Airman Aircrew pay review
 

I have been hearing various rumours about the impending pay and conditions review and would like to hear what any AA (mainly AEOp) have to say about it??????



ALWAYS assume NEVER check

May I suggest that in our own interests we DON'T speculate about it on here? The review will be announced on 6 Feb 03 with roadshows starting there after. We have less than 2 weeks to wait. I personally have a lot riding on the outcome and I strongly advise we don't give them an excuse at this late stage to pull the rug out!!

Dude
I think the best advice I could give you is bend over and brace yourself, just hope they dont go in dry:eek:

By the way nice handle:p

Surely someone must know something by now? It was released today!
Came on here expecting the site to be chocka with posts, but looks like my faith in human nature has been shattered!!

Whilst we all hope for some sort of financial gain don't forget its not a pay review it's a Sustainability Study.
Call me synical but I can't see a whole lot of loot coming our way!
Still, up North find out today and hopefully someone will post the contents here later. Keep smiling they don't know what youre thinking!:D

For those that can, Intranet access required:

http://www.publications.raf.r.mil.uk...asp?DocIDNo=45

Makes for interesting reading

Brief points are here: -

http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.c...ommon/aass.htm

Full report coming to an Royal English Air Farce base soon!!!


I'm alright Jack

Airman Aircrew pay review.
 

For all interested parties doon Sooth:
A 20k bonus for all those at their 17 year point. If already served between 17 & 22 then it wil be a % of.
A professional aircrew spine for all those chosen having attained the rank of F/S at the 22yr point. This gets rid of flying pay but substantially increases basic pay and therefore making greater pensionable opportunities. Other stuff involves swingeing changes througout the training and recruitment enviroments.A fair attempt at addressing the current problems within the profession.

Great to see the news about the Airman (Aircrew) Sustainability result - at last the people who need it most have got the recognition they deserve (not sure what the folks on 22-plus and 13-minus years will be thinking though?).

Some tips for not being so cold down the back:

a. Spend more time in the Galley - the Teapot makes a great hot water bottle.

b. Load the bags more quickly and work up a sweat.

c. Seek a commission - its "Warmer in the middle".

P.S. To "Freezin'in the back" - didn't realise that any of :sad: ones' or Whiskas' gangs had the capacity to form actual thoughts.

Keep Smilin'* / Moanin'*

*Delete as appropriate

Warminthemiddle,
If you have a commission yourself and sit in the middle how the bl00dy hell would you know what a teapot is for.
ps the galley is next to the bog!:}

On the subject of the airmen aircrew susblah... 12 yrs done thinking of PVRing what incentive is there in it for me to complete 22. The way I see it the RAF is going to give people who are in the pension draw and have no intention or little of leaving, 20k for doing what they were going to do anyway. I thought the incentive would be to keep people in after their 22. Correct me if I am wrong this is based on crew room chat as we have not been briefed yet

airman aircrew sustainability.
 

To Escapee . . .
My reply earlier to the original post is as accurate as my memory will allow. I think that those serving between 3 and 12 already have a bonus scheme, at 4 and 7.5 yrs. (I may be mistaken).
Listening to the chat in the crew-room this afternoon, people seem happier than I expected, particularly with a section of the brief indicating how surprised the powers that be were with our complete lack of faith to date in the leaderhip. This has been and will continue to be, addressed as a matter of urgency. Stable door and horse bolting spring to mind but at least the problem has been recognised!

Can somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here, but havn't us AA who have just shown allegiance by staying in past the 22 year point and now in our 23rd year, been once again, cast aside. It was only 2 years ago that they paid out to our fellow MACR who had completed the 22 years, whilst colleagues in my position fell short by 12 months. We have already suffered the humility of the down grading of experianced squadron FS but how much more can we take. I am positive that there must be many more AA in my position and would value your comments.

bah humbug,
what a total crock we have been sold and the powers that be know it (AASS gets a good old slating in the AFPRB's 31st report). Wow a £20K FRI for those at their 17yr point and a percentile payment for those with less 5yrs to run, this incentive is only to run for 3yrs so yet again their airships have a short term solution to a long term problem. It was good to read that flying pay is to be paid dependant on rearcrew employment, once they have got the mystical computer fixed in 2005 (I have got to admire the gall of that blatant lie)

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:


ALWAYS assume NEVER check

Having gone into it in great detail, there is absolutely nothing in it for me. I have done over 22 years, with 2 years to my age 47 exit point.

So let me see, you want me to go to the desert for 6 months out of my last 2 years and take a 5K paycut when the bonuses aren't replaced. Mmm I don't think so!!!!!

My PVR went in at 1330 hrs.

Most of you guys will moan and b*tch but VERY FEW of you (If any at all) will actually vote with your feet. So you get what you deserve I am afraid.. :rolleyes:

Airmen Aircrew or should I now say NC Aircrew, is there anything in it for those who have passed the 22 yr point, i.e. can they join the new professional aircrew spine, opt out of commissioning and have the flying pay included with the basic pay, leading on to a higher pension? Also worthy of note that the FS and MACR ALMs are still in the lower pay band :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :yuk:
edited for spelling, don't spell 2 good when upset.

Airman Aircrew pay review
 

I have just completed 22yrs , too late to get the 5k bonus. I don't see that I will get anything out of this review.
A solution perhaps is for a lot of AA who have not reached their 12yr point, or have passed their 22yr point to Pvr / Ngr, then form a limited company and sell their services back to the RAF. It would only take 40-60 AEOp's to do this and the RAF wouldn't cope.
:mad: you bet I am!!

I don't qualify for any of the bonuses and it is unlikey that I'll qualify for the PA spine. I can however see and understand what the powers have tried to do. Let's be honest , you are never going to please everyone without looking at individuals' case by case. Even then I'm sure that we would still have some unhappy puppies.
The flying pay thing will never be resolved. Get used to it. We were all expecting an increase, `aint never 'gonna happen. The O's pay may come down to match ours but ours will never reflect the closed shop that is O's flying pay!
Like others have already said, "if you aren`t happy then just do one" and take up one of the many jobs available for us out there.
The desert beckons and I'll see you all out there.

Reading into it....

The 20k is taxable, we'll be lucky to see 13k, if you decide to leave before your 22, (pvr, lose flying cat, get a commission in a non-aircrew branch etc) you have to pay back the full 20k. Nice.

The 4 and 71/2 bonuses are going to free up cash for the PA spine and the 20k. (from the horses mouth that one)

In 2005/6 the comparative flying pay will be looked at, (not nessesarily awarded), and my boss, officer type, has been told to expect a pay cut around then. Not all bad then.

The 'empowering' of Masters means they will effectivley do the jobs the F/L's do as crewman leaders/ Aeo's, so guess what? Less commisioning opportunities. (unless you go ops support)

Promotion to F/S no longer coming with an offer to 55. Can't have us slacking.

Maybe I'm wrong and it is a good thing.

Or on the other hand maybe it's frozen toblerone time....bend over.:eek:

So

As a 13 1/2 yr flighty I would not have benefited at all, most of what was put forward to the team was taken up and this reflected well on those involved. Apart from the incentive for people just past their 12 yr point, but then very few leave at 12 yrs, most leave at 17.:rolleyes:

Those of you with teddies airborne at the moment should look carefully between PVR and NGR, dont take the blunties word read the Ap closely, having walked all is not rosy outside, expect to work a lot harder for less rewards.

I only hope that within this whole jumble there is a serious look at terms of service for the new Non-commissioned Aircrew branch or has only the name changed?

Regards to all in frozen blighty, now where did I put that chilled local chardonnay, as it is piggin hot out here.:p

GOFORIT
 

GORILLA you earn my respect. You have the courage of your convictions. Certainly 'middle of the aircraft' material.

FIXEDWINGFAGGOT you have my sympathy but you know were in the dictionary that comes. The airships note the Gorillas of the world and when they become the dominant creatures the changes for all are introduced. Sorry but they just view you as a whinger who has not the courage of theit convictions. Dream the excuses but the cut no ice with the AVM's and AM's. You are paid 36k+ for your loyalty. Thats what they can convince the Treasury it is worth.

ESCAPEE Be happy. You have a new Budgens and one of the smartest coffee bars in the HUNTER fleet. One day your existance will be near perfect with a new building. Perhaps perfect when they give you your own heating when sitting very close to the galley/toilet. My new colleagues cannot believe that you can make a cup of tea and have a pee at the same time.

To all, if you are involved in the possible forthcoming events, fly safely, my thoughts are sincerely with you.

Am in a room in the Eastern part of the World watching Schindler's list;clucking bells. Am thinking how lucky we have all been and how things could be so much different.

My arm is also sore and I wonder if I have done the right thing. I am scared for what may happen and yes, I will be in the front line of things evan as an NCA "member" (to coin a phrase).

I know people thought they were going to get something fantastic out of the our "AA review", however I hope they didn't expect it. I hope that as the non-naive professionals that we should be, that we would understand that the requirement of the Service was not to lose (in the short-term), the numbers of NCA that would statistically cause grief to our fleets.

We have seen these reviews for years, and should know that only a few benifit and the majority lose. The people we think should have been targeted never are, and those who were, should n't.

Consider yourselves lucky and think about what you could be earning in civvy street; Consider what you are getting now.

For those of you that have served less than 14 years; you have a great deal to achieve and give, for us knackered sh*ts who dont get a penny; we have a great deal to pass on, and to take.

I am watching people being murdered now. Sorry to be so stiff,(it has been a week).

Don't hold your breath....
 

A word of caution for all thinking the PAS will mean a huge pension increase because of the flying pay being included. What they will probably do is give you a 'representative' pay band for pension purposes (whatever that means). All I know is that it is not as good as it first seems. The 'representative' pay band is not equal to your current pay plus flying pay at all. The Officers' PAS pension is calculated on the number of days done on PAS multiplied by a supplement, which will probably be changed as they see fit...(PAS pilots will get an extra 64.7p per day per year on PAS whereas WSO (RC) will only get 41.1p per day per year). Yet another front/rear split occuring and I thought we were all operating the same aircraft.......

Also will you be required to sign up for the new pension system when it comes out?

AVTUR

I think your post sums things up exactly!
You are sat with a sore arm. At some point you may have to take unlicensed tablets that may interact with the injection that caused your sore arm and permanently damage your health. You are scared and on the front line!

As for the review, I didn't think I would get anything except that which had been agreed back in 1998. It is not unreasonable to expect the same rate of flying pay as an Officer who does EXACTLY the same job as me! It was agreed in 1998 and AGAIN in 2003. But we aren't going to get it are we?

I know the salary I get now, I will never get in Civvie Street. But quality of life has to come first. What are we? A rag tag cash starved outfit, trying to be a world power Air Force. With Dad’s Army managers who aren't fit to be running corner shops. About to fight a war that the British public don't appear to support. Most fleets over 35 years old and ready to drop out of the sky, troops having to buy their own equipment!! NCA will always have Commisioned Aircrew looking down their noses at us and treating us as if we just dropped off their shoes.

Out there the grass isn’t greener it’s true. But as I am rapidly discovering, the job market is very strong and for any one who has done 22 years plus, life can be extremely comfortable outside.
I have made absolutely the right decision for me in PVR'ing.

Bottom line, fellow NCA is this: If you don't like what they have done in the review then leave. If you are not going to leave, then shut up and get on with the job in hand!

As Black Adder said just before he blew his whistle in 1917 “Good luck everybody”

:p

First, lets not lose sight of the need for the study:

"...to ensure that the appropriate number and quality of AA, of all specialisations, are recruited and retained in order to meet the long-term operational needs of the RAF."

It was NOT to satisfy older sore-in-the-tooth rearcrew who felt hard done by over various issues. There was a deficit of people leaving at a certain stage of their careers and a cash incentive has been offered to sort that deficit.

As far as I can see:

New WSO branch structure: good, allows possibility for crossing to 'other trade' if we want to.

MACR to be employed for recruitment and selection of WSOs: good.

Training: single, modular course. Perhaps not so good for those wanting a specific trade. But good for re-training (AEO changes to ALM etc).

Career Managment Strategy: So far I think we have not had a proper one (sqn merry go-round). This is a start. MACRs to PMA, SO3 etc.

NCA to get accreditations for quals. Good.

Remedial physio work for crewmen. At least they are recognising its a problem which needs sorting.

PA spine: I'll reserve judgment on this one 'till I see the numbers. I'd welcome a larger pension, although I do n.b the above comment about what it might really mean.

It also recognises that MACRs don't do alot of management stuff for their rank. Running a section is a bit more like it. So at least the Sgt/FS/MACR ladder gives something to aim for.

I'm dissapointed by the defferal (sp?) of the flying pay issue again. However, it will not make me leave.

MACRs to be Rearcrew Leaders. Good for the challenge and responsibility, but I do wonder about the subsequent lack of a Commisioned link. Rearcrew leaders: did you ever get THAT much sorted out at the bar in the O's Mess? As far as I can see, if you have a Boss worth his salt, ni matter what his rank, he will fight your case for you if it is a just cause.

just to show the other side of Seafury's coin....

1) Really, how mny NCA bang out with five years or less to pension time?

2) I've lost count of the number of servicemen/people I've met interested in ALM, but are concerned about the FW/RW uncertainty. I honestly believe that the new system of "what's my job going to be, where am I going to get posted?(Kinloss)" is going to wreck recruitment.

3) MACR running sections...excellent, however, logic suggests that this will turn into a money saving excercise (no need for Commisioned AA) , and put an end to the Officer/AA flying pay problem.

Realistically, especially if the rumuored pension changes occur, what incentive is there to remain in service after 12 years. Or is this part of a master plan?

Boots has got it spot on. Does anyone know of anyone daft enough to actually leave at the 17 year point with all the pension/gratuity implications that entails:yuk:

If anyone is fooled by the new recruiting package then you really need to try and get out a bit more. It's nothing more than a stealth effort to get bums on seats in the frozen north of Ice Station Kilo. And the daft notion that you can "retrain" from Aeop/Wsop to maybe Air Eng or Alm is laughable and if they think anyone other than the gullable spotty faced youth from off the streets is going to fall for it then they are pi@@ed:rolleyes:

MACR in important posts is a great idea........or cut out Comissioned Aircrew and save all that pension and gratuity and flying pay costs.............which do you think the bean counters thought was most important :p

Reality check folks......it's a cost saving exercise with a last ditch attempt to mug enough punters into place in Kinloss.

For my money an offer of 22K at the 22 year point for a return of service to age 47, would'nt help me as I am already at my 29.5 year point so no axe grinding here:p , and relocating the Grimnod to Lincolnshire would have been two outstanding moves solving retention of quaity AA and increasing the desire of guys to go Aeop/Wsop over night.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

ABIW

What a very good idea move the kipper fleet to blighty give the lads time to get their skin colour to white from blue before they go to sunny places.

It would however upset the sweaties - ah well.

Their Airships and the rest of the Air Force might even realise that the Norman exsists and is not a cold war relic - but then that may require intelligence.:eek:

The review has to be better than a website and a poster campaign.:D
no dis to the AAircrew webmaster, how is ISK by the way:=

ABIW said:
 

Does anyone know of anyone daft enough to actually leave at the 17 year point with .........

I asked that very question, and the answer is that the Incentive , bribe call it what you will is to retain people after their 12 year point. I think a wedge at 25 years would have been more constructive but then I am just a worker:yuk:

I cannot see many ALMs wanting to go to other trades but can see the downsized AEng folk coming to ALM with the same badge from 1 Apr 03 and diferant rates of pay for at least another year.

Always p me off that the RAF give after the tax man and take back before the tax man when told to shove it:mad:

T_M

But surely, the bung at 17 yr point is pointless......who is really going to leave with the pension within reach. To retain past 12 yr, how about "signing on bonus" in the same vein, repayable if you reach for black/yellow before the 17 yr point. After that, it all takes care of itself. Or have I missed something?

Escapee: Sympathize with your 12-year point dilemma - there will always be winners and losers when the "dosh is dished" (witness the FRR payments of 2001/2). Personal advice: If you are really considering PVR - do it now - there will be nothing worse than being bitter as you approach the big four-oh.

Generally crew room banter back here in blighty has even generated one suggestion that the Service would have been better off doing nothing at all. At least then there would have been less heartache for all those who are now disappointed.

Shandyman: Which level of the leadership are you faithless about? - Do you really think that anyone but Treasury mandarins really have a say in these issues. I cannot really see that Stn Cdrs ISK, DL, VN or NBN (new Budgens nearby) are really celebrating the fact that many of their boys are so p****d off.

FixedWingFaggot: (are you :sad: one by the way?) - Sorry mate - but if you are in beyond 22 years you have presumably accepted an offer of further service after due consideration. The downbanding of AEOp fs/macr WAS wrong, but we are long past that now. If you are considering PVR please see my comment to Escapee above.

Akula: "bah humbug"? The time criteria applied to this bonus matches exactly that applied to commissioned aircrew bonuses - (do you want equality or what?).

Gorilla: Much respect. Admire your bottle in PVR'ing. Question: as you are serving to age 47, have you received an offer of further service to age 55 and elected to wait, or was the Service still debating on whether to retain you or not? Either way, good luck.........

Cheezer: You, guy, really puzzle me - who would run your "Ltd Co" - all chiefs, no indians or vice-versa? What would the pay scales be and would you offer bonuses? Furthermore, be careful what you wish for - 60 AEOps is periously close to the average AEOp sqn strength on the kipper fleet. Please don't give " their airships" any more good ideas about re-shaping the maritime force.

Avtur: If you are who I think you are, the common sense nature of your post is completely unsurprising. Hope the arm is better, might (or might not) be seeing you soon.......... As I look out of the window of our sumptuous crew room, I can see a Peugeot 206CC with the lights left on.........

Keep smilin'* / moanin'*

*Delete as applicable

WarmInTheMiddle

I am engaged to age 47 as a result of being ground crew before becoming aircrew. I have said all along that I cannot wait until age 47 to leave. Indeed two years ago this month I was about to PVR. They decided to pay me 2 x £5K to keep me in until 01 Apr 03. Since then I have been given the usual carrot of wait one more year, secondary re-engagement is very competitive etc. It's just around the corner!!

I have waited to the last possible moment to leave. For the record, it's not about a lack of bonuses in the review. The review was the last piece of my jigsaw puzzle of life. A bonus would have kept me in obviously, but as an ageing commodity I have to leave before I am considered to be to old to employ. Even now in my chosen second career I am considered to be over age by some of the companies involved.

Age 47 is probably THE worst engagement the service ever offered to anyone. LOS 30 isn't much better either, means I will exit at age 48!!

I don't particularly want to leave, but I have been boxed into a corner with no way out. I would be happy to be extended to Age 50 or 55, as I would not have to worry about a second career. But then the ball isn't in my court.

I have a question: Are there any Airmen Aircrew out there engaged to Age 47? If so could you please e-mail me? Thanks.

Charlie L,

A hell of a lot quieter for the past few months, I wonder why that is? Oh, hang on.... How long have you been gone now? :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

My intention is to leave at the IPP. Consequently, my FRI (Free Resettlement Incentive) will be greatly received and has already been spent by my wife. It will in no way act as a retention incentive in my case - in fact many others may view it as extra incentive to leave at the 22 year point. It's BARKING mad.


Remember, dont' buy a house, don't by a car

Save all your money, and PVR :D

A few thoughts
 

Firstly, not everyone will always be pleased.

There was more in this package than i expected but some of the recommendations may be a long way off.

For the empowerment of MACR, who will become employable in SO3 slots etc. where are they going to get them from. Our lordships wont take guys from the front line to go sit at a desk.

I'm sure the MACR will enjoy the extra ACR's they will have to complete as WSOp leaders or whatever they will be called.

For any recruiting types down at Cranwell reading this your latest WSOp recruiting material is still way off the mark. For those who havn't seen it, it goes on about marine patrol aircraft and oil and gas installation surveillance. But it is very PC and EO. This is one area where the MACR need to get into and sort it out. The idea of AA, oops sorry NCA being involved in the recruiting process makes sense as some of the old duffers down there havn't got a clue.

Now as for the PA spine, i'll reserve judgement till I see the details and consult a financial advisor, if I ever get selected for it that is.

The biggest gripe has got to be the flying pay scandal, whether it goes up for NCA or down for the commisioned chaps matters not. The fact that it will have taken 7 years to implement is a bit of a joke. I'm sure some computer geek could have sorted that one out, or was there too many corners cut with the origional software to cut costs? The worst case i suppose is that the officers flying pay comes down to our level and I bet it won't be backdated to 1998, if you see what i mean. One thing that could have helped on the flying pay side was making the time between initial, middle and higher rates equal. Your officer gets his middle 4 years after his initial and higher 4 years after his middle, correct me if i'm wrong. While you wait 22 years for your top whack, so where is the equal opportunities in that one for additional pay.

I'll still be in till i'm 55 as I still enjoy the job, but certain aspects of this study may be a little divisive and I'm sure it was the same with the officer FRI's.

Have just heard that the long term plan is that eventually the air force will comprise of pilots and NC aircrew - no navs and whats more no comissioned AEOps/ALMs/AEngs, something about en-powering MACRs? Although many probably aren't the fussed, I imagine that there a few who have always seen airman aircrew as a stepping stone to getting a comission, ie failed pilot/navs who were offered AEOp/ALM and took it. Now that this opportunity has been taken away, my betting is that quite a few will say B*ll**ks to it and reaply to OASC again. Result - further lose due to one of the measures that was designed to retain people.

Just curious - what would be the effect of moving E3s & R1s to ISK, and MR2s to, oh I dunno, Waddo?

Better still - move the E3's to Lossie, the R1's to Wyton and the MR's to St.Mawgan.


Remember, dont' buy a house, don't buy a car

Save all your money, and PVR
;)

Gorrilla- hats of to you matey well done for sticking with your convictions.
Boots - spot on matey very very true.

Now for my own hunble opinion, the deal is good in some places and stinks in others.
Flying pay - what a load of bolox. I'm thinking of seeking some legal advice from an employment lawyer as to the legal arguement of change in TOS and implenetation of policy , is it discriminative and unfair etc any one interested in joining in ?

Promotion in WSOp branch , confirmed from horses mouth after april 1st all NCO Aircrew will be in the same pot on the same board despite there branch FS MACR requirements , mmm stinks me thinks

WSOp - thinly disguised to get excess ALM and Eng blokes on a Nimrod so they too can hurl every where
Loss of Commisioned slots to MACR , great about time we did something for the crown and anchors that were promoted over the last few years

Recruiting .. mmmm well the word from the DE is they wouldn't go near a WSOp job unless they were guaranteed there choice ie crewman alm etc

Bonus scheme , great maybe misplaced me thinks but im a winner and it hasnt enfluenced my decsision to stay in to 22 one jot well done airships
Will it make mor4e people sign on to IPP , I dont know but do the MOD care , me thinks they want a young professional team that the majority leave after 12 yrs and are repalced with new younger models who dont break so easily.

At the end of the day we all know that there are some hidden agenders here and were not being told the whole truth . Get rid of raer crew leaders , why I ask let pilots and WSO report on us mmmmmmm me thinks it's not going to work that well , it hasn't in the past !!!!

As for the dedicated physio for crewman , what a joke where we going to get these from , PEd staff and the medics are way under manned !!!!

Boys and Girls I put it to you this is just a stab at trying to address the problems and there seems to be some hidden agenders, on the face of it , its not bad put dig deeper and i think long term were in for a whole load of hurt.
Just wait to see what happens to the pension pot of gold .....
Any way off to do some more basic Vm at the School of excellence ... take care all in the gulf , fly safe and


all spelling mistakes are due to a temporary capacity problem at the moment


:rolleyes:

RC dear chap,
Had you been imbibing of strong liquor whilst typing your last as there appear, as probably in mine:D , quite a few typo's etc, however just be aware that one of the:

"great about time we did something for the crown and anchors that were promoted over the last few years" is now, god help us, very influential in where we are employed and from what I remember of him.................stroker!!...............watch your six young fella :p

The only accurate thing I have seen so far from the report is that us at the coalface percieve our lords and masters as a bunch of [email protected] me we are wrong...........20K at the 17 year point to stay till 22.....f@@k me readers:}

We have the "team" here in Wilts on friday and thanks to Tigs I will be asking the same question as regards 20K at 17 years but with a slightly differant slant to see what they have to say. However the new recruiting package is just utter tosh.

Guaranteed Wsop or my co@ks a kipper!! then a promise of retraining to something else................good grief ask the guys just trying to get from Rotarty to fixed wing how easy that is.....................................sirs you are full of pooh and will be caught out, as always.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Flying Pay
 

Always_broken

Didn't get the chance to ask this at our brief from the team, but you might wish to.

How is it that a computer system that has to be updated each year with new rates of pay can't cope with a flying pay change?

All that has to be accessed in the system is the rate (happens every year), and the point at which an individual changes band (a parameter that is already programmed into the system and could easily be changed).

I don't accept that this cannot be done. Having read the AFPRB report, they seem to be just as frustrated with the MOD's inability to impliment some of their recommendations simply because of computers systems.

At least if we had asked the AFPRB to set the rates we would know where we stand & have found what needed to be changed. It seems to me that our lords & masters used the computer problem to dodge the issue, the AFPRB where asked to look at other issues with the knowledge that they could not be acted on yet, but it wasn't done with flying pay! :mad:

BTW para 2.16
"For the future, DLA MCG pointed out that the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law gave everyone the right to belong to a trade union." - Just a thought:cool: