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nipva 23rd Oct 2020 14:30

KC135 tug?
 
I have recently seen a programme on television on the KC135 during which an account was made of a KC!35 towing an F4 that had had an engine failure during an Atlantic crossing and was unable to maintain height. According to the programme the F4 was plugged into the boom and then towed to landfall and a suitable airfield.
Does the KC135 boom have the facility to lock into the receiver's refuelling receptacle with such strength that it can tow an F4? If so how does a receiver normally break contact? I assume too that there is some form of weak link in the boom assembly to protect the tanker whichmust make towing a delicate manoeuvre. The other somewhat surprising mention in this account was that this F4 (J79 powered) could not maintain height even at 3000' on a single engine and had to be eased back up to 6000' as part of the tow. Most of my F4 time was on the Spey-engined variants where this definitely was not an issue and I don't recall it being an issue from my time on a J79 variant. In fairness this account did not elaborate on the nature of the emergency other than the single engine failure. I am not challenging the veracity of this story but I am very curious as to how it waa achieved mechanically.

Imagegear 23rd Oct 2020 14:44

Not an F4 but the mechanics must be the same:

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/time-kc-135-tanker-towed-badly-damaged-f-111-fighter-bomber-skies-vietnam/ ]Tanker Tow

​​​​​​​

ORAC 23rd Oct 2020 14:46


I have recently seen a programme on television on the KC135 during which an account was made of a KC!35 towing an F4 that had had an engine failure during an Atlantic crossing and was unable to maintain height. According to the programme the F4 was plugged into the boom and then towed to landfall and a suitable airfield.
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...par-1733187406

https://www.amc.af.mil/News/Features...e-vietnam-war/

Then, of course, there was Pardo's Push.....

https://www.historynet.com/pardos-pu...airmanship.htm



NutLoose 23rd Oct 2020 15:38

F4 story is here

https://tacairnet.com/2014/10/21/nor...-the-atlantic/

LTCTerry 23rd Oct 2020 18:06

I recall reading that if one engine was at least turning then a KC-135 could pull it for a while.

Canopy to tailhook has working. Nose in the tail pipe has worked. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Not quite the same, but I recall reading about a Mustang landing in a German field to pick up his partner who had parachuted safely. Not sure if that gets you a medal or a court martial...

charliegolf 23rd Oct 2020 18:28

The tug story was just on Smithsonian's, Air Warriors prog about the 135. They tugged for 3 hours. The boomer got an award for the skill he showed, given the F4's attitude and handling issues.

CG

OvertHawk 23rd Oct 2020 20:56


Originally Posted by LTCTerry (Post 10910383)
I recall reading that if one engine was at least turning then a KC-135 could pull it for a while.

Canopy to tailhook has working. Nose in the tail pipe has worked. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Not quite the same, but I recall reading about a Mustang landing in a German field to pick up his partner who had parachuted safely. Not sure if that gets you a medal or a court martial...

Depends on whether you get away with it and whether your boss likes you!

Airbubba 24th Oct 2020 00:33


Originally Posted by charliegolf (Post 10910400)
The boomer got an award for the skill he showed, given the F4's attitude and handling issues.

I think my attitude would be pretty good if that Boeing was helping get home! :ok:

nipva 24th Oct 2020 08:07

Thank you all for your replies but my main question 'Does the KC135 boom have the facility to lock into the receiver's refuelling receptacle?' remains unanswered. I assume that this facility must exist in some form in order to be able to tow but surely there must be some form of weak link in the boom assembly to protect the boom assembly (and the tanker) if the load becomes excessive. Clearly this facility is one advantage over the probe/drogue system. .

salad-dodger 24th Oct 2020 08:52


Originally Posted by nipva (Post 10910685)
Thank you all for your replies but my main question 'Does the KC135 boom have the facility to lock into the receiver's refuelling receptacle?' remains unanswered. I assume that this facility must exist in some form in order to be able to tow but surely there must be some form of weak link in the boom assembly to protect the boom assembly (and the tanker) if the load becomes excessive. Clearly this facility is one advantage over the probe/drogue system. .

Hi nipva. Yes, the boom is locked into the receiving receptacle. This is done by a hydraulically powered mechanism. And yes, there is a frangible link in the boom that will break. There are many stories of the end being left behind in the receptacle. The receiving aircraft I have worked with also have a system to force boom ejection if refuel pressure is excessive. I think around 75psi.

I don’t think the locking mechanism was ever intended to support towing an aircraft though.

Fareastdriver 24th Oct 2020 09:10

The link to the 135 operating in Vietnam has this quote.


"We have a thing that we do called locking the toggles," said Hickman. "When you lock the toggles on a receiver you can actually tow him. So we did that, and kept giving him fuel."

ORAC 24th Oct 2020 11:51

Section 8.2.6 and section 8.4 in toto.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1048313.pdf

AERIAL REFUELING SYSTEMS ADVISORY GROUP

Guidance document

Aerial Refueling Boom/Receptacle

8.2.6 Toggle Latches.

The receptacle cavity should be equipped with actuated toggle latches are specified in ATP- 3.3.4.5 paragraph 1.19 and ATP-3.3.4.5 D (D-3) to hold the boom in the locked position during aerial refueling. The toggle latches should function as required in paragraph 8.4 below.

8.4 Receptacle/UARRSI Toggle Latches

8.4.1 Toggle Latch Response Time. The toggle latches should latch or unlatch as specified in ATP-3.3.4.5 paragraph 1.19, item 5.d.

8.4.2 Tension Disconnect. The latch actuator should contain an integral relief mechanism to permit disconnects by forcing the latches open. The latch mechanism should hold the boom nozzle in the locked-in position as specified in ATP- 3.3.4.5 paragraph 1.19, item 5.

8.4.3 Toggles Spring Loaded Open. The receptacle toggle latches should be spring loaded to the open position in the event of toggle shaft breakage or loss of actuation power as specified in ATP-3.3.4.5 paragraph 1.19, item 5.c(1).

8.4.4 Toggle Shaft Structural Fuse. The toggle shafts should break under a tension force, produced by the tanker boom on disconnect as specified in ATP-3.3.4.5 paragraph 1.19, item 5.c.(2).

8.4.5 Operator Initiated Normal/Override. The tanker/receiver aircraft should be provided normal and override modes for latched and disconnect modes of the system.

You can buy a copy of ATP-3.3.4.5 (Stanag 7191) from the link below for $10

https://www.techstreet.com/standards...uct_id=1983202

NutLoose 24th Oct 2020 12:25


Originally Posted by LTCTerry (Post 10910383)
I recall reading that if one engine was at least turning then a KC-135 could pull it for a while.

Canopy to tailhook has working. Nose in the tail pipe has worked. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Not quite the same, but I recall reading about a Mustang landing in a German field to pick up his partner who had parachuted safely. Not sure if that gets you a medal or a court martial...


In March 1966, more than 2,000 troops of the NVA 95th Regiment, 325th Division, came down the trail to besiege a platoon of Green Berets and several hundred South Vietnamese in the A Shau Valley, near the Laotian border. Diving into the mountains surrounding the base, one pilot said, “was like flying inside Yankee Stadium with the people in the bleachers firing at you with machine guns.” During a March 10 attack on the NVA, Skyraider pilot Maj. Dafford W. “Jump” Myers of the 602nd Fighter Squadron (Commando) radioed, “I’ve been hit and hit hard.” He crash-landed his blazing Spad on the base airstrip. With enemy troops within 20 yards of Myers’ position and the nearest rescue chopper 30 minutes out, Maj. Bernard F. “Bernie” Fisher, an A-1E pilot of the 1st Air Commando Squadron out of Pleiku, told everyone, “I’m going in.”

The runway was so littered with battle trash that Fisher had to abort his first approach. On his second try he stopped at the end of the strip and rolled back to Myers, peppered with small-arms fire all the way. “The enemy was so close,” Fisher noted, “I was afraid a couple of them might jump aboard my Skyraider before Myers could make it.” The prop wash from Fisher’s Spad blew Myers off the plane’s wing. Fisher throttled back to idle, dragged Myers headfirst into the side seat, then revved up and rolled, dodging debris to get airborne. They landed at Pleiku with 19 holes in the Skyraider. Fisher received the Medal of Honor for his heroics. His Skyraider is at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton, Ohio.
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-du...ps-in-vietnam/

nipva 25th Oct 2020 08:44

Thanks S-D. got there eventually!

SilsoeSid 24th Aug 2023 11:00

Tanker Towing
 
Having finally ditched Sky my viewing has become much more diverse. As a consequence I stumble upon many long lost programmes one of which is Steve Canyon on Plex.
The mission in Ser 1 Ep1 is described as 'an actual mission flown by the US Air Force, all information, material and incidents contained herein are now declassified' and shows three Convair 102 Delta Dagger being trialled to be towed by a B-29 Superfortress in order to increase the state of intercept readiness by hooking up, fuelling up and closing down their engines.

All well and good, it's TV, but then as if by magic, I see (get fed) an Instagram post about six KC-135s escorting 24 F-4s across the Atlantic to Germany in 1983, when one of the F-4s developed problems including losing one engine, with it ending up being ' towed 'to shore' thereby saving the aircraft and two crew.


Knowing what little I know about air to air refuelling, this surely isn't really possible due to the breakaway systems in place.....or is it! Could there actually be an override and strong enough latch on & hose system for these very circumstances? Is the central station stronger that the outboards for example?
Rather than delve into interwebery rabbit holes, I thought putting it out here for those that know to pass on their experience and knowledge to be the best way to get the gen on this.

Expecting a very short two lettered thread... Thanks all.

ORAC 24th Aug 2023 11:11

https://tacairnet.com/2014/10/21/nor...-the-atlantic/

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/time...skies-vietnam/


SilsoeSid 24th Aug 2023 11:23

Wow! Thanks ORAC.
Locking toggles... prob what we see, one of which gets stuck, in the Steve Canyon episode.

bobward 24th Aug 2023 14:05

For a really bizarre event look up Prado's push on Google. Absolutely amazing!

sycamore 24th Aug 2023 15:26

I recall reading a magazine/comic,possibly `The Eagle` that had a story about the Korean War,where an F-86 got damaged over N Korea,eventually flamed out,then the wingman pushed the nose of his F-86 into the gliding jet,and pushed them both back over friendly lines......

Rob Hirst 24th Aug 2023 16:20


Originally Posted by sycamore (Post 11490772)
I recall reading a magazine/comic,possibly `The Eagle` that had a story about the Korean War,where an F-86 got damaged over N Korea,eventually flamed out,then the wingman pushed the nose of his F-86 into the gliding jet,and pushed them both back over friendly lines......

If you look up "Pardo's Push" on Wikipedia for details of what bobward mentioned, there's a link at the bottom to the F-85 incident info....

DogTailRed2 24th Aug 2023 18:34

I guess that begs the question could the fighter push the KC135?

DaveReidUK 24th Aug 2023 19:13


Originally Posted by sycamore (Post 11490772)
I recall reading a magazine/comic,possibly `The Eagle` that had a story about the Korean War,where an F-86 got damaged over N Korea,eventually flamed out,then the wingman pushed the nose of his F-86 into the gliding jet,and pushed them both back over friendly lines......

Presumably an F-86D, or later, with a radome - sticking your wingman's jetpipe into the nose of an earlier Sabre would probably be a good way to guarantee your own flameout. :O

sycamore 24th Aug 2023 19:33

RH,#21,Thanks for that...JRR was certainly a `hard character`....

DRUK,don`t think `D`s were in the Korean War.....

megan 25th Aug 2023 05:46


Presumably an F-86D, or later, with a radome
The pilot, James Robinson Risner, regular mount was an F-86E 51-2824, the D not used in Korea as far as I'm aware Dave, would have stuck the pronounced upper lip/radar into the tail pipe is my assumption. The event in question,

On September 15, Risner's flight escorted F-84 Thunderjet fighter-bombers attacking a chemical plant on the Yalu River near the East China Sea. During their defense of the bombers, Risner's flight overflew the MiG base at Antung Airfield, China. Fighting one MiG at nearly supersonic speeds at ground level, Risner pursued it down a dry riverbed and across low hills to an airfield 35 miles (56 km) inside China. Scoring numerous hits on the MiG, shooting off its canopy, and setting it on fire, Risner chased it between hangars of the Communist airbase, where he shot it down into parked fighters.

On the return flight, Risner's wingman, 1st Lt. Joseph Logan, was struck in his fuel tanks by anti-aircraft fire over Antung. In an effort to help him reach Kimpo, Risner attempted to push Logan's aircraft by having him shut down his engine and inserting the nose of his own jet into the tailpipe of Logan's, an unprecedented and untried maneuver. The object of the maneuver was to push Logan's aircraft to the island of Cho Do off the North Korean coast, where the Air Force maintained a helicopter rescue detachment. Jet fuel and hydraulic fluid spewed out from the damaged Sabre onto Risner's canopy, obscuring his vision, and turbulence kept separating the two jets. Risner was able to re-establish contact and guide the powerless plane out over the sea until fluids threatened to stall his own engine. Near Cho Do, Logan bailed out after calling to Risner, "I'll see you at the base tonight." Although Logan came down close to shore and was a strong swimmer, he became entangled in his parachute shrouds and drowned. Risner shut down his own engine in an attempt to save fuel, but eventually his engine flamed out and he glided to a deadstick landing at Kimpo.

On September 21, he shot down his fifth MiG, becoming the 20th jet ace. In October 1952 Risner was promoted to major and named operations officer of the 336th FIS. Risner flew 108 missions in Korea and was credited with the destruction of eight MiG-15s, his final victory occurring January 21, 1953

DogTailRed2 25th Aug 2023 22:03

On the subject or aerial towing
https://scontent-lcy1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...rg&oe=64ED6E0B

Ninthace 26th Aug 2023 09:30

Interesting. Assuming there is no quick release mechanism attached to the propellor, how does one put it on the ground again other than as a combination? Letting go from the front end would mean trying to push the rope through the air, which I know from my glider days, does not work well, or risking damage to the tugee or fouling of a control surface.


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