever saw. Apologise for the length of this but I feel it needs a bit of scene-setting and I think it is worth it in the end

Wattisham is wet and cold and the F4 is on its way home from a diversion to Brize where it had gone after dropping his chute on our runway earlier in the day. He is coming home, minus chute with p**s poor brakes and not much poke from the engine.

Basically at Wattisham in the wet, the F4J landed and was under control by the mid-point or it was getting too late to try and get airborne again. We get word that he will take the approach end cable (cos he has no chute) and we are all set. With great timing as usual the sirens go off, the masks go on and Louie is on approach.

He comes over the threshold, plonks it down and sails over the approach cable with no apparent loss of momentum. Hmmmm, thinks us in the Tower before the Tower guy utters the line "I think you missed the cable". Biting his tongue, the cockpit response is "you're right, I will re-cycle the hook and take the PUAG" (portable arrestor gear at the mid-point of the runway). "Roger that" is the Tower controllers response as he leans over the desk to get a better view through his mask; joined by the rest of us displaying not a little amount of interest in the developing situation. The aircraft slows, marginally, and sails serenely over the PUAG stubbornly refusing to connect with it as it trundles on its way.

We have just passed the point of no return, there is not enough power or runway to get airborne and probably not enough brakes or runway to stop; interest is heightening in the Tower and I order "masks off" as we hit the 'Crash Phone'. Before we can stop him, the Tower controller informs the crew that "they missed the PUAG" and, through clenched teeth now, we are informed, with remarkable confidence that they will "re-cycle the hook once more and attempt to take the overrun cable". So the F4J trundles down the runway, slowing all the time but, you always felt, not quite quick enough and it is now being hotly pursued by 3 gleaming Red Fire Engines.

Despite re-cycling, the overrun cable is not troubled by the hook and the situation, already interesting in the cockpit, becomes a tad more serious as the lumbering F4J approaches the end of the runway, the Barrier and the overshoot with more than its fair share of momentum. [Apparently cockpit discussions now turn to the likely acquisition of a couple of Martin Baker ties but hands are kept firmly away from the handles for the moment]. Ever game, Mr McQuade steps a little heavier on the brakes, squeezing every last drop out of them whilst slowing the aircraft down at a remarkable rate.

Just when it looks as though this may fizzle out into just another exercise story the tale takes a dramatic turn, literally, as the aircraft decides enough is enough, breaks free from all attempts to stop it and gracefully pirouettes through 540 degrees to leave it still travelling down the runway but now facing the wrong direction. The atmosphere is now fever pitch in the tower, and I daresay it was a little gamey in the cockpit also. I will leave it to Feedback to close this; having given the details and got to the stage where the aircraft is careering backwards down the runway the article simply states: "Finding himself going backwards down the runway, the pilot coolly applied power and brought the aircraft to a gentle braking halt in the runway overshoot".

That night in the bar when being questioned as to why he stayed with aircraft and spurned the chance of a fancy tie, the response went along the lines of "one hand on the stick, the other on the throttle what am I going to pull the handle with, my d**k!!!". I can't remember who the back-seater was but I do recall he was a lot quieter than usual that night.

Aaah spey Phantoms.... Abiding memories of airshow performances as a youngster mainly - partic the camo 43 & 111 birds in the 70s & 80s. Any ex display pilots out there?? Am slowly researching jet display flying in the 70s and would love to pick up any info - partic the routines flown.

just a couple of images so we all know what we're talking about!!!

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan180.jpg

http://http://img48.photobucket.com/...IA/Scan177.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan113.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...DIA/Scan57.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...DIA/Scan56.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan177.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan178.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan179.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan181.jpg

Nice ones Hairyclam and thanks.

The F4K in the photo was my nominal cab and has my name on the side.

Brings back memories of the Yeovilton detachment rehearsing for Silver Jubilee. A huge Somerset pub-crawl.

Yes - great piccies indeed. Especially like the 56(F) jet taking off!

Giant Zum'zett pub crawl? Did you visit Eli's at Huish Episcopi? Or the Volunteer at Seavington St Michael?

If I recall correctly, Eli's was associated with Keith Rawlinson late of the FAA. Served superb scrumpy there.
After the final flypast rehearsal at Spithead, an epic crawl took place ending up into the small hours at the Wardroom. The real thing was rained off.

Question about F4 fin mods
 

Just looking at the photos I noticed that some of the aircraft have a small rectangular horizontal stablisor type device attached to the top quarter of the fin and some aircraft do not. Anyone able to explain what is did and what models needed it? It looks like an after market addition to solve some aerodynamic quirk.

cheers

Vic

It was indeed RWR, fitted to RAF & RN birds from '74. Think the last one to be fitted (to operational a/c - BAe & Mod test ships didnt get'em) was 1986.

Aah, having re-read victor twos post I believe you are referring to the ILS aerial, again fitted to RAF only birds from '75??

I know its not a photo forum but do you want more pix??

More Pix??
 

Definitely!!

JF

OK ! Here goes! - more old timers....

First 3 slides, sorry about quality - just nostalgia really!

4 OCU machines in Sept 73
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan182.jpg

4 6sqn aircaft Sept 71
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan186.jpg

767 strutting their stuff, Biggin 1970
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan187.jpg

A rare bird, BAes test machine at Scampton 1989.
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan189.jpg

Fighting cock 1977
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan192.jpg

76 display ship - Ian McFayden as pilot
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan193.jpg

892 in drab weather
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/...IA/Scan194.jpg

Hairyclamperson


You're right the horizontal aerials are the ILS and the boxy thing on top of the fin are the ARI 18228 RWR aerials. When delivered the FG1 and FGR2 had neither ILS nor RWR! The mod to provide both to the FGR2 took place at the same time, but the FG1s (particularly thoseon 892 Sqn RNAS) only got the RWR because the ILS went in the cockpit space where the internal wing fold was located. RN aircraft could fold the wings on pilot demand whereas the RAF had to get te groundcrew to do it.

Extremes
 

Once had an unofficial competition in Deci with Stanley Sp**r to see who could get the best AOA:IAS ratio. We pulled up from battle formation into the vertical, let the F-4s slide backwards (what 150 kts limit?!) then went home to look at the results on the ACMI replay. Probably a limitation within the system somewhere but we both recorded 46 AOA and 23 kts! Have already posted my fastest speed, but also once reached (just!) 70,000 ft in an F-4F. POulled up from 32,000 doing M1.85, cancelled burners at about 58,000 and was fully unloaded (stick fully forward for non-drivers) at less than 80 kts as we arced over the top! Stupid really, but the WSO and I decided to go for it as a one-off!

meadowbank
:ok: on the ident....Dec 80 the date, XV414 was the aircraft.....

maxburner
Guess I was around as well at the time - anybody know where Nick Morgan is now?

Wiggy,

PM for you.

Hi Guys

My only experience of the MDD F-4 Phantom II was when I was a Cadet in the ATC. I was on an ATC camp at RAF Wattisham in September 1992, just after 56 Sqn disbanded and just before 74 Sqn did the same. I would have given anything to have flown one and it is definatly my favourite aircraft. The noise that it made was amazing, it just looked the part, like a real warplane, built for many role, and every role it did well.

If anyone has any pictures of the aircraft in 74 Sqn Colours I'd love to see them.

Richard

F4
 

Finally tempted to join PPrune after many years of anonymous surfing. Nice to recognise some familiar-sounding contributors. Credentials approx 2k F4 hours, plus some time in the spazjet. Interesting to see some dodgy pictures (250' MSD - not). If you're looking for photos there are plenty on the web, including brit stuff. If you want moving pictures you might try to track down (Bad) Manners - he produced some videos when 56 and 74 were at Wattisham.
Talking of altitude records (57k myself), laughed lots when I heard of an instructor calling VMC on top i.e. above 66k. ATC promptly replied: "Roger, radar control terminated, contact on ICF to re-enter controlled airspace". The next transmission was allegedly a pan due to double engine flame-out.

I did a bit of untintentional reversing once. It was my last sortie on the squadron and I was in the back of a 2-sticker running an exchange pilot through an IRT profile - whoopy doo! I started to set the aircraft up for him to do the usual 'recovery from an unusual position' on instruments. I did a couple of rolls and generally flopped about a bit to disorientate him, and then pulled up into a 70 degree climb with the engines at idle. Speed was about 250 - admired the sunset - then 130 - admired more sunset - then 130, at which point I thought 'That's not right, speedo's stuck!' just as the speed dropped off the clock. No problem, but I decided that it wouldn't be fair to hand over control at this stage so I just centralised controls with a view to doing it all again but properly. The nose began to rise so I pushed the stick forward and the nose rose even faster into the vertical. With the stick fully forward the aircraft wasn't recovering but the nose was still rising, and then I noticed smoke drifting upwards out of the intakes. It dawned on me that we were now going backwards, which is why the elevator was operating in the opposite sense. I centralised controls and held very tight, muttering something like 'Hang on!' to the the other driver. The aircraft crashed over onto its back, down through the vertical until it was about 70 degrees nose up (again), then flopped down through the vertical again until upside down and horizontal-ish, and then pendulum-ed a few times through the downward vertical, with us being shaken like peas in a pod and crashing our heads against the windows. I thought 'How embarrassing - last sortie on the squadron and I'm about to eject!' Eventually the jet steadied out with its nose pointing at the North Sea, engines still going, the speed began to increase and I levelled off. Calmly I said 'You have control. What else would you like to do?' and then we went home - quietly.

I learned about flying (backwards) from that.

Zoom,

Sounds like one of my landings!

Neither of you fly for Eastern do you? On a business flight last week it felt like the guy in the RHS was using the F4 technique to lose a few knots on touchdown (or was that to trip off the INAS?).

If Dead Dog is around - the flames out of the intakes sounds familiar; remember the 4v4 F16 DACT on the Nth Sea ACMI? It wasn't the best way to avoid being gunned, but it worked.

Remember how impressive it was (well, it impressed the ***t out of me) to roll from landing, engage full burner and lift the flaps at the same time - both engines surged - vapour coming forwards out of both intakes - alternate max thrust/no thrust throwing crew back then forward in harness.

What a beast - glad it didn't bite too hard.

A machine that talked back - what a pleasure to fly and operate in.