King's Commission
 

As Cranwell seems to graduate more often than Dartmouth or Sandhurst these days, I guess some "light blue" will be among the first recipients of a King's Commission - or at least the first for 70 years......

Any other changes envisaged? Crowns on Wings and brevets?

Black armbands on No1s for the duration of Court Mourning?

I remember visiting the Royal Mint a few years ago, and being told that as soon as they heard the news of the Sovereign's demise, all production stopped pending re-working for C III R (who was thought at the time might be G VII R)

A very very sad time, but as ever, the devil is in the detail.

RIP Ma'am

God Save The King.

In 1952/3 My father was issued a set of Queen's crown buttons for his No 1 uniform.

He gave me the King's crown brass ones - If I was still in I could have made use of them.

When I joined BRNC in September 1973, woollie pullies were still not naval uniform. We were issued with our uniforms from stock at Wrangaton. These included new blue battledress with king's buttons. I dread to think how much stock they must have had as it was over 20 years after HM's accession!

The crown design does not necessarily change when a new sovereign accedes. Not sure what happened when Queen Victoria came to the throne, but, on her demise, the ledgers of the Royal Army Clothing Department were stirred to great emphasis and detail as to the very different crown to be used henceforth for Edward ..... somebody was very keen indeed to make a big change. Hence what has become known, incorrectly, as a King's crown, retained more or less unchanged until Her Late Majesty became Queen.

The actual change to King's took a very long time to complete: massive stocks to use up, old soldiers loth to part with their Queen's cap badge, worn smooth with age, and some regiments using rather different crowns such as Guelphic for historical reasons. It is quite possible that some old or senior soldiers went to war in 1914 sporting what has become known as a Queen Victoria's crown.

Perhaps not for officers under training at BRNC, but in everyday use in the Fleet in 1968 I am reliably informed.

Additionally, and as LB so clearly points out, there should in any case be no drama about the continuing use of the St Edward's Crown, as opposed to the Tudor Crown, and I suspect that it would be necessary for our new monarch to initiate or approve any change involving vast cost and no little expense. In any case, perhaps on a more subtle level, I can't imagine there would ever be any rush for officers in possession of, say, a family heirloom sword adorned with one crown or the other to feel the need to replace it!

Jack

I recall my late brother, who got his wings in 51/52 at Cranners (63rd. Entry) was very very proud that he was entitled to wear the Kings Crown version.

I also recall during my training (62-63) the most coveted thing was to obtain an RAF cap badge with the kings crown (even though we were the Queens men) on and burnish it to an ultra smooth finish. I kept mine until my cap badge was replaced by the exclusive WO version.

Long live the King.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....44c49ed3f.jpeg

There is NO such thing as a 'Kings Crown' or a 'Queens Crown'. They are the Tudor Crown and the Edwardian Crown.

It is up to the Monarch which she prefers.

Do keep up: see my previous.

As a broader perspective, Victoria's was different from Elizabeth's, so we have at least three versions. I am certain that Edward VII was very keen to enforce a new design because the paper trail is clear. "Queen Victoria's" had undergone a lot of distortions during her long reign, possibly because the non-metal versions were hand-sewn. Up to the Sovereign which he/ she prefers.

I understand that King Charles III has opted for the Tudor Crown.

A source would be helpful, especially considering that it's early days!

Jack

Yes please

Looks like it was being discussed/disclosed earlier in the year, with The Telegraph reporting it and others reporting on The Telegraph
https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...ews-latest-ont

(Telegraph site requires subscription to view)

The Cypher that King Charles has chosen uses the king's crown which presumably will be carried through to all other uses including uniforms

King Charles reveals his royal cypher which will appear on coins and stamps (msn.com)

See post 4 and 7! Not KINGS crown! Tudor crown as a cipher. I have medals showing the Queen wearing both.

The Tudor Crown and St Edwards Crown have always been stylised to various extents on our uniforms and Royal Cyphers. Just look at the differences on the Royal Cyphers:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7bf9e2363.jpeg

Now look at the Crown on His Majesty’s tie pin and you will see yet another crown shape - probably closest to Edward VII’s but still different:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0215933d4.jpeg

But then look at buttons on Senior Service uniforms and they look more like Her Majesty’s Cypher:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ef45e0600.jpeg

This is one of the 1825 buttons - a King is on the throne and the Crown looks like what some still insist on calling “Queen’s Crowns”!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....67d6e5838.jpeg


So, who knows what will end up on our uniforms and on our flying badges (never a ‘brevet’ teeteringhead - that is a certificate or licence!). What we do know is that it is King Charles’s choice and once his dear mother, and our most majestic Queen, has been laid to rest then I’m sure we’ll find out.

On my commissioning, my dad gave me his forage cap, with Tudor Crown, which he bought in Morgan's Arcade in Cardiff in 1942. I wore that throughout my commissioned service till 2012. He gave me his greatcoat, with Tudor crown Brass buttons bought again in 1942, which I wore for the same period. I also had his mess dress buttons on my mess kit. These were often commented on by Air Officers who thought it was good that continuity prevailed. It is the crown we wear, not Kings nor Queens, but the Crown. The design of our crests and badges reflect the cipher of the current Monarch, but any depiction is acceptable. I was proud to re-use my Dad's uniform, it was such good quality that it could still be used today, 80 years later.

In fact, looking at His Majesty’s tie pin closer makes me think it is actually his grandfather’s - HM King George VI.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....043f0a678.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....bb815d446.jpeg

So, I suspect this is all speculation anyway. Her Majesty ascended in February 1952 and Her Royal Cypher was released in July 1952. Therefore, it is likely that His Majesty’s, which will need to go through the normal heraldic policy of the College of Arms, will likely not be here until late 2022 at the earliest.

A good spot ............... marvellous continuity. Well done.

langleybaston - thanks, I found another example of the same HM King George VI Royal Cypher here too:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....45e293095.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ee2c214ab.jpeg

LJ, If the King can wear previous ciphers, he has given us the precedence to do do as well!