Can anyone date and place this photo, please?
 

An ex-colleague airline pilot has just died, aged 88, and his daughter, while sifting through old photos, is trying to work out when and where this one was taken, and what he was doing there:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4c5feaeca.jpeg

This gent was born in May 1934. It seems his only time in the RAF was during a period of National Service, during which he almost certainly got his Wings. But we don't know how old he was at the time the photo was taken. And we don't know if his National Service was straight from school or (possibly) from uni.

The semi-formal photo looks to have been taken onboard a ship - possibly on embarkation from the UK overseas for flying training. if so, Canada or Southern Rhodesia?

Thanks in anticipation...

Cap badge looks post 1952 to me.

Hi chris,

sorry to hear about your colleague.

I can’t help regarding location-but date I reckon mid 1950’s.

My reasoning being that as he doesn’t have his wings, that picture will have been taken in his first few years of service. And after 1952 as alluded to by chevron.

Looks like he’s a Flying Officer in the photo (hard for me to be sure vs pilot officer as im looking at the photo on my iPhone).

If born in 1934 and joined age 18-ish as a Pilot officer, adding a few years to get to Flying Officer, would indicate a mid 1950’s date.

Or, if he joined as a Flying Officer after Uni, aged no less than 21, then that would suggest a mid 1950’s date.

Edited to add;

His daughter should be able to obtain his service records HERE

She should be able to obtain units he served at etc as well as when he got promoted to various ranks-which will hopefully help.

Also, details of anyone commissioning are published in the London Gazette-so that should indicate when he got his commission and in what rank he commissioned. Website HERE


Hope that helps.

I believe that the bottom button below the belt was removed in 1951 and although this photo appears to show one I think that it is just the belt riding up over the button normally hidden under the belt. This therefore means the photo is post 1951 and I would agree it appears to be mid 1950's given the Queen's crown on his cap.

Yes, and he was barely 17 at the Queen's accession.

Thanks. Would the change of cap have been swift after the Queen acceded in 1952, or did the wheels turn but slowly?

Is there any weather significance in what seem to be brown leather gloves?

Brown 'kid' gloves were normally worn for parades etc, nothing to do with weather. They were standard issue when I got my No 1 uniform (still got mine issued in 1979 and rarely worn) but you had to buy your own hat.
Prof Plum: the rank braid appears to be wide enough for Fg Off.

Could that be Liverpool?

Indeed it does, Prof.

An ex-RAF friend was also unsure if the ring was broad enough to be Flying Officer.

The London Gazette has a Pilot Officer of the same surname and initials, and with a BSc, being promoted to Flying Officer, effective 8/2/59 (seniority 8/11/58). According to his own all-too-brief account, this gent was flying in an airline by 1960 and had previously done a spell on an Avro 19 (Anson) for Decca Navigation.

He clearly admits to doing National Service, which I understand was 18 months. No mention of staying on in the RAF afterwards. If the Gazette entry is he, that would imply he joined the RAF for National Service with a university degree in 1957. Could he have been immediately commissioned as Pilot Officer? I haven't found the commissioning date yet.

Thanks. I've just got home and looked on my tablet and agree with you.

Chris - Glad it helped. A Pilot Officer braid is pretty narrow. On an old Photograph, I think would be less obvious than in your photo.

The dates you have from the Gazette I think you can take as fact. I joined in the mid 2000's and at the time, with a degree you graduated as a Flying Officer, with direct entrants (those without a degree) graduating as a Pilot Officer. That said, things may have been very different in the 1950's - I'm sure there are plenty on this forum who's experience goes back further than mine who can assist. It is also possible to be sponsored at Uni, whereby you get commissioned as a Pilot Officer whilst studying, and subsequent promotion to Flying Officer after that.

I think a subject access request at the first link I posted earlier would really help. If your colleague is a Pre-wings Flying Officer, then knowing the date that he finished flying training (and therefore got his wings), and knowing the date of his Flying Officer promotion will help narrow down the date range.

Not sure what his daughter has - but your colleague will have been given a commissioning scroll, and a certificate when he was awarded his wings. Mine are dated so I assume his would be too. I doubt he'd have thrown those away or anything.

edited to add;

His Flying Logbook would also indicate when he got his wings, as well as last flight in the RAF. Mine had a “record of service” section at the back which details which units I served on, with dates.

Based on my Father's National Service in the RAF in 1953-1955, it may have been for 2 years, rather than 18 months. Either way, the OP states that the chap's only time in the RAF was during National Service - if so, would he really have undertaken flying training if he was only in for 18 or 24 months? Maybe he did his flying training with an airline immediately post National Service?

The RAF did train some National Service Pilots - they qualified for their 'wings' and left soon afterwards,unless transferring to regular service (which I am sure a proportion would have done).
When I was an ATC cadet - my Sqn CO was an ex N.S. Pilot.
Our Sqn Adj was an ex Pathfinder Air Gunner DFM or DFC.

Certainly possible; my father did flying training in Canada as National Service in the mid-50s on Harvards and Shooting Stars then was converted to RAF Vampires at Valley on his return. When he worked for RR after his National Service he joined a reserve sqn flying Vampires and Meteors then shortly after rejoined on a PC ending up flying Hnters in RAFG.

Guy Clapshaw wrote a book about his experiences as a N.S. Pilot (A Likely Story) - a very entertaining read.
One of his fellow students on his course he described as 'The Car Salesman' - I often wondered if it was my old ATC CO - as he was a senior sales exec with a large car dealership by the mid 60's :)
Guy left at the end of his NS service and eventually became an airline pilot with many funny stories along the way - worth reading just for his stint working for an Undertaker :)
IIRC Early Editions of the book might have some extra chapters compared to reprints (or is that for his 2nd book And Thats Another Story) - I have not read either for a long time.
Some of the stories may even be true :)

Am most grateful to you guys for your speedy and pertinent responses. Yes, his logbooks - as always with aircrew - should answer many questions, if they can be found. The problem for his daughters may be that he died suddenly and unexpectedly just after arranging his wife's funeral.

If the photo above was taken when outbound for overseas flight training, I think the ring must have denoted Acting Plt Off. OTOH, if it were taken at some point on his return journey, I'm wondering if he might have already been promoted to Fg Off. But what about the Wings? if already awarded, would they not have been worn on that type of uniform?

Chris,

Yes, wings when awarded are worn on that uniform.

Those that went overseas for training, I have no idea when they were actually awarded their wings. Perhaps when they returned to England? Then they need to head off to the tailors to have the wings sewn on.

was there not a period when wings were awarded after aft? So, he could have completed bft, become a substantive Plt Off, but still awaiting wings.

Oh sorry he looks like he is sporting Fg Off braid. Is the background Malta?

Would agree looks like an F/O. After Basic in '63 got my wings and was a P/O so think most before me would be similar. Didn't get F/o till 2nd tour.

[QUOTE=Top West 50;.... Is the background Malta?[/QUOTE]
He's in Blues; any time I was in Malta I was in KD, but I can't remember if that was seasonal.

Depended on the OC at the time; KD could be authorised for Apr or May. When I went to Cyprus in Apr, we were issued KD straight away.

Probably one of the better known examples is Frederick Forsyth, who served 1956-58 and flew Vampires.

Thank you 212man, and to others who made the same point - I have learnt something new. I am amazed that the UK taxpayer paid for flying training for NS recruits.

I'd suggest it's F/O braid, and lower flat button (exposed below belt) and St Edward's (Queens) crown clearly indicate post-1952.
Blues and brown gloves may indicate northern hemisphere.
Lack of wings indicate pre-flying training.
Background doesn't look like Valletta or anywhere en-route to southern Africa but does look reminiscent of a colonial Naval yard. Doesn't remind me of Liverpool either so possibly not a departure.

From the details provided I'd therefore suggest a completely un-educated plump of an age 21 (post-uni graduation) deferred National Service pilot trainee candidate for the NATO Flying Training Course arriving at Halifax, Nova Scotia c.1954-55; perhaps aboard the Empress of Scotland or similar and moored either in the river or at Dartmouth/Alderney landing?

Just a suggestion to stimulate the debate - happy to stand corrected by those closer to the truth!


And to add to 212man's example- William Woollard (of original Top Gear fame) was also a NS pilot; who undertook the NFTC in Canada. (In his case, pre-University, so as an Acting P/O and at age 18.)

Thanks again, everyone. There are three entries in the London Gazette which are confirmed as relating to his National Service:
Cadet Pilot 30/4/57;
Acting Pilot Officer regraded to Flying Officer, 30/4/58;
(RAF Reserve Officers) Pilot Officer to Flying Officer, 8/2/59 (seniority 8/11/58).

A photo of him with a RCAF Chipmunk (with bubble canopy) has confirmed that he did some or all of his flight training in Canada.

Which all lines up nicely, albeit slightly later than my estimate above. The NATO Air Training Plan (NATP - ignore my reference to the NFTC, which is the more recent initialism) ran from 1950 and ended in 1958, so your colleague would have been on one of the latter courses. Chipmunks were used on the Primary Training School at RCAFS Centralia from 1954; progression from there would have been to No1. FTS on Harvards, then Advanced Flying Training; probably on the CT-133 Silver Star (Canadair licence-built, RR Nene-engined, version of the T-33 Shooting Star) and possibly at No.3 AFS, RCAFS Gimli. Perhaps the photo is following promotion to F/O, leaving or arriving back from a spot of UK leave between courses; before the presentation of wings.

And the transfer to the reserve on return was a well trodden path. Of the more well-known NS pilots, Norman Tebbit (who trained in the UK) and William Woollard both went on to fly Meteors in the reserve with 604 Sqn. William Woollard is still with us at 83 - having survived (and actually apparently enjoyed!) the Meatbox....

Good luck with your continuing investigations and condolences to family and friends.

Thanks, SF! That's very interesting. The good news is that his daughter seems to have access to some or all of his logbooks, so we should be able to learn if he followed the type progression in Canada that you've outlined.

I'm now most grateful to someone who saw this thread and offered to look at the immigration records of sailings, given the subject's name. He has come up with the following:

Departed Southampton on 4 Jun 1957 onboard 'Liberte' of cie Gle Transatlantique, bound for New York.
Returned from Montreal, arriving Liverpool on 3 Aug 1958 onboard 'Empress of France' of Canadian Pacific Steamship Line.

So, he was only at each of the four ports once. Does anyone recognise those buildings in the background, bearing in mind that both sailings were in summer?

I worked for 10 years for a guy that was a National Service pilot and finished up on Meteors. Not for the first time, I think that is why I got a job.

In case it helps, here's the full width of the background in the original image:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4ec17e695f.jpg

So is it Southampton or New York in 1957?
Or Montreal or Liverpool in 1958?

The St Edward’s Crown (incorrectly called “Queen’s Crown” by some) was not authorised until 11 Nov 1954 under Air Ministry Order A274. Even then, old stocks of badges were to be used first before the new badges/buttons with St Edward’s Crowns were issued. So this photo is likely post Nov 1954 :ok:

It's not the 'St Edward's Crown' - It's the Edwardian Crown.

As opposed to the 'Tudor Crown'.

LJ - agreed; we'd already narrowed the image to 1957 or 1958, My feeling (mainly due to the apparent F/O rank, but also because the 5-bar rail is hugely reminiscent of the Empress of France's upper promenade/lifeboat deck - admittedly a long shot!) is the return journey in 1958; but I don't think it's Liverpool - the Empress of France would have probably discharged passengers at Princess landing stage, then berthed at the Canadian Pacific quay in Gladstone Dock; it doesn't look like contemporary images of either. Similarly, the skyline doesn't remind me of Montreal. So rather at a loss for the location. She also may possibly have stopped off at Quebec, or bunkered at Halifax, before the Atlantic crossing? C'mon, Ppruners with transatlantic crossing experience!

ExA2 - disagreed; whilst the Tudor crown was named after the Tudor dynasty, the St Edward's Crown was named after Edward the Confessor, canonised in 1161.

To return to the subject in hand; one more London Gazette entry for you, Chris - transfer to the reserve noted on 8th Nov 1958 (recorded in the 28th Nov Supplement). This corroborates with the seniority of promotion to Flying Officer in the reserve, at your post #25; but also signifies the date that the National Service period ended.

I did wonder if any ship afficionados might be able to distinguish between the deck rails of the Liberté and the Empress of France !

Thanks for the extra Gazette entry, from which I infer you worked out the name. If his National Service did not end (officially) till about 3 months after his return to Blighty, one wonders what he might have been doing in the interim. Am hoping his logbook will provide the answer, but any suggestions would be appreciated.

Photo of the Liberté's railings. Looks very similar.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3bd0614715.jpg

RMS Empress of France (1928 - 1960)
Photo courtesy of
LIVERPOOL SHIPS The Canadian Pacific liner EMPRESS OF FRANCE (ex DUCHESS OF BEDFORD) of 1928
quoting an article in the Liverpool Echo, April 1958.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2de206e38e.jpg
(Alongside the Canadian Pacific berth at Montreal, date unspecified)

Thanks, I42. This boat deck is also pictured as having 5 steel bars below the rail. Similar to the Liberté...

Just an observation:

La Liberte does not appear to have a teak rail, whereas the Empress of France and the OP's original image show a teak rail.

IG

Exactly the photo of the EoF that I was working from! Also; the Liberte appears to have a lower bottom rung; no toeboard and the top rail is fitted above the bracket. Top rail on the OP photo is fitted flush, with an integral (inset) bracket in the underside of the teak rail. Apologies for getting us into the weeds of ships' railings!

As for what the subject was doing in the 3 months between return and transfer to the reserve - I suspect (if the photo is indeed the return journey) that there was 14 days disembarkation leave, a(nother) wings parade (trainees would also have been entitled to the Canadian NATO wings on completion, but this could not be worn on UK uniform), tailor's parade, admin, de-kitting, fitting for a finest demob suit - not to mention some bulling, buffing, painting and general military waiting around; just to remind the recipients that a year or two of learning to fly in Canada actually constituted National Service!

On a more serious note; Chris, as you say, I did gather the name; and having read the additional information thus available, it was quite the life and career. When the time is right and if the family wish, it would be great to share some wider details (perhaps also on the civil threads); people such as your colleague deserve to be remembered - which is exactly why I like (hope) to help with some of the historical threads where I can. I'm straying into the realms of speculation with this thread now; so as before, best wishes and thoughts to family and friends.

Thanks, Squipdit Fashions and Imagegear. On the basis of what you've identified, it seems to be the Empress of France and, therefore, the return journey from Montreal to Liverpool in 1958.

Any necessary bunkering at Quebec or Halifax would have been an opportunity for a photo, light permitting, but I wonder if he would have still been wearing uniform at that point. (How times have changed!) I reckon Quebec might have taken around 10 hours' sailing from Montreal; Halifax a couple of days.

Due to the lack of skyscrapers New York might be the least likely.