Nozzles,
I wasn't sure, so I played safe!
Regards,
M2

GR9 + AMRAAM + Sea King AEW
 

We know that AMRAAM can be fired in an unguided mode from F3s :O . Would it be possible for an AMRAAM to be fired from a GR9 but be targeted from a nearby AEW platform?

Navaleye
Nice thinking but no.
and
for how much longer?????
in reverse order

I found this:

"The Future

On the 28th February 2002, the Armed Forces Minster Adam Ingram announced that the Joint Harrier Force will become an all ground attack harrier force upgrading the Royal Air Force GR7s to GR9s and retiring the Royal Navy FA2s. This is to ‘ensure a credible expeditionary offensive capability is maintained until the aircraft leaves service. Supporting this decision the Ministry of Defence said:


"These days we don't fight the kind of wars where our ships need defending from enemy warplanes far out at sea. Aircraft Carriers are now mostly supporting shore operations by flying strike missions and it makes far better sense to spend our money on Harriers which can do that best. If necessary, we can rely on coalition forces to provide the outer air defence for surface ships."


An added level to the layered air defence will be provided by the new Type 45 Destroyer equipped with the sophisticated and lethal Principal Anti Air Missile System (PAAMS) which is capable of controlling several missiles in the air at any one time, each one of which could engage individual targets, preventing attackers from swamping the fleet's air defences. "

I think their service in the Malvinas campaign was worth their cost. One can never tell.

That is an excellent Destroyer, BTW. I'm an old Tin Can Sailor, and it beats the old DE's I served as a Midshipman on. Talk about crude and cramped. Oy.

AEW capability
 

Nosegunner, I've seen nothing to indicate that the govt is planning to drop carrier capable AEW. It will be needed for CVF. Have I missed something?

AEW Capability
 

I understand there will be a carrier borne AEW in the form of SK 7. However, as it is rotary wing based it will suffer in terms of time on station (non AAR), speed of response and coverage. The main intention is for all major operations the AEW and other ISTAR capabilities will be provided by shore based aircraft.

If no one can see your carrier no one knows where to fire the missiles. Is it easy to hide a carrier out at sea?

Rivet - "If no one can see your carrier no one knows where to fire the missiles. Is it easy to hide a carrier out at sea?"

At least a carrier is moving, while bases are stationary, and their positions are known by the targeters.

1. Sub Sonic.
2. Combat Radius of a pound coin.
3. Only front line jet not to get invited to Telic

Sorry about confusing post - I was short on time.

The "for how much longer" referred to unguided from an F3 (which is a bit untrue anyway) not AEW.

GR9 AMRAAM
 

OK. If the crabs considered it OK to fire AMRAAM in an unguided mode from an F3 why not do the same from a GR9 if the need arises. An SK7 could provide range and bearing and a GR9 could hang a lot missiles. Surely this is better than nothing? What am I missing?

How accurately does the SKW know its posit, how accurately does the GR know its posit, how accurately does the SKW know the posit of the bandit, what sort of update rate does the SKW have, how long does all this info take to get to the AMRAAM, can the AMRAAM be given all the necessary info (its a lot more than just range and bearing)..........
Thats just a couple of points off the top of my (unclassified) head.
It would never work. Trust me!!!

GR9 ASRAAM integration?
 

The RAF website makes no mention of it. Last i heard it was canned. Has any public statement been made on it?

Hansard 24th October 2002:

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reasons the ASRAAM missile is not to be equipped to Harrier (a) GR7 and (b) GR9 variants. [76345]

Dr Lewis Moonie: We are currently upgrading our Harrier GR7 fleet to GR9. Shortly before such a major upgrade, it was not considered cost effective to carry out such substantial modifications.

Consideration was given to equipping the Harrier GR9 with ASRAAM as part of the upgrade programme. However, as the Harrier GR fleet is already equipped with the Sidewinder AIM9-L for defensive purposes, and the purpose of the GR9 upgrade is to improve offensive capability, it was concluded that fitting of ASRAAM would not represent the best use of Ministry of Defence resources.

Hansard:

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether Harrier GR7 has a gun capability; and if it is planned that Harrier GR9/A will have a gun capability. [49752]

Mr. Ingram: The Harrier GR7 does not have a gun capability, and we have no plans to give a gun capability to the GR9/A......

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if the integration work on Sea Harrier for ASRAAM has been completed; and at what cost. [49763]

Mr. Ingram: The work to integrate Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) on Sea Harrier has been terminated in the light of the recent decision to withdraw the aircraft from service by 2006 which is earlier than originally planned. Expenditure on the ASRAAM integration programme did not exceed £1.2 million.

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when Harrier GR7 will be operational with (a) Brimstone and (b) Storm Shadow. [49754]

Mr. Ingram: Following the upgrade of Harrier GR7 to GR9 standard, it is intended that the Brimstone anti-armour weapon will enter operational service on it in 2006.

We do not currently intend to integrate Stormshadow on to Harrier GR9. The operation of Harrier GR9 from the CVS with Stormshadow will not be practical, due to the size and weight of the missile. In addition, it is not currently considered to be cost effective to integrate Stormshadow on to Harrier GR9 solely for land-based operations; this capability will be provided by Tornado GR4.

ASRAAM capability
 

ASRAAM is supposed to have a range up to 15km which is substantially better than AIM-9. I also understood that ASRAAM is plug and play compatible with AIM-9 launchers. What sort of expensive integration is required?

ASRAAM would go some way towards filling the gap left by AMRAAM much more then AIM-9. I do not understand MoD thinking on this point.

ASRAAM is a high speed, high agility, next generation, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile. Designed as a fire-and-forget missile, it is able to counter intermittent target obscuration in cloud as well as sophisticated infrared (IR) countermeasures. Although ASRAAM is predominantly for use in the within-visual-range (WVR) arena, it also has a capability in the beyond-visible-range (BVR) arena. The missile uses an imaging IR seeker (manufactured by Raytheon in the USA) and will equip Tornado F3 and Typhoon aircraft.

ASRAAM is the world's first IR missile to enter service using a staring array detector, which detects the whole target 'scene'. The actual picture is very similar to a monochrome TV picture, and gives the missile excellent long-range target acquisition capability and enhanced performance against any employed countermeasures.

In a typical WVR engagement the missile is slaved to the target either visually or by aircraft sensors. The missile is then launched and following release it accelerates to speeds in excess of Mach 3 whilst being guided to the target using its IR seeker. The missile can be fired at very high off-boresight angles, in either lock-before or lock-after launch modes. Because the missile has a fire-and-forget capability it allows the pilot to engage multiple targets with multiple missiles at the same time.

Aircraft

* Tornado F3
* Typhoon

Specification

* Primary Function: Air-to-air Infrared missile
* Length: 2.9m
* Diameter: 16.6cm
* Launch Weight: 87kg
* Range: Over 10nm
* Speed: Mach 3.5+
* Guidance System: IR staring array with modern autopilot

ASRAAM Integration?
 

Navaleye,

Seems someone has been reading the ASRAAM glossy sales brochure. In open forum I can't list all technical points but:

"ASRAAM" is plug and play compatible with AIM-9M launchers". Yes, if all you want is a fast, leggy 9L then that's close - but not 100%. There is also the weapon system behind the launcher that supplies release/steering signals to the missile.

Then there's the aiming cues - the missile goes further, so you can shoot sooner - just a simple software change? Depends on how accurate you want that cue.

These are the kind of integration areas that soon increase costs.

9L is an analogue device dating back many years. ASRAAM was designed with a compatible (not plug and play) connector in front.

The glossy brochure features of ASRAAM require use of the digital interface this is further aft on the missile, on a LAU-7 this connector is covered by launcher structure.

This became obvious (doh!) when people expressed an interest in the additional "features" only to be told their "compatible" launcher did not support the digital (1760 like) interface.

E.g "The missile can be fired at very high off-boresight angles" - yes it can - but NOT using the Sidewinder legacy interface; this requires digital control.

The list goes on, but would reqire a more controlled (secure) forum for debate.

regards to all,

Here is a link to some very interesting attempts at seaplanes.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avcmast.html

Dear All contributers

You have made an old man very happy with the nice things you've said about the Sea Jet.
Its nice to know that the 15 years I spent helping to flight-test it in FRS1 and F/A 2 guise have not been wasted.

I think that UK should have bought AV-8Bs, but we always insist on taking something that works and modifying it with something that does not work e.g gun!!

Now perhaps we can say some nice things about Hawks.

Hi Duncan!

I remember your HS1182 lecture all those years ago - a fascinating insight into the design of the beast! Quite liked the Hawk, but it had a truly dreadful compass system when it came into RAF service - and why, oh why no offset TACAN like the G-nat? The original twin-plate brakes weren't much fun - and the anti-skid was a bit too keen to operate on wet runways (especially Dunsfold in early 1981!)....

Now, all these years later, it has trained hundreds if not thousands of RAF pilots and has a loyal following. The 'magic turn' was and still is terrific - 420 KIAS, pull to 6 g and beyond and round she goes barely losing a knot!

A great design - but even better after all the years of testing and development over the past 20+ years!

Great link Esperto:=

I remember once landing at small airfield in Florida (think it was called Lakeland-the ol' memory could be letting me down though) that had its own little museum. Outside, on a plinth, was a Sea Dart. I thought it was a wind-up at first. It must have been quite a ride.

Saw a programme on Discovery recently that had a short feature on the Saunders-Roe jet flying boat. Had some great film of it taking off at sea with the canopy slid open and the barking mad pilot looking sideways, grinning at the camerman. Those were the days to be a test pilot.:E