So here's what has changed. Now we have the AEW to detect the threat and the means to deter or attack it. From April we will still have the means to detect the threat but we will no longer have the means to deter or defend our ships against it. I would hate to be in a SK7 watching a BVRAAM homing in on it. But, I am afraid the lunatics are running the asylum these days.

The BBC had this feature yesterday: On this day

It would be nice to think that the Government would take reasonable steps to prevents it happening again, but of course the current political leadership has a callous disgregard for the welfare of the people that they send into harm's way.

The irony is that Phalanx now fitted to the T42s would most likely have saved Sheffield from a (then) modern sea skimming missile but it would not have saved Coventry from a plain old fashioned low level air attack.

How is a GR7/9 expected to find its way home to its carrier at night and/or in bad weather without radar? Radar plays an importanmt role in navigation and safetyas much as it does combat. This is a big steop backwards from a safety perspective.

The same way we always have! And it's even better now that Lusty's TACAN is online.

I've been on ships with no functional radar and presumably TACAN can fail as well. Presumably pulse ratyes rise considerably at that point?

They've risen long before that point!! You want me to land on that thing, in the dark?!

OK Brown trousers then
:}


Wow 1000 replies on this thread already. Would I be right in guessing that under normal condition the GR7 is an easier beast to handle compared to the FA2?

I haven't actually flown the Shar, but my friendly naval colleagues who have say the FA2 is more responsive in the VSTOL regime whereas the GR7 is more stable. There's a lot more inertia to handle in the GR, and that can be both a good and a bad thing. In the 7A with it's improved thrust to weight ratio it can obviously hover heavier than the regular model, but at higher AUW it changes the hover characteristics somewhat.
Not that I'm complaing about having a bigger engine though!

How much more responsive does the 7a feel compared to the 7? I understand that the primary reason was to improve STOVL performance but 10% extra thrust must have benefits across the entire flight envelope.

Now that the UK election is over, will we soon be seeing British participation in actions against targets in Syria and/or Iran?

Events in Iraq suggest that Washington likes to UK to have roles which are fairly independent of US forces, frequently in seperate locations. Both nations have coastlines, the Iranian coast is obviously more extensive. Both have aircraft with anti ship missiles. I am assuming a UK contribution similar to the Marstike 05 group - CVS, a T42, one or two T22s or T23, perhaps an SSN, and some RFAs. Perhaps some amphibious forces for raiding.

If this sort of action happens before the last Sea Harriers go, and the Sea Harrier is used for real, against attacking aircraft, or to protect the mud movers, will this win a reprieve? And if we send a task group without air defence (remember Tony does not like to say no) will the Government take responsibility for the consequences?

Slightly off topic, the first of the Type 23 Frigates being cut (the Conservatives had promised a reprieve, the Lib Dems were opposed to the cut, and even the Greens said it was a cut to far) was decommisioned either today or very recently. No doubt she will be for sale soon.

I fear the next few years will not be pleasant.

No, really....we will be invading Iran soon......

What are you on WEBF? Have you not seen how overstretched the US forces are right now? Soldiers, sailor and airmen spending a year at a time in the AOR....

By all means keep campaigning for the SHAR but let's add a little realism, eh?

SBG

I have to say I think an invasion of Iran or Syria is unlikely (but they both border Iraq where the US have plenty of Troops). More likely is an aerial assault, in which the UK be asked to participate.

WEBF,

With respect to the sinking of the Sheffield there is slightly more to it than that to which you allude.

There were some very serious mistakes made by the ship's captain Sam Salt and other members of the crew prior to the attack.

This does not take away from their bravery in the aftermath of the missile strike.

Cheers

BHR

BHR, such as the AWO not in the Ops Room in the absence of the Captain. No one able to give the orders to take counter measures. A fact deliberately covered up in the BoI - a fact everyone in the fleet at the time knew. 20 men dead largely because of one man (not Sam Salt).

Casper,

To answer your question. The FA2 has a number of items that help in the VSTOL regime. First it has a very good landing aid that tells the pilot when to shift nozzles to the correct position to bring the aircraft to a halt alongside. They also have "nozzle Nudge" which I understand the GR doesn't. This all makes it much more stable in the hover although with a lot less available power.

SBG

I did not say invasion. That would not be possible. Air and missile attacks, and limited ground incursions (by helicopter/sea?) might be seen as an option. Can you see Tony Blair saying "no we can't/won't put a carrier group there unless you provide air defence?"

BHR/Navaleye

Surely better to focus on why the system failed than what one or two individuals did? No AEW, CAP diverted to investigate spurious contact, no weapons capable of dealing with a sea skimmer, NBCD shortcomings (all of Sheffield's fire pumps failed, as did the ermergency one) etc.

WEBF, you wrote: and Dictionary.com defines 'invasion' in the following terms:

1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
2. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
3. An intrusion or encroachment.

Now I am sure you read my post to infer No 1, but if you put troops on the ground in a sovereign nation state, opposed by its lawful (we can talk about that another time) head of state or government, then that constitutes an invasion.

Do you think 'raiding' or air/missile attacks don't constitute an act of war? Considering the hard time the Coalition is having in Iraq, are you honestly suggesting that we will launch offensive military operations against Iran? If what you're saying is true then I'm sure we will face No 2 i.e. a large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful!

Your support for the SHAR is admirable but you continually portray scenarios here that are either a. based on some made-up exercise that may or may not bear any semblance to a real conflict; or b. take political rhetoric and information intended to influence and accept it as an intent to conduct military operations.

On that basis, I'm glad you're not an Int O....(or maybe you are....!!!!)

SBG

Webf

Yes all these points are valid and understood and they were certainly contributing factors. Even without them, Sheffield could have defended herself and most likely not taken the hit. Remember Glasgow detected the racket from the Etendard, detected the aircraft and the missles being launched. She even tried to engage the Exocet with Sea Dart. While all this was going on the threat was being broadcast to the Ops Room in Sheffield and warnings given. The simple fact of the matter is with the Captain being absent, the AWO on walkabout, no-one in the Ops Room could give the order to take any defensive measures, so none were given and they all sat there like lambs to the slaugher. Fortunately, that has since been remedied. Regarding Sheffield's fire main, that was unfortunately taken out by the missile. The T23s have been re-designed and it is unlikely a single hit would result in the loss of all fire main. Sheffield's loss was largely down to grave errors in procedure rather than material faults.

My point is that if there had been AEW etc, blunders like the one you describe would not have been catastrophic.

Navy News is running this story about the disbandment of 899 NAS. As I suspected, the period prior to the election meant that controversial stories (ie cuts) could not be run in the last few weeks.

As for raiding/incursions you might find this interesting.